Topic: How hot do i have to get my spices?

[Rai]

edited by SnS

This is a serious question deserving a sensible answer that is helpful and meaningful to a beginner to this forum.  So maybe we should restate my original question and summarise the more relevant responses so far?

How hot do the spices have to get to extract the most flavour from them please?

If its over 100C, does this mean that I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil (at 200C plus) before i add anything else containing water? 

Because as soon as I add water (like in onions or pastes) the temperature will struggle to get above 100C (and will probably be about 85C on a domestic hob) wont it? 

Will the flavour of the spices still be released ok at 100C and below?

So the three questions in a nutshell are:

• How hot do I have to get the spices?[
• Do I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil before I add anything else?
• Will the spices still release their flavours below 100C?

And some relevant answers (in a much bigger nutshell):

• Noone seems to know (for sure) how hot the spices need to get to best extract most flavour from them in a reasonable time
• Most people think that its the combination of temperature and time thats important (but they havent said what combination of temperatures and times)
• Sns thinks it is above 100C below 200C and ideally 180C (but hasnt said why)
• Some people (eg domi) think that heat is not such an important factor in cooking spices anyway
• Some people (eg domi) say whole spices need to be roasted at "low" temperatures (but hasnt said what temperatures "low" are)
• Some people (eg domi) think that other indicators (eg sight or smell) should be used to tell when the spices are cooked (but she is unable to describe this to anyone else)
• Some people (eg domi) think that its all about "personal preference" (some people like  raw spices) and that others must "decide for themselves" how best to cook them
• Some people (eg domi) think that heating at 100C is ok because you can add spices to water to extract their flavour (good point).  You just need to heat them for longer
• Some people (eg sns, bobby) question whether ground spices need to be heated at all because prior processes will have released their volatile oils anyway
• Some people (eg sns, gary) think that the main reason that ground spices need to be cooked is to remove the rawness
• Noone (accept for me because ive actually measured it) seems to actually know what temperatures their pan or ingredients get to

Some alternative methods for frying ground spices:

• Some people (eg gary) fry the ground spices in hot oil before adding other (water containing) ingredients (the temperature in this case is likely to be significantly above 100C)
• Many people fry other (water containing) ingredients before frying the spices (the temperature may not get much above 100C from my measurements)
• Some people (eg jerry) add the ground spices as a water paste (the temperature may not get much above 100C from my measurements)
• Some people (who?) add the ground spices as an oil paste (the temperature may get above 100C quicker than if they are in water ? an assumption to be verified)

Some other techniques for telling when the spices are cooked:

• Most people tell when the spices are cooked by indirect means (appearance, craters and churpupping, toffee smell, choking, streaming eyes, etc)
• Most people ?assume? that the spices have been fried at temperatures above 100C (they say that can tell this by experience and they don?t need to measure anything.  They also routinely tread on rice paper without tearing it apparently.  Their guests are suitably impressed and assure their hosts that they are far better than any bir they have ever been to)
• Some people (eg jerry) get better results using higher temperature settings on their cookers
• Some people (eg sns, jerry) assume that any water evaporates rapidly and the temperature of their pan rises ?quickly? to be above 100C

Some other views:

• Some people (eg domi) claim to be able to fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry (I hope she is able to describe how to do this to others then)
• Some people (eg me) cant fully reproduce the taste and smell of a decent bir curry (close, but not up there with the best.  But my guest are equally impressed for what its worth)
• Some people (eg domi, gary) dont believe that a thermometer is a useful kitchen tool (I presume they also have no temperature settings or timers on their ovens then or any other appliance then)

Conclusions to the questions so far:

• How hot do I have to get the spices? - Unclear, somewhere between room temperature and around 200C
• Do I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil before I add anything else? - Unclear, some people do and some people dont.  The spices will get much hotter (and may burn) if you do
• Will the spices still release their flavours below 100C? - Probably, but probably need to heat them for longer (for how long though is unclear)

[JerryM]

Domi,

thanks for your post. it was for me very well timed.

i was thinking on from what SnS said and was intending cooking my finely chopped raw garlic on medium heat (to avoid it burning before cooking through) and then turn the hob up to full and just as the oil starts to smoke add a thicker spice paste (i normally make as a runny 1/2 a cup or 12 ish tbsps - which splits into 9 tbsp water, 2 tbsp tom puree and 2 tsp spice).

i was concerned that the garlic would burn whilst waiting for my slow hob to get up to oil smoke temp. your method would sort this.

i am on curry kings CTM tonight using ifindforu base and will try the new method. i would have liked to try on my std madras where i think the need for toffee is more important (CK CTM is 100% spot on - i'd say better than most BIR as the smokey factor is not as prevalent in CTM)

edited by SnS

[SnS]

Can you try your experiment again please (with IR thermometer), but this time make a thick spice paste using only a little water.

Yes, i can and will do that.  It seems like a sensible thing to do.  Ill also do it with a paste in oil and with just adding dry powders too.

I look forward to reading your results Rai.

SnS  ;D

[The Apprentice]

Yes as a beginner , I'd like to know the answers to those questions too!

Some clear guidance to me  as a beginner would be much appreciated .

Thanks for asking those questions Rai !

I don't know whether I should add the spices to hot oil before I add anything else or as a paste

I don't want to burn them , but I do want to get the most flavour from them .

