Topic: How hot do i have to get my spices?

[JerryM]

Rai,

I then added a reasonably runny spice paste (water plus ground spices) and the temperature of the ingredients immediately dropped to 80C to 90C and remained there for several minutes (even when the spice paste was "churping" and "cratering" jerry).

I then added uncooked chicken cubes

my thinking is still not joined up. your hob is clearly running at more than 220. are you sure that the paste when churping & cratering does not continue to increase in temp very quickly once the steam has pretty much stopped with the temp heading weigh over 100C. i say this as i always chicken out at this point expecting to burn the spices - it might be the case (given the evidence that the spices with experience can be added direct to oil ie not in a water paste.) that i should continue to cook at this point to get more in the way of the toffee vapour (i don't have to open the windows like gary has to).

I doubt that they burn the oil

if above is not true ie churping & cratering towards 180c does not produce greater toffee vapour then hobs must be fine and we need another explanation.

what i was getting at with the oil is i don't recycle any from the base and maybe i should to use at the frying stage to get the smokey BIR flavour

[SnS]

Hi Jerry

The sudden drop in oil temperature is caused by water evaporating (latent heat of vapourisation). Once the water in the spices has all turned to steam (evaporated), the oil and spices should rise in temperature very quickly. This is where the experience bit comes in - ie: not to allow the temperature to rise too high, too quick.

To avoid over-cooling the cooking oil the spices should be mixed with a little water to make a thick paste, or preferably with oil (as this doesn't evaporate and won't overcool the oil).

SnS  ;D

[JerryM]

SnS,

thanks for info which is appreciated. hope u don't mind me pushing it a little further:

1) so once the steam's gone give the toffee smell a bit longer but not too much
2) do you think personally a wok burner gets closer to the BIR taste than a hob
3) is the oil reclaim worth anything in terms of getting that smokey BIR flavour

[JerryM]

Rai,

have a read through this post which i think has almost all that anyone could want to know (except for the last 3 questions asked of SnS).

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2041.40.html

[SnS]

SnS,

thanks for info which is appreciated. hope u don't mind me pushing it a little further:

1) so once the steam's gone give the toffee smell a bit longer but not too much
2) do you think personally a wok burner gets closer to the BIR taste than a hob
3) is the oil reclaim worth anything in terms of getting that smokey BIR flavour

Hi Jerry

1) Once the steam has gone and the temperature has started to rise, the full flavour and aroma of the spices will be released (the toffee smell). A few seconds frying at this higher temperature is all that is needed (time, in seconds, is dependant on actual temperature). Easiest thing to do is burn the spices - and that will taste bitter.

Ideally, the spices should be stirred in without water (or with perhaps a little oil).

2) No, but my largest gas ring is 3kW which I know is large enough to maintain a high enough cooking temperature.

3) I prefer to keep the spiced oil with the base gravy (stirred in and shared amongst the portions). Again this is only personal choice.

Regards

SnS  ;D

[JerryM]

SnS,

many thanks, sorted for me  ;D

i've realised having re read gary's post that i need to move back to just using finely chopped garlic at the start of the frying. i found this produces closer taste than garlic/ginger paste but at the time could not crack the frying to get the garlic soft without burning - now using medium heat am confident i can, then increase to full for the spice mix. will give the oil a go for my next paste.

best wishes.

[Domi]

I know a good way to use the ground spices without adding oil or water, Jerry -tested and works- Finely chop the onion as per quantity needed in the recipe, pre-cook all apart from a couple of tablespoons, used to make the paste - Make a paste of the tomato puree, a couple of tablespoons of finely chopped onion (raw), finely chopped garlic & grated ginger and chilli, mix them all together well and get your pan hot, once it's hot, (you need the paste to sizzle on impact) add one to two tablespoons veg oil and throw in the tomato,onion,garlic,ginger and chilli mix and stir fry briskly for a minute or two until the onion has cooked and softened (you should notice the toffee-like aroma starting). It's important to keep the mix on the move as it can stick and burn due to the caremelising effect on the sugars in the raw onion and tomato puree.....next add your spice mix, keeping it on the move until the full toffee aroma hits you (it doesn't take very long, around 30 secs) as soon as you get the toffee smell, whack in your chicken, stir-frying it into the spicy mixture (you may need to turn down the heat until you're sure the chicken is cooked through enough, to avoid burning the spices, next in with the pre-cooked onions (they should still be warm), raise the heat again if you turned it down to get the pan back up to temp, then in with the warmed base (I never use it from cold) then continue and make the curry as you would. I never fail to get the toffee aroma this way (or the lovely orangey oil that's left on BIR plates after the meal) and if you want an extra bit of smokey flavour, char your peppers (if using).

