I think if you read carefully through this thread you will find the questions have been answered

In summary

Maybe also see mine which summarises all (not just sns's) opinions on the subject http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2548.msg22533.html#msg22533

I think you will see that opinions are all over the place.

Ideally the oil temperature should be at 160-180C

Why do you say that please?

The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring

For crying out loud.  What is this aversion to measuring the temperature (however you do it use stale crusty bread for all i care but please provide meaningful practical advice)? 

This advice is quite different from what domi has been saying ("low heat") isnt it?

edited by SnS

This is a serious question deserving a sensible answer that is helpful and meaningful to a beginner to this forum.  So maybe we should restate my original question and summarise the more relevant responses so far?

How hot do the spices have to get to extract the most flavour from them please?

If its over 100C, does this mean that I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil (at 200C plus) before i add anything else containing water? 

Because as soon as I add water (like in onions or pastes) the temperature will struggle to get above 100C (and will probably be about 85C on a domestic hob) wont it? 

Will the flavour of the spices still be released ok at 100C and below?

So the three questions in a nutshell are:

• How hot do I have to get the spices?[
• Do I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil before I add anything else?
• Will the spices still release their flavours below 100C?

And some relevant answers (in a much bigger nutshell):

• Noone seems to know (for sure) how hot the spices need to get to best extract most flavour from them in a reasonable time
• Most people think that its the combination of temperature and time thats important (but they havent said what combination of temperatures and times)
• Sns thinks it is above 100C below 200C and ideally 180C (but hasnt said why)
• Some people (eg domi) think that heat is not such an important factor in cooking spices anyway
• Some people (eg domi) say whole spices need to be roasted at "low" temperatures (but hasnt said what temperatures "low" are)
• Some people (eg domi) think that other indicators (eg sight or smell) should be used to tell when the spices are cooked (but she is unable to describe this to anyone else)
• Some people (eg domi) think that its all about "personal preference" (some people like  raw spices) and that others must "decide for themselves" how best to cook them
• Some people (eg domi) think that heating at 100C is ok because you can add spices to water to extract their flavour (good point).  You just need to heat them for longer
• Some people (eg sns, bobby) question whether ground spices need to be heated at all because prior processes will have released their volatile oils anyway
• Some people (eg sns, gary) think that the main reason that ground spices need to be cooked is to remove the rawness
• Noone (accept for me because ive actually measured it) seems to actually know what temperatures their pan or ingredients get to

Some alternative methods for frying ground spices:

• Some people (eg gary) fry the ground spices in hot oil before adding other (water containing) ingredients (the temperature in this case is likely to be significantly above 100C)
• Many people fry other (water containing) ingredients before frying the spices (the temperature may not get much above 100C from my measurements)
• Some people (eg jerry) add the ground spices as a water paste (the temperature may not get much above 100C from my measurements)
• Some people (who?) add the ground spices as an oil paste (the temperature may get above 100C quicker than if they are in water ? an assumption to be verified)

Some other techniques for telling when the spices are cooked:

• Most people tell when the spices are cooked by indirect means (appearance, craters and churpupping, toffee smell, choking, streaming eyes, etc)
• Most people ?assume? that the spices have been fried at temperatures above 100C (they say that can tell this by experience and they don?t need to measure anything.  They also routinely tread on rice paper without tearing it apparently.  Their guests are suitably impressed and assure their hosts that they are far better than any bir they have ever been to)
• Some people (eg jerry) get better results using higher temperature settings on their cookers
• Some people (eg sns, jerry) assume that any water evaporates rapidly and the temperature of their pan rises ?quickly? to be above 100C

Some other views:

• Some people (eg domi) claim to be able to fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry (I hope she is able to describe how to do this to others then)
• Some people (eg me) cant fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry (close, but not up there with the best.  But my guest are equally impressed for what its worth)
• Some people (eg domi, gary) dont believe that a thermometer is a useful kitchen tool (I presume they also have no temperature settings or timers on their ovens then or any other appliance then)

Conclusions to the questions so far:

• How hot do I have to get the spices? - Unclear, somewhere between room temperature and around 200C
• Do I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil before I add anything else? - Unclear, some people do and some people dont.  The spices will get much hotter (and may burn) if you do
• Will the spices still release their flavours below 100C? - Probably, but probably need to heat them for longer (for how long though is unclear)

So are you saying that I (and people like me, who have posted that they get the BIR taste) don't actually know what we're talking about? Are you somehow more experienced than us? Or are you calling us liars?

