Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: haldi on August 21, 2012, 09:29 AM
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I can honestly say that I don't know where to buy an indian takeaway that still has "the taste"
There has been a sudden change of old places being taken over, or new places coming along
The whole flavour of curries has changed
They are generally bland and some are only equal to the flavour of a supermarket curry sauce
The final nail in the coffin, was the closing of the takeaway Bombay Style, on Alfreton Road
All the old school chefs are gone
I used to drive myself crazy at why my curries were sub standard taste
Well, now the're not
But for all the wrong reasons
I'm still trying "new" places, perhaps luck will favour me in re finding my curry nirvana
But the classic takeaway scene is clearlyly vanishing
Ironically, I would guess it's from improving hygene standards
Well perhaps life will be longer due to these changes
Longer but not richer
I remember eating cold classic curry for breakfast
I have even thrown "new" curry away
I live in Nottingham
Does anyone know of anywhere that still does the old business?
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Haldi...
Step away from the edge! - Its going to be OK. No need to do something you might later regret....
Have to generally agree with you though. In my neck of the woods (Farnham, Aldershot, Fleet) there are now only around 3 or 4 restaurants that I know of that still produce exceptional curry either for a sit down or a take away. The smaller dedicated TA establishments are just a world of disappointment in my area too - I just don't buy from them any more because the curry is always so disappointing.
In fact, this reminds me that I must revoke a recommendation that I made on this site a couple of years ago. It seems the 'more senior' chef no longer works in my local TA and now all their curry tastes the same and very bland.
I guess it is like everything else - you get what you pay for and I would rather spend a few extra pounds getting a TA from a decent restaurant these days.
Cheers
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Have to generally agree with you though. In my neck of the woods (Farnham, Aldershot, Fleet) there are now only around 3 or 4 restaurants that I know of that still produce exceptional curry either for a sit down or a take away. The smaller dedicated TA establishments are just a world of disappointment in my area too - I just don't buy from them any more because the curry is always so disappointing.
It's threads such as this that make me really wish for backwards time travel. If only we /could/ go back to the 60s/70s and re-eat the curries (and other dishes) that we ate in those days. Would they really taste as good as nostalgia tells us they were, or would they prove a terrible disappointment, and would we find that actually the quality of BIR cuisine has improved since then. Sadly we will never know.
** Phil.
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Or could it be that your taste has matured wth age and the taste you crave has merely vanished due to this.
As a side note I feel the general quality of Takeaway Curry has lowered over the last few years with TA's using poorer ingredients to try and maintain current pricing whilst protecting their profit.
This means that 9 time out of 10 you are getting a bad curry, i.e chicken knuckle or some old frozen chicken cut up from Asda.
Also i feel that the weekend is the worst time to get a curry as the standard lowers again as they bosh out loads of orders. Go on a Monday or Tuesday....much better.
I cook curry now without a base sauce in a more traditional style but I am turning out my own Madras and other dishes that would put my local TA's to shame.
Stew
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I cook curry now without a base sauce in a more traditional style but I am turning out my own Madras and other dishes that would put my local TA's to shame.
Stew
Hi Stew,
I still use your recipe form the Madras without a base sauce, So another recipe traditional style or otherwise would be nice to have a go at, If you don't mind that is,
And yes I agree that the standard of Indian T/A's has fallen over the past few years, like Phil said if we could only go back and relive the curry's of yesteryear, Had a Biranni the other night from my local T/A and it was rank not to put to finer point on it but I've thrown better away, And as for the veg curry that came with it, It was Bombay Aloo, Still fridge cold in the middle, so obviously not nuked (microwaved) for long enough. And there was I thinking it would be freshly made :o
Les
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This is a common trend in my other hobby, home brewing. The fine ales and lagers that we worshipped and strove to recreate nowadays seem bland and disappointing compared to the flavour we remember from years ago.
Nowadays with all-grain amateur brewing almost universal in the craft and a supply of varieties of hops and yeasts we could only have dreamed about 10 years ago we can produce full flavoured beers to our liking.
Then when we taste an old "holy grail" such as Pilsner Urquell or Leffe, they are strangely unsatisfying. The malt and hops are the same, surely not every beer in the World has gone downhill - but our tastebuds have become re-tuned I think and it's possibly the same with curries.
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Hi Les,
I will put the recipe together for you to try.
Stew
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Hi Les,
I will put the recipe together for you to try.
