Topic: How hot do i have to get my spices?

[SnS]

Rai

Certainly over 100C

Ideally 180C

Definitely not over 200C

[Domi]

My goodness, Im really surprised domi, I really am.  Most of us have been trying for years and years to emulate that and still havent got there.  

Funny, I've read posts where people state they have got the desired results.....maybe you haven't read the right threads, Rai? Apologies if that comes across a little sarcastic, but "when in Rome" as they say....

Maybe, as you seem to have all the paraphernalia, you could experiment and post your findings, hopefully with pictures to illustrate your points? I know I'd be interested to read any results. I would say, however that surely different spices take different times (if you really want to get that anal about it) even so, given that no two people may be using the exact same spices or indeed the exact same pan with the exact same heat diffusion, so it still comes down to being able to tell if and when a spice is at the peak tasting/smelling point, which only comes with experience, you cannot read it in a book or forum and you certainly can't get it from a picture. I've never yet seen a curryhouse chef using an infra-red temperature probe....they do it by sight and smell, right?

It's the same with a cake....different people get different temperatures, so one cooker may bake it quicker than another, the only way to ensure it's properly cooked is to look and feel at it....it's the same principle with spices...some brands are ground finer than others, how would you compensate for that?

[JerryM]

By which time the pan will be about 85C (ive measured it).  Question is, is this hot enough?

Rai,

please explain what you've done and what you've measured so we can understand a little better.

i know what your getting at and i'm 100% attentive - do we all need to buy a propane burner or can we get the BIR taste on our measly standard electric hob (mines is a 1.5kw) or gas hob.

i think the answer is yes but Domi has now got me uncertain.

please use your prob to measure the temp of the hob itself on full wack. i presume you are aiming it inside the pan.

why i ask is i can get my oil smoking on the electric hob, i then add the garlic/ginger paste (the vol/mass is low) and i don't think the temp dips much. i then add the spice mix paste (vol/mass is high) and temp dips but the base of the pan i feel is still or almost the same as the hob. the steam given off by the paste soon slows and the paste then starts to crater - what is the temp at this point (or what does it need to be to have cooked the spices (180c ?, i presume from smokenspices advice). given that the oil must have got near 180 to smoke then surely the spice mix must have also got there (it's only a matter of time as i find the spice burn soon after cratering).

in short i am now gutted - maybe its the oil that's effectively burnt in the BIR that gives the smokey taste (ie before anything is added).

Domi - we need to know more about how you feel you get the BIR taste - have we missed some vital posts

[Domi]

Curry making for me comes down to finding the right spice blend and techniques to suit your own tastes, Jerry. What suits me may not suit you and vice-versa. I like a fairly robust flavour, whereas you may prefer milder, more subtle tones, so we're never going to match up . For instance, I like to use the seeds from a cardomom pod, others prefer to use a whole pod, cracked. Some use alot of methi, others less, it depends entirely on your tastes, which is why I don't see that heat is a major factor in cooking spices, as long as you know how you prefer your spices to taste and cook them accordingly, which comes with experience and means experimenting until you're satisfied.

Cooking spices is like cooking onions, some prefer a more raw flavour, others prefer a more sweeter, caremelised taste. Chinese food uses intense heat, a stir fry takes only a few minutes to cook, yet with Indian food even when a restaurant is fully prepped it takes around 20 minutes to produce a final curry and that's using warmed pre-cooked chicken and a hot base sauce.

And I've never seen a chef using a thermometer of any kind or at any stage of cooking, it's all in the eye and the nose and you just can't get that from a written recipe Just as I have never seen a chef measuring out an exact half or quarter teaspoon of something....it's all done by eye.

