Topic: what are the benchmarks in creating bir taste?

[ELW]

Hi all, I'm new here & after following threads from years back until present on cr0, it looked like members investigations looked promising only for after trials by other members to be found lacking 'something'. I noticed the number of new threads & posts has dwindled after what seemed like a time of new ideas & information coming to light. I have made a few bases since starting(KD1 & some from another site), with differing results. I liked the KD1 base, but found myself doubling spice amounts due to the lack in the base. This in turn asked questions of my ability to cook the spices out correctly, to remove the rawness & not to burn them. I followed Panpots Ashoka threads with real interest, as I know the Ashoka well & it was the 1st time I had read any reports from a real bir kitchen, only for others to report back saying it wasnt what they were looking for(bunjara G&G paste)My question I suppose is, has anyone perfected their cooking techniques/ recipies/base combinations / missing ingredients to a level where they are looking no further? Im going to try CA's base & recipies next, as they have great reviews from members & he has obviously put a huge amount of effort into this.
I had long suspected flavour enhancers in bir, but apparently this is not the case, apart from maybe pastes & spice mixes? If there is a general consensus on any of the points below, I would appreciate any views & advice. Trying to get up to speed

* use of old oil - (haldi's post from a while back sits well with me the  slight burnt underlying taste)
* adding of onion paste -either bunjara or the boiled one
* use of msg or other flavour enhancers
* Cooking technique of the spices
* Anyone know if jaggery is used?
Thanks in advance
phew!!

[fishy]

Good post.
Although my curry taste good but are lacking that special taste, from talking to my favourite local restaurant they say it takes skill and timing (they wont give me training ), they have though gave me there base sauce and mix spice to try BUT i cannot achieve the same results (there base and mix is no differant from good ones on this site), however i do cook on electric hob and now believe this is where iam going wrong, lots of heat and stirring to bring out that flavour, maybe i need to by that 7kw burner.

Fishy

[Cory Ander]

This thread might be of interest and use to you ELW:  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4069.0 (if you haven't already seen it?)

[chriswg]

It depends whether you are looking for current BIR taste or 1960's taste. I have seen (and cooked in) some BIR kitchens and I can honestly say that there was no used oil used, no bunjarra, no MSG and no jaggery. It's all in the magic of the technique. Even the base sauce makes little difference to the finished product, it is there mainly as a bulking ingredient. In the 60's they would stick chicken carcasses in the base pot to make the base a lot more flavoursome. They may well have recycled used oil too but both practices are more frowned upon now. Especially as they used to make vegetarian curries with the chicken stock base!

If you ever get a chance to look in a kitchen (some are open plan these days) watch the first 20 seconds, that's when the magic happens. After that its just a case of adding the base and reducing down.

[ELW]

I'v been suffering from information overload at the moment...its really easy to get sidetracked on a bir forum when your lookin for the golden ticket!
Im gettin my sea legs now though! Its now more a case of me leaving things out rather than adding, what may be only chefs touches, rather than critical components.

Im goin to follow ca's base & recipies(once i clear the freezer of Asda Whoops!10p's)& concentrate on my cooking technique / timings only, which are crucial in most any cooking(seafood)...that initial 20 seconds, where the spices are cooked out correctly before adding liquid, could very easily be where im falling short...i have a tendency like most people to to sometimes overcook things

Chriswg - the first time I was in a bir was late 80's, & if i remember right,even that tasted different, it was a great place in Glasgow now closed
regarding the use of old oil, I can see in theory how this would work, giving a uniform background taste - regardless of region or country, but i think the risk to health from this alone would have been made apparent-it may be worth more now for biodiesel- To think i had been enjoying the flavour of near rancid oil for 25 years would be a blow - so im ruling it out for the moment

I recently tried a bir takeaway from a place i hadnt tried before, its been there for years, & found that the onion & peppers in my dish had clearly been precooked in something sweet & smokey and quite unusual-they were soft but not browned.not like sugar at all & after checking the price of jaggery, I found it is really cheap and a possibility??

CA -thanks for that appreciate your efforts - 'secret'onion paste, carmelised onion paste(banjara) & homemade spiced oil are not a requirement?

All I know is that i don't know

ELW

P.S - All being well, these posts should reduce in size in time & maybe even posted in the right section 

[chriswg]

The green pepper and onion chunks are gently pre-fried in g/g paste and vegetable ghee around here. Different chefs might throw in different things to make their mark on a dish. They may have just added in some smoked paprika which would combine with the sweetness of the onions to give you the taste you discovered.

Hope this helps.

[JerryM]

ELW,

nice post.

in terms of looking no further - BIR is tantalising in that there is always still something you would like to improve on. i relate it to fell walking - eventually you get to the sea.

my view on the questions: old oil - no, onion paste - yes, msg/others - no, cooking technique - yes (there's a few existing post shout if stuck), jaggery - no.

best wishes

[ELW]

thanks JerryM, its goin to be a process of elimination for me to get what im looking for, I hope to return with some answers rather than questions! I always thought if the bir taste wasn't down to a missing ingredient or flavour enhancement, then the spices & spice mixes, when cooked properly, create almost a single flavour/taste/smell which can only created during the cooking. I find that in standard bir dishes, almost all trace of the spice mixes has gone & changed to 'the taste', except where the dish requires more to unbalance it ie extra chilli in madras/vindaloo.
last week I made a korma & chasni from the 'takeaway secrets' to use up some base i had left, after adding mint sauce to the chasni, which was very high in vinegar, I realised I never had enough base left, so the mint overpowered it. Taste wise they were microwave meal standard at best...thing is for the first time there was a great aroma- a restaurant smell, which everyone who came in asked about..so Ill keep at it.

Regards
ELW

[Derek Dansak]

I am not convinced that anyone at cr0 has really replicated the true bir taste.  I would like to think one or 2 of us have managed to create the illusive taste, but sadly i doubt this.  I know many of us can beat 3 out of 5 local bir restaurants, ( i know i can),  but i cannot match 5 out of 5 local bir restaurants.  This site has enough info to create curries good enough to stop you ordering takeways.  But some real bir chefs have 20 years experience in there trade and know a few tricks !   To answer your question, I would say no one here knows the real benchmarks in creating the bir taste.  The ashoka lamb korai bhuna is close enough to satisfy me though. I make that most weeks and enjoy it alot.  Mastering this recipe takes about 5 or 6 attempts. This will teach you most of the benchmarks such as base consistency, how long to fry garlic, how long to evaporate the base for, and how much tarka to add etc.

[ELW]

thats exactly the impression I got Derek Dansak when I started digging on cr0 - I wasnt sure if members had solved it or given up trying..it seems to have gone a bit quiet. When I saw Panpots Ashoka experience, i thought its would be game over for a lot of people..especially in Scotland.  Have you tested a real Ashoka alongside your own? The garlic & ginger paste is definitely Ashoka, you can smell it as you walk in the door
I'll give their stuff a go sometime in the near future

One of my recent takeaway meals tasted like it had beeen sitting on top of a tandoor or coals???(plain chicken not tikka)it was great

ELW