Stew
Cheer's Stew, Looking forward too it
Les
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Stew's Special Curry - That probably doesn't fit in any recipe section - Enjoy
Ingredients
1 Red Onion (Diced)
3 tablespoons veg oil
1/2 TS Whole Cumin
1 inch cinnamon stick
2 Cloves
4 Green Cardamoms
1 Chicken breast (Cut into large chunks 4 or 5 chunks per breast)
250 ml chicken stock
50ml water to top up
1 or 2 garlic cloves + 2 green chilli chopped into 5 sections and crushed to a paste in pestle and mortar
Tablespoon Tomato Paste
100ml Tomato Passata
half handful coriander leaves / stalks
Spice
1 teaspoon deggi murch
1 headped teaspoon Madras Curry Powder (Mild)
1/2 TS Garam Masala
1 teaspoon whole coriander seeds (Crushed in pestle then added as ground spice)
Tools
non stick saucepan with lid.
Method
I know this sound a lot but I make this probably every other day and know off by heart, once you get the rhythm this is the only curry you will need and you can vary with different spice mix, veg, lentils, prawns etc.
1. Heat non-stick saucepan over medum/high heat and add whole spice (Cumin, Cloves, Cardamom, 1 inch cinnamon stick)
2. Dry fry spice until you smell the nutty smell then add the oil to the pan
3. Add the red onion, stir, put lid on and turn heat to just above low ? leave for 15 mins stirring occasionally.
4. Once onion Is going brown add the garlic/green chilli paste and stir for a minute or so
5. Next add the spices (deggi murch / madras curry powder, crushed coriander seeds) and stir for a few mins over medium heat.
6. Add the Tablespoon Tomato Paste stir
7. Add the cubed raw chicken seal for 2 mins (look a bit of a mess but trust me this gets spices and falvour into chicken)
8. Add 100ml Tomato Passata and stir for 1 minute
9. Add 250 ml chicken stock to cover chicken - Top up with water to barely cover chicken as required.
10. Bring to a rapid boil and put lid on and turn to lowest heat for 35 mins exactly
11. Stir now and again during process, it will reduce to the right consistency and with 10 mins to go add the Garam Masala
12. Throw in coriander at the end of process and stir
Serve with rice and toasted wholemeal pita bread and some raw red onion.
Try it and let me know, you will have an amazing very spicy tangy curry in less than an hour.
I use this method all the time and vary different spice mixes, sometime I dry fry whole spices then crush them. I sometime cook lentils then add the above curry sauce to them to get a dansak.
Many, many possibilities with this curry recipe and I would urge you to try.
Striclty not BIR but you can make a base sauce with this recipe and add anything you want to it.
Stew
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Thanks Stew
Looks good to me mate, Going to give this one a try
Les
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Yup. Around my way (Birmingham) the TA taste seems to be as dead as disco. Has been for a long time. Also, take your average garlic naan for example. The fresh garlic was replaced years ago by garlic salt (nightmare) and more recently with garlic butter. I asked my local takeaway if I could have fresh sliced garlic in mine, instead of the butter. They said, "sorry mate, that's the way it comes". :(
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Yup. Around my way (Birmingham) the TA taste seems to be as dead as disco. Has been for a long time. Also, take your average garlic naan for example. The fresh garlic was replaced years ago by garlic salt (nightmare) and more recently with garlic butter. I asked my local takeaway if I could have fresh sliced garlic in mine, instead of the butter. They said, "sorry mate, that's the way it comes". :(
Well aint life just a bitch. ;)
Les
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Haldi,have to agree with you :-\
Got to say though I / We prefer our Curry's quite spicy which is how I make them but when we have a t/a they seem very bland and just hot !
A few weeks ago I was in our local t/a kitchen watching them make our Curry's ( madras ) and was very surprised to see they used no extra spice in the Curry other than what was in the Gravy :o when I asked the Chef he said most customers do not like spicy Curry :-\ so I asked if I could make my Curry and he agreed !
Although I made my Curry basically the same as the Chef I added about 1/2 tbs of spice mix and this brought my Curry up to my spice level and made it much tastier than my Wife's bland Curry ;D
So it could be that your own Curry's have improved so much that you are now making better/tastier Curry's than the takeaways ;)
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Think i'd be tipping them b******s and find myself a more obliging and appreciative eating establishment >:(
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Yes Haldi,
I agree with your post.
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You?d think the shear numbers of TAs in most of the big cities would mean only the best would prosper. But it doesn?t seem to work that way. There are loads of TA?s near me and they?ve been there for several years. At the one I used to go the phones started ringing as soon as they opened. People must in general be happy with the food. Each to his own I suppose.
