Topic: what are the benchmarks in creating bir taste?

[haldi]

For the past seven years I have visited Indian Takeaway kitchens
I made friends with quite a few chefs and been shown just about everything I wanted to know about their cooking.
There are recipes on this site which will get you an average takeaways flavour
Average takeaways take little trouble, and use ingredients identical to you and me

But you can't get the the flavour of the best ones, because the base cannot be replicated at home
It is because of the flavoured oil used in the base
The oil may be flavoured in different ways
Fried chicken ,chips, poppadoms, bhajees, samosas, pakora, paneer
A combination of the above flavours could be in it, and it needs a huge quantity cooked
The impact on the finished base is immense
This is real

The bases I have been given, stand head and shoulders above my version, using "fresh" ingredients

Of course technique is important too, But I have assumed most of us are doing that right
The most important thing is the first reduction of curry base
You must cook until dry

I'm not saying give up, but if you want to progress beyond this culinary wall, then you have to think in terms of huge wastage to produce your oil
Personally, I don't think it's worth it
It's enough to know, why I'm stuck

[Peripatetic Phil]

For the past seven years I have visited Indian Takeaway kitchens ... But you can't get the the flavour of the best ones, because the base cannot be replicated at home.  It is because of the flavoured oil used in the base ... The impact on the finished base is immense.  This is real.

OK, very interesting observation, Haldi.  But have you ever managed to acquire a portion of their base and cook with it at home ?  If so, have you /then/ been able to replicate the BIR flavour.

The most important thing is the first reduction of curry base.  You must cook until dry

This is also interesting.  I seem to recall that when we were doing "Madras 2011" and using the Taz base, that was also a required technique, but I confess I did not continue with it (either with the Taz base or with the "reduce until dry" technique) and yet my wife and I still feel that my curries are equal to, or better than, those of my local BIR, which is a pretty good BIR in its own right, although like most it does have its good periods and its less good ones, presumably associated with change of chef.  Certainly I can consistently exceed its less good periods, and equal its good ones.  Mick ("Curry Barking Mad") also reported :

I still stand by what I said, the Taz base relies on the first base being reduced to such a level that the oil fries the spices once the majority of water has been boiled off.

The previously accepted 'normal' method does not need this as the spices are fried/fused in oil prior to the base going in the pan. From then on you could add all the base in one go if you wish and reduce or add it at a chefs spoon at a time for all the difference it makes.  I have seen chefs do this with no difference in taste in the final curry. Only my opinion from what I have seen.

** Phil.

[Les]

Just been watching Dip's video's again, And he does not reduce the first ladel of base at all, In fact he just seem's to throw it all in after cooking out the spices for about 20/30sec's, So maybe it don't matter how you do it ;D (As CBM said). Seem's like each chef has his own way of doing things.

HS

[Peripatetic Phil]

Just been watching Dip's video's again, And he does not reduce the first ladle of base at all, In fact he just seems to throw it all in after cooking out the spices for about 20/30sec's, So maybe it don't matter how you do it ;D (As CBM said). Seems like each chef has his own way of doing things.

I think that Ramirez has hit the nail on the head in the other thread :

Say, for example, we are testing hot/cold base, there is a danger that this might not make as big a difference as it should purely because other areas of our technique/method are not correct. If you asked a BIR chef to do the same test, the difference could be far more discernible because their technique/method is sound and every other element of the dish is well executed, if that makes sense (?).

Which in this context could mean that full reduction is essential if (say) the spices are not already bhooned; it may make little or no difference at all if they are already bhooned.  In other words, Mick's point, already cited above.

** Phil.

[emin-j]

This thread seems to have sparked up the interest again 
Sorry to repeat what I have already said and everyone has their own idea as to what they believe is 'The Taste'
Our favourite T/A consistently beats all local T/A's for flavour.

They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes.
They do not use higher heat than I have at home using our normal Gas Hob.
They do not have excess Oil in the finished dish
They do not reduce the first ladle of Base

They do have that wonderful flavour and aroma that is still in my Car for about two days after I collected it from the T/A 

I have been making a Madras Curry almost every weekend since I joined the Forum,I have tried a fair few Base Recipes and different Madras Recipes,I can at least match the local T/A's on flavour but not the one I mentioned earlier.
The best T/A Curry's seem to me to be lightly Spiced in flavour and light in consistency but with a very Savoury lip smacking flavour up front, and that Aroma !.......mmmm I think I'll go and get some Base out the Freezer  ;D

[Cory Ander]

And therein (regarding the various replies to this thread) lies the crux of the problem (and of this forum) in answering your question ELW!


• Someone says it's all to do with the base; but someone else disagrees; they say it's all about "technique"
• Someone says they use previously used ("spicy") oil; someone else disagrees; their BIR "never" uses used oil
• Someone says it's important to "reduce" the first amount (ladle, chef's spoon, etc) of base; someone else disagrees; they say their BIR "just chucks it in"
• Someone says it's important to heat the base before adding it to the curry; but someone else disagrees; their BIR NEVER uses heated base
• Someone says it's important to use high temperatures; but someone else disagrees; they say their BIR uses far lower temperatures
• Someone else says......AD INFINITUM!  :

And both, allegedly, have "witnessed" these diammetrically opposed practices at their favourite BIR! 