Keep your red hair on domi    Im saying exactly what I said.  Although some people are satisfied with their curries (we all have different expectations and goals) it doesn't mean that they can fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry.  If you say you can I take my hat off to you because I (and I am sure most others here) cant and are humble and realistic enough to recognise and admit it.

Does it matter that the people we have fed our curries to also say it's the same or better in some cases than BIR? Are they mistaken too?

Yes, they often are mistaken domi (but maybe not yours)

you have not answered why, when the general consensus is to roast spices at lower temperatures

Is that really the consensus domi? Even if it is, you still havent defined what "low" temperatures mean domi?  "Low" is relative and means nothing to me.  Its also only addressing roasting whole spices isnt it?  What about ground spices?

and when most chefs advocate (again, don't ask for proof, it's well documented enough) mixing the ground spices either in water or oil to avoid burning?

By "chefs" do you mean the members her domi?  Or pat chapman?  Where is it "documented"?  As if thats any sort of "proof" anyway?

Why would you then conclude that maybe the answer is to whack the heat up?

Why do you say ive concluded that domi?  Im simpply asking the questions hoping for sensible and informed answers 

I could use the same argument in reverse

Yes, im sure you can domi

if someone doesn't know whether their pan is hot enough they should experiment and find an ideal temperature to get the ideal taste from their spices for themselves

Oh come now, do they tell you to do that with bread?    No, of course not, they indicate the sort of temperature and time thats required to cook it properly.

I see you scoff at my insistence of personal preference, but food will always come down to personal tastes

Of course "taste" is a matter of personal opinion domi.  But I "scoff at"(question actually) your suggestion that how to cook spices is a matter of "personal preference" domi.  The basic science has to be correct and followed irrespective of "personal preference"

Another anology I could use is yeast....yeast, it's reported, needs warmth to allow it prove more quickly, but even in a cold room the yeast will work eventually, it just takes longer for whatever chemical reaction to occur, just as you can actually bake a cake at 100 degrees

Actually domi, these are not at all analogous.  These are chemical reactions whereas the release of flavours from spices is largely a physical (transport) process aided by TEMPERATURE  :

Just as you can burn spices at high or low temperatures

I challenge you to burn spices at 20C domi   

You see, when Parker21 mentions that toffee-like smell, I know exactly what he's talking about, because that's the smell I get too ;D we may get it using different methods

I can see how gary gets it domi.  He adds ground spices directly to hot oil as the first step.  But how do you get it?  Im not sure youve said? 

but in order to know it, you have to smell it yourself first, experience and experimenting is everything Rai

I think youve completely missed several points through you stubborness domi.  This section (and my question) is designed to provide guidelines to beginners to help them cook curries successfully.  I fail to see how youre helping that cause?

So can you get good results from a piddly little home cooker? ABSOLUTELY!

Has anyone actually said that you cant domi? 

I rest my case ;D

And if I could only tell what your "case" was!  :

I'm sticking to the salad spuds (personal preference)

"personal preference" lmao! ;D :

hi guys/gals
but do you need to know what temperature to get the spices to to release there oils

Surely it would help gary?  Surely we can then consider the process and technique that best facilitates this?

if you hab=ve the time to measure the pan then you must be doing something wrong mate cos when i add the spices in to the pan very quick stir add the tomato puree quick stir the spices release the toffee type aroma add the base sauce

What do you do gary?  Do you add the dry powders to the hot oil before you add anything else? 

and this inital hitting of the pan actually raises the temperature of the pan to above 100 C (unmeasured of course )

I dont think this is the case gary.  I think youre mistaking rapid evaporation of water (from the base) with a temperature rise.  The temperature will, in fact, fall to 100C and below (probably a lot below 100C according to my results).  But it does seem to indicate that your pan is nice and hot (above 100C) before you add the base.

the content of the water will not be sufficient to reduce the heat of the oil/pan to below 100C. the water would have evaporated very quickly and the pan/oil temperature therefore increasing very quickly

But thats not what i found gary

but to actually document the temperature with a infra red point and tell unless you have someone brave enough to actually be in you kitchen without gas mask for when the aromas are released to point the thermometer and how are they gonna know when the time is right( you know not being able to smell or breathe like ;D)

Im a bit concerned about all this talk of choking and barely being able to breath and gas masks gary.  Its not supposed to be chemical warfare attack is it?   

Sounds like youre going to have some serious health issues mate! 

i suggest you get into you locals kitchen and actually witness it yourself

Yes, i have gary, many times, but not with my thermometer i admit 

anyway i do not believe that you can recreate a good bir curry with a thermometer i would try using a good stainless steel spoon! ;D

Quite rigth gary, but surely we stand a much better chance by developing a better understanding rather than wallowing in blissful ingnorance?