I do know a pretty good takeaway in Tamworth. They?ve been there since the 70s. Although the last time I went it wasn?t anything like as good as I remembered. I didn?t notice one of the usual chefs being there, so that may explain the difference. Or, I could be been making comparisons with my own newly acquired BIR skills (efforts). Did note that their sheek kebabs had doubled in size since my previous visit though. This proved to be down to a different recipe including lots of binder, flour or whatever. This could be a bad omen. :P
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Just spent two weeks in scarborough. Tried a popular restaurant recomended by locals and the taste wasn't there, no savoury BIR taste, my wife and i were really disappointed. Decided to try one away from the main touristy places which we visited a few years earlier. Aaaahhh the taste was still there. Came away happy but the beer was expensive.
Steve
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The worst part is that this forum is joining the club Haldi.
Having been off the forum for some time I come back to see we're now overwhelmed with recipes that rely on Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing.
It's a bloody tragedy.
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See, I don't remember the curries from old, but I do agree that there is an awful lot of substandard BIRs out there that produce, at worst, complete slop.
I know there a quite a few members on here that covet the taste of the 80s, but are there any that feel they've actually attained it? What are the recipes on here that are closest to the old taste?
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I know there a quite a few members on here that covet the taste of the 80s, but are there any that feel they've actually attained it? What are the recipes on here that are closest to the old taste?
I think that's the key question, Ramirez : it matters not one iota (IMHO) whether the recipe includes Patak's, Shan's or Uncle Tom Cobbley's products so long as it achieves the results we are seeking. For myself, I don't think I am there : I can replicate and better most modern Chicken Madras's, but re-creating the taste of the 70's is another matter entirely.
** Phil.
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The worst part is that this forum is joining the club Haldi.
Having been off the forum for some time I come back to see we're now overwhelmed with recipes that rely on Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing.
It's a bloody tragedy.
I recently questioned at which point did Patak's start becoming a staple in BIR's. It didn't get much feed back unfortunately, which is a shame. It would certainly help to work out what peoples tastes are truly striving for.
But like you SS, I am disappointed at the amount of recipes that contain Patak's. That is not to say they are bad recipes, just not what I am hoping to find or looking for.
I still think alot of the changes are due to the origination of the recipes and methods. Whether or not they have been handed down through the generations or not. When I order at the Shanaz, I often smell different aromas wafting up to the reception (restaurant is in the basement) and often ask 'what is that smell'? I get different answers for different smells but its either a steel balti pan, or karahi, or sizzler plate etc. but not as yet, one ingredient or another.
Given the amount of diluting of handed down recipes, techniques and the replacement of ingredients with commercially available pastes, it can only mean that finding that old style curry, is even harder to find these days.
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.....Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing...
I agree. The (more recent) use of commercial pastes is an obvious difference between "old style" BIR curries and "new style" BIR curries.
However, I would even go so far as to question how prevalent the use of the following were in the "old style" BIR curries:
- Standardised "spice mix" or "mixed powder" (that now seems to go into most BIR curries)?
- Dried fenugreek leaves (which now seem to go into many, if not most, BIR curries)?
- Fresh coriander (which now seems to adorn most curries)?
it matters not one iota (IMHO) whether the recipe includes Patak's, Shan's or Uncle Tom Cobbley's products so long as it achieves the results we are seeking
That may be true, in principle, Phil. But, if you're trying to replicate...oh, I dunno, your favourite roast potatoes like your grandmother used to make, and you insist on roasting them in Canola oil from a spray can (or olive oil, say), whereas she roasted them in lard, or beef dripping, then you are probably never going to replicate her roast potatoes, are you? You'd be barking up the wrong tree, I'd say...
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Ah... I do like the heady whiff of nostalgia. While it's often tinged by eclectic memories that have, over the years, acquired an enhanced level of idealisation, in the strange case of past vs present BIRs there is no doubt that things are not, indeed, as they used to be.
I suspect that there are many factors which have contributed to this, but one which has come about in recent times is the so-called 'curry crisis', which has received a fair bit of media attention and was brought to light by Julian in the C2G e-book. (For those that haven't heard about it, in a nutshell UK immigration policy changes have resulted in a shortage of Bangladeshi/Indian/Pakistani/ chefs, which means it's so much harder these days for restaurateurs to staff their kitchens with old-school talent.)
But whatever the reasons, it is the death of 'the taste' that continues to drive me ever onwards in the BIR quest. I've mentioned on here before that the Holy Grail for me has always been to reproduce the stunning and super-intense curries I enjoyed in Scotland in the early 80s (Glasgow and surrounding area).
To date, the closest I've managed to get to this intensity of flavour has been through the use of a good bunjarra (spicy onion paste). The one I make now combines the best of both worlds from the Ashoka bunjarra on here, and the oinion paste in Mick Crawford's (CBM's) book.