So, the only REALISITC way for individuals to progress is (IMO) to:


• Be very aware of what YOU are personally trying to reproduce (e.g. YOUR favourite BIR curry...either from present days or past?)
• Take notice of all of the (mostly contradictory) statements and observations, made by various members, and consider the merits of there statements and observations as they may apply to YOU and YOUR quest
• But, FIRST AND FOREMOST, BEFRIEND THE STAFF at your favourite BIR
• Get yourself into their kitchen, talking to their chef(s)
• See, FOR YOURSELF, how they cook your favourite curry
• Get THEM to show YOU how to cook it YOURSELF
• Be aware of any missing pieces of information from what they say to you (i.e. don't take things for granted...e.g. that "this is what is in the base"...see it made first hand)
• Then, practice, practice, and then practice some some more (which might be what SL was alluding in his previous post?) to perfect YOUR favourite BIR curry at home!

If you pay too much attention to, or try to make too much sense of, members' posts on this forum, you'll probably go mental in the process! 

Anywhat, that's MY two farthings worth (which is probably about all it is worth!)!  ;D

Footnote:

For me, I am trying to replicate decent BIR curries from the 70s and 80s.  I place particular credence to those members who:


• have similar experiences and similar pursuits
• have convincing experience and knowledge of practices of BIR curries and their preparation at that time
• have actually been in the kitchens of their favourite BIRs, at that time, and of others since

All others I take with a pinch of salt because I feel their pursuits and experiences are clearly far different than mine.

[haldi]

They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes.

It may be in the base though

OK, very interesting observation, Haldi.  But have you ever managed to acquire a portion of their base and cook with it at home ?  If so, have you /then/ been able to replicate the BIR flavour.

Yes it comes out perfectly
Aroma and flavour

and I agree with Cory Ander

Find out how your local cooks
That's what I've done, but clearly chefs cook differently

I love reading any first hand observations

[Cory Ander]

No High heat,No Spiced Oil (other than Ghee melted in),No 'special' additives unless it was in the Spice Mix 
It tasted lovely and I just can't get close to this one  .......They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes.
They do not use higher heat than I have at home using our normal Gas Hob.
They do not have excess Oil in the finished dish
They do not reduce the first ladle of Base

So how DO they do it EminJ?  You're obviously missing SOMETHING (ingredients, technique, or otherwise!) 

Perhaps you can get back there and ask them? 

[Cory Ander]

Let me expand on your points, if I may?:

No 'special' additives unless it was in the Spice Mix

Have you SEEN them make their spice mix?

They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes

Fair enough comment but, do they use it in their base, as Haldi has questioned?  And have you SEEN them make their base?

They do not use higher heat than I have at home using our normal Gas Hob

I find this VERY hard to believe!  The output (in energy terms) must be FAR higher than that of a "normal" (presumably "domestic") gas hob!  Even though the flames don't look "ferocious"

They do not have excess Oil in the finished dish

Of course, by definition, "excess" is too much (but "too much" is better than "too little", in my book).  But how much oil would you say that use, per dish?

They do not reduce the first ladle of Base

I am gobsmacked by the seeming contradiction (to many others' observations) here.  I agree with what Haldi says; this, in my opinion (i.e the "bhoona" process) is one of THE MOST significant aspects of "technique" (but perhaps not for the mildest curries) to extract maximum flavours from the spices and to produce that "BIR taste and aroma".

As I said ELW, if someone says it's "white", another will say it's "black"!  So make up your own mind and experiment and practice! 

[peterandjen]

I agree that reducing the sauces down makes for  better flavour, works the same way with everything even a tin of soup.
The bhoona or cooking out the spices is just as obviously right as well.
Technique is definitely important, as is taking the time to do the recipe justice and not cutting corners ie, not bhoona'ing to save time, not reducing to save time etc.
Practice and repetition.
We have a quandry though, say i have 5 local curry houses, they all cook the same dishes they are all different, why? because they have different chefs, with different techniques differeing amounts of patience and the odd one or two who couldn't give a toss and just want the wages and to get home.
I suggest that we here are the same to a certain extent, when i try a new recipe i read it through, then i have a think about things a bit, then i read it through again, and probably a few more minutes thinking, then some more reading...I take care to follow the recipe, but then i'll change things as im going along ill add a little of this and remove a bit of that. Because i know what my tastes are and thats my aim.
If the phone rings i'll take the pan off the heat and go and answer it, thats not in the recipe.
SOme people will read the recipe once and then make the dish, some will alter things some won't, some might have a phone call some won't but all this makes no difference because they are not cooking to MY tastes.
Were all different, we'll never make a uniform curry.
This site proves this, we have real chefs recipes here, conspiracies aside, they are all using the same ingredients, and the only difference is the chef and his technique.