[parker21]

hi guys/gals
i know what you are saying rai, but do you need to know what temperature to get the spices to to release there oils, if you hab=ve the time to measure the pan then you must be doing something wrong mate cos when i add the spices in to the pan very quick stir add the tomato puree quick stir the spices release the toffee type aroma add the base sauce and this inital hitting of the pan actually raises the temperature of the pan to above 100 C (unmeasured of course ) if you go into the thread i posted on the Rajver vindaloo/madras is the same method.the temperature of the pan/oil will only drop below 100C if there is sufficient water content ie a runny paste, what i am trying to say is that if you as jerry has said with his leccy nob( all 1.5kw) gets the oil to close to 200C  assuming that there is possibly 4 tbsp of oil in and you add 1 tbsp of paste the content of the water will not be sufficient to reduce the heat of the oil/pan to below 100C. the water would have evaporated very quickly and the pan/oil temperature therefore increasing very quickly. but to actually document the temperature with a infra red point and tell unless you have someone brave enough to actually be in you kitchen without gas mask for when the aromas are released to point the thermometer and how are they gonna know when the time is right( you know not being able to smell or breathe like ;D)
i suggest you get into you locals kitchen and actually witness it yourself.
a good tip is sort of following the authentic route heat some oil in a pan and add first some mustards seeds and then cummin seeds when they start to pop take that as a guide for whole spices. chilli powder a good guide is that if your eyes start to water and you can bearly breathe.

anyway i do not believe that you can recreate a good bir curry with a thermometer i would try using a good stainless steel spoon! ;D

i always follow the same method as i have posted in the Rajver posting and i also have one of the black steel pans which once heated retains the residual heat for a time if removed from the heat.

i hope i have at least added to the complications, so if you smell toffee then its hot enough and the spices are now doing their job   yep......burning so quickly add the base sauce to the pan

regards
gary

[Bobby Bhuna]

This is a really interesting one! I have never burnt the spices and yet I'd say I'd never undercooked them either, but I have certainly had some curries far better than some others I'd rather not mention.

Thinking about it logically though, there is a temperature at which the oils in the spices that give them their flavour will come out. Or is there? The fact that you can smell the spice means that the oil is volatile enough at room temperature to evaporate to some degree? No?

With that said, could it be that they become more volatile when heated and dissolve into the vegetable oil of the curry more and more so with heat until they're burnt? If that's the case, would the flavour of the spice come out more if slowly cooked for a long period of time and it's just that BIRs don't have time? Could this explain why certain spices are added in the base sauce and other not? I'm no chemist and as such am probably way off the mark! I'd be interested to learn however.

[Rai]

Rai

Certainly over 100C
Ideally 180C
Definitely not over 200C

Well, at least weve got some suggestions now thanks.  But why do you say this please whats your rationale?

[Rai]

Funny, I've read posts where people state they have got the desired results.....

With respect domi people (like you) being satisfied with their results is not the same as fully replicating the taste and smell of a decent bir curry is it?  Even haldi says he still cant do it and doesnt know why.  And I beleive he is representative of most of us in that regard. 

And whilst we still dont know why, surely we should be receptive to questions like these.  Surely the more we question and understand the basic food science the better off we are?  Or are you also going to disagree with that too lol? 

I would say, however that surely different spices take different times (if you really want to get that anal about it)

Thats not anal domi its actually a very good point.  Isnt that precisely why different whole spices should be roasted individually for different amounts of time (as chris pointed out in another thread).  In the context of this discussion, maybe they should also be individually roasted at different temperatures too to maximise the release of their flavours? 

so it still comes down to being able to tell if and when a spice is at the peak tasting/smelling point, which only comes with experience

Domi, i cant understand why you refuse to see the simple logic here?  If someone aint getting their pan hot enough, and never has done (because they use a piddly domestic hob and add the spices with the onions, garlic, pastes, water, etc) all their experience is maybe of bad practice.  And some people will (seemingly) never question if this is actually the correct thing to do or not or whether it can actually be done better for a good reason

you cannot read it in a book or forum and you certainly can't get it from a picture. I've never yet seen a curryhouse chef using an infra-red temperature probe....they do it by sight and smell, right?