Also when I've finished my curry, I let it sit, covered while I make the rice/sides, as the oil rises so it can be reclaimed (if you're that way inclined) or stirred back in (if that's your bag).

[Rai]

Can you try your experiment again please (with IR thermometer), but this time make a thick spice paste using only a little water.

Yes, i can and will do that.  It seems like a sensible thing to do.  Ill also do it with a paste in oil and with just adding dry powders too.

[Rai]

So are you saying that I (and people like me, who have posted that they get the BIR taste) don't actually know what we're talking about? Are you somehow more experienced than us? Or are you calling us liars?

Keep your red hair on domi    Im saying exactly what I said.  Although some people are satisfied with their curries (we all have different expectations and goals) it doesn't mean that they can fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry.  If you say you can I take my hat off to you because I (and I am sure most others here) cant and are humble and realistic enough to recognise and admit it.

Does it matter that the people we have fed our curries to also say it's the same or better in some cases than BIR? Are they mistaken too?

Yes, they often are mistaken domi (but maybe not yours)

you have not answered why, when the general consensus is to roast spices at lower temperatures

Is that really the consensus domi? Even if it is, you still havent defined what "low" temperatures mean domi?  "Low" is relative and means nothing to me.  Its also only addressing roasting whole spices isnt it?  What about ground spices?

and when most chefs advocate (again, don't ask for proof, it's well documented enough) mixing the ground spices either in water or oil to avoid burning?

By "chefs" do you mean the members her domi?  Or pat chapman?  Where is it "documented"?  As if thats any sort of "proof" anyway?

Why would you then conclude that maybe the answer is to whack the heat up?

Why do you say ive concluded that domi?  Im simpply asking the questions hoping for sensible and informed answers 

I could use the same argument in reverse

Yes, im sure you can domi

if someone doesn't know whether their pan is hot enough they should experiment and find an ideal temperature to get the ideal taste from their spices for themselves

Oh come now, do they tell you to do that with bread?    No, of course not, they indicate the sort of temperature and time thats required to cook it properly.

I see you scoff at my insistence of personal preference, but food will always come down to personal tastes

Of course "taste" is a matter of personal opinion domi.  But I "scoff at"(question actually) your suggestion that how to cook spices is a matter of "personal preference" domi.  The basic science has to be correct and followed irrespective of "personal preference"

Another anology I could use is yeast....yeast, it's reported, needs warmth to allow it prove more quickly, but even in a cold room the yeast will work eventually, it just takes longer for whatever chemical reaction to occur, just as you can actually bake a cake at 100 degrees

Actually domi, these are not at all analogous.  These are chemical reactions whereas the release of flavours from spices is largely a physical (transport) process aided by TEMPERATURE  :

Just as you can burn spices at high or low temperatures

I challenge you to burn spices at 20C domi   

You see, when Parker21 mentions that toffee-like smell, I know exactly what he's talking about, because that's the smell I get too ;D we may get it using different methods

I can see how gary gets it domi.  He adds ground spices directly to hot oil as the first step.  But how do you get it?  Im not sure youve said? 

but in order to know it, you have to smell it yourself first, experience and experimenting is everything Rai

I think youve completely missed several points through you stubborness domi.  This section (and my question) is designed to provide guidelines to beginners to help them cook curries successfully.  I fail to see how youre helping that cause?

So can you get good results from a piddly little home cooker? ABSOLUTELY!

Has anyone actually said that you cant domi? 

I rest my case ;D

And if I could only tell what your "case" was!  :

[Rai]

but how hot is that? ;)lol

I think youre being very facitious gary but its and obvious and reasonable question to ask.  What temperature is "low" domi please? 

rai the whole spices/seeds are slow roasted to release the oils prior to grinding as it makes it easier

Why are we talking about whole spices gary?  Most people use commerically ground spices dont they?  These arent roasted (mostly) they are simply ground

this could go on as long as the secret ingredient thread :

Is it a problem if it does?  Im sure that people will stop contibuting if they arent interested