The answers I hope will help me , from your collective wisdom .

edited by SnS

[SnS]

Domi ,

irrespective of his perceived tone ,(which I don't really see being anything other than a little direct and impersonal), I'd still like to know the answers to the questions he poses or can't anyone actually give an answer ?

Hi Apprentice

I think if you read carefully through this thread you will find the questions have been answered.

In summary:-

1) The spice powder requires heat to release flavour, aroma and remove the "rawness". Ideally the oil temperature should be at 160-180C and the spices fried for a few seconds. If it is hotter than this then you risk burning the spices. Below this temperature and you will require a slightly longer period of frying. If the oil is too cool, the spices wont fry at all. The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring. The frying time (in seconds) will vary depending on oil temperature, quantity and type of spices (plus other less influencing factors).

2) If you add water (as in spice paste) into hot oil there will be a cooling effect caused by a) the water being at a lower temperature than the oil and b) the evaporation of water into steam (this being the greatest cooling effect of the two). The cooling effect (b) remains until all the water has evaporated. If you add oil/spice paste to hot oil the cooling effect will be much less as there is no evaporation. If you add only spices (no water, no oil) to hot oil the cooling effect will be almost negligible.

SnS  ;D

[The Apprentice]

Domi ,

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what is  roughly considered a low temperature . And I am genuinely interested - especially as a beginner ( and this is the beginners section here isn't it? ) .

edited by SnS

[The Apprentice]

Hi Apprentice

I think if you read carefully through this thread you will find the questions have been answered.

In summary:-

1) The spice powder requires heat to release flavour, aroma and remove the "rawness". Ideally the oil temperature should be at 160-180C and the spices fried for a few seconds. If it is hotter than this then you risk burning the spices. Below this temperature and you will require a slightly longer period of frying. If the oil is too cool, the spices wont fry at all. The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring. The frying time (in seconds) will vary depending on oil temperature, quantity and type of spices (plus other less influencing factors).

2) If you add water (as in spice paste) into hot oil there will be a cooling effect caused by a) the water being at a lower temperature than the oil and b) the evaporation of water into steam (this being the greatest cooling effect of the two). The cooling effect (b) remains until all the water has evaporated. If you add oil/spice paste to hot oil the cooling effect will be much less as there is no evaporation. If you add only spices (no water, no oil) to hot oil the cooling effect will be almost negligible.

SnS  ;D

Thank you SnS ,
that is much more helpful ,
however , how will I know when the spices have reached the required temperatures ? And how will I know if I have cooked it for long enough OR over cooked it ?

[SnS]

Thank you SnS ,
that is much more helpful ,
however , how will I know when the spices have reached the required temperatures ? And how will I know if I have cooked it for long enough OR over cooked it ?

There is no definitive answer, but the aroma is probably the best indication. Spices will also darken (but not black - or it's burnt!). Try frying spice powders only (not paste) in hot oil, for 30 seconds (stirring continuously) and work from there. Unfortunately this does take practice. Whole spices will take much longer, some more than others.

SnS  ;D

[The Apprentice]

There is no definitive answer, but the aroma is probably the best indication. Spices will also darken (but not black - or it's burnt!). Try frying spice powders only (not paste) in hot oil, for 30 seconds (stirring continuously) and work from there. Unfortunately this does take practice. Whole spices will take much longer, some more than others.

SnS  ;D

Thanks SNS , you have been very helpful again , I will take that knowledge into the kitchen with me and start practicing  ...

Happy Currying 

[JerryM]

edited by SnS

i followed Domi's instructions and near frightened the life out of me. my wife had to open the back door (amazing what can be done when in need - have noted it for future reference). i was far too happy to be worried given i was choking my head off. dying happy why not.

i made Curry Kings CTM (made 4 times now - all spot on - you won't beat it in a restaurant). i used my mid size pan ie the wok (due to the volume of sauce demanded by family). i put 3 tbsp veg oil and left it on the hob on full (setting 6) until it was smoking. i put the garlic/tom puree mix in and ran (well that was my 1st instinct) i fried it until i dared no longer (how long ~1 min max). i need someone by me with a stop watch to be sure as believe me your not thinking of time or temp at that moment in time. i then chucked the dry spice in and continued to fry - choking almost immediately (how long cooking 30 secs max). this was when my good lady opened the back door. i then added 1/2 ladle of base and fried off again (30 secs). added rest of base and turned down to low (setting 2) and continued with rest of ingredients.

was the BIR taste there i hear u ask. well no. for me the BIR taste i'm after won't show through in CTM (it doesn?t in the BIR restaurant or takeaway either). i need to try this on a madras as this is the type of dish where the BIR taste for me exists.

i summary i'm now settled on this technique for cooking spices (i particularly liked how the fresh garlic held the tom puree together so that it could be delivered to the pan speedily much in the same way as paste but of course without that extra water - ingenious). i got a big improvement via the previous method when i 1st got the toffee smell. what i now realise was that it wasn?t enough only a sort of puff rather than an hurricane which i got tonight. i am convinced that this will deliver the smokey BIR taste where it's needed (the evaporated milk and cream coconut mask it in a CTM) ie madras etc

it's been a riveting post and am very, very appreciative to all.