The simple truth is that most of us (apart from you and one or two others it seems) cant fully produce decent bir curries with the taste and smell at home and they dont know why.  And surely we may never know why if we dont understand the basic limititions of a domestic kitchen and particularly if we insist on closing our eyes and minds to questions such as these domi

It's the same with a cake....different people get different temperatures, so one cooker may bake it quicker than another

Yes i agree domi.  But try cooking your cake at 100C and see how far you get?  And please dont tell me that its a matter of "personal preference" again domi  : 

Surely the basics have to be right?

[Rai]

please explain what you've done and what you've measured so we can understand a little better

Excellent suggestion jerry! 

As you probably know, it was your thread about adding sugar to the lynette baxter spice mix that started me thing about this and prompted my question.  I assumed that the spices needed to be fried at far higher than 100C (to release their flavours and fully cook them) and that the sugar in your spice mix would therefore melt and burn.  So rather than just speculate, I thought Id go and measure what actually happens in practice. 

I have no doubt that most of us struggle to get anywhere near the taste and smell of a DECENT bir curry, when making them at home, although we many of us often kid ourselves that we can.

There are clearly differences between what birs do and what we do (or can do) at home which account for these differences.  Otherwise there wouldnt be a difference.  And I dont believe that it is entirely down to "experience".

So, I thought i would measure my pan to see  how hot it actually got at the front end of making a curry (given yours and santas comments in the other thread).

So i used a 32cm cast iron wok.  I heated it on my largest gas ring 12MJ/h (3.3kW)

I used an infrared thermometer to measure how hot the pan was as it started to smoke.  It was over 220C (this is the upper limit of my thermometer).

I then added about 4 tablespoons of canola oil and heated it until just started to smoke.  It was over 220C.

I then added 1 chopped onion and fried it for 5 to 10 minutes.  The temperature of the onion was between 90C and 110C until it began to brown after 5 minutes or so (gas was always on full).  Only once the onion began to brown (a visual sign that the temperature was rising, probably because most of the water had evaporated) the temperature rose to 130C to 150C.

I then added a reasonably runny spice paste (water plus ground spices) and the temperature of the ingredients immediately dropped to 80C to 90C and remained there for several minutes (even when the spice paste was "churping" and "cratering" jerry).

I then added uncooked chicken cubes.  The temperature of the ingredients dropped to 60C to 90C and never got any hotter.

Hmmmm, now people can pick fault in my rough and ready check and avoid the real question that should be asked (im not asking it again)

i know what your getting at and i'm 100% attentive - do we all need to buy a propane burner or can we get the BIR taste on our measly standard electric hob (mines is a 1.5kw) or gas hob

I think thats premature jerry, until we have answered the original question.  Are these temperatures hot enough to fully release the flavours of the spices (damn it!  I asked the question again!).  Arguable they are?

I think the real problem with weedy domestic cookers is their inability to MAINTAIN a decent high temperature when ingredients are added (clearly, this is the case from my results)

i think the answer is yes but Domi has now got me uncertain

You probably shouldnt be unduly side-tracked by those who are "satisfied" with their results jerry (not if youre after replicating a decent bir curry that is)

please use your prob to measure the temp of the hob itself on full wack. i presume you are aiming it inside the pan

Greater than 220C is all i can say (the upper limit if my thermometer)

in short i am now gutted - maybe its the oil that's effectively burnt in the BIR that gives the smokey taste (ie before anything is added)

I doubt that they burn the oil jerry 

[Rai]

Curry making for me comes down to finding the right spice blend and techniques to suit your own tastes

Yes, thats presumably what you mean by "personal preference" domi.  But just because you might happen to like (and be satisfied with) sesame oil, chinese teas leaves and porridge oats in your curry (and who can argue with you if you do), it doesnt make it a pucker bir curry does it?

Yes, Im being ridiculous i know, but you might get my point?

And I've never seen a chef using a thermometer of any kind or at any stage of cooking

What about their deep fat fryer domi?  Or are you going to try and tell me that its personal preference to cook onion bhajees at 120C because you like them oily and squidgey?  :

And who can argue with that if you do?  But they just dont do it do they?