To those who have yet to try using bunjarra, I thoroughly recommend it. Okay, it's a bit of a faff standing over those onions for the best part of an hour while they slowly caramelise, but you can make enough in one go to fill an old Patak's jar, and as you only use a tablespoon or so in each curry it lasts a good while (keeps for a good few weeks in the fridge).
Do give it a go. And if you like it really intense, try to leave the curry overnight for eating the next day. As many of us have found, this often works wonders for our curries as our senses have had time to recover from the cooking process, but the intensity levels when you do this with a curry made with some bunjarra are off the scale...
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Given the amount of diluting of handed down recipes, techniques and the replacement of ingredients with commercially available pastes, it can only mean that finding that old style curry, is even harder to find these days.
I'd go one step further and argue that it is extremely unlikely that it will ever be cracked. Surely if the old BIR taste has yet to be attained it never will be, unless through some stroke of luck.
The worst part is that this forum is joining the club Haldi.
Having been off the forum for some time I come back to see we're now overwhelmed with recipes that rely on Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing.
It's a bloody tragedy.
What recipes bring you closest to old BIR, SS?
I agree. The (more recent) use of commercial pastes is an obvious difference between "old style" BIR curries and "new style" BIR curries.
Same question to you CA: what recipes bring you closest to old BIR - your own?
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Same question to you CA: what recipes bring you closest to old BIR - your own?
I think that all of the recipes that I have ever tried have been significantly lacking with regard to the taste and aroma and texture of the best "old style" BIR curries. And it's nothing, whatsoever, to do with "nostalgia" (in my opinion).
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I can replicate and better most modern Chicken Madras's
Please would you point me to the madras recipe of yours (and any supplementary recipes required to make it) that you consider to be your best, I would be very interested in trying it.
Thanks,
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it matters not one iota (IMHO) whether the recipe includes Patak's, Shan's or Uncle Tom Cobbley's products so long as it achieves the results we are seeking
That may be true, in principle, Phil. But, if you're trying to replicate...oh, I dunno, your favourite roast potatoes like your grandmother used to make, and you insist on roasting them in Canola oil from a spray can (or olive oil, say), whereas she roasted them in lard, or beef dripping, then you are probably never going to replicate her roast potatoes, are you? You'd be barking up the wrong tree, I'd say...
I completely agree. But let us suppose that Mr Patak were to produce a paste consisting primarily of beef dripping with added dried Coleman's mustard, salt and (perhaps) a little black pepper; if those were the ingredients that my long-dead grandmother had used (albeit separately, and not from a modern convenience jar), then I would be inclined to suspect I would get pretty d@mned close by using Mr Patak's modern convenience version. Would you not agree ?
** Phil.
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I can replicate and better most modern Chicken Madras's
Please would you point me to the madras recipe of yours (and any supplementary recipes required to make it) that you consider to be your best, I would be very interested in trying it. Thanks
By all means : I am fairly sure it will already be on the forum, but I will need to do a search and then cook it at least once more to be sure that I haven't further refined it since I went to press.
** Phil.
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To date, the closest I've managed to get to this intensity of flavour has been through the use of a good bunjarra (spicy onion paste). The one I make now combines the best of both worlds from the Ashoka bunjarra on here, and the oinion paste in Mick Crawford's (CBM's) book.
Hi SD - was/is this used instead of the base gravy?
Cheers
Steve
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in the strange case of past vs present BIRs there is no doubt that things are not, indeed, as they used to be.
I suspect that there are many factors which have contributed to this, but one which has come about in recent times is the so-called 'curry crisis', which has received a fair bit of media attention and was brought to light by Julian in the C2G e-book. (For those that haven't heard about it, in a nutshell UK immigration policy changes have resulted in a shortage of Bangladeshi/Indian/Pakistani/ chefs, which means it's so much harder these days for restaurateurs to staff their kitchens with old-school talent.)
d bunjarra (spicy onion paste). The one I make now combines the best of both worlds from the Ashoka bunjarra on here, and the oinion paste in Mick Crawford's (CBM's) book.
SD this is not the only factor - a MAJOR factor is that the new generation DO NOT want to stand in a kitchen they are more high tech and would like more out of life - enjoying themselves
So yes the old school chef's are not passing the information on anymore - I see an opening for many none Asian chefs if they would like to take it on.
Also all the pastes on the market are there for convenience - which does help the cook/chef who has never made a paste or mixed spices in his life - very easy to shovel in a spoon out of a jar........... shame really
best, Rich
best, Rich
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But let us suppose that Mr Patak were to produce a paste consisting primarily of beef dripping with added dried Coleman's mustard, salt and (perhaps) a little black pepper; if those were the ingredients that my long-dead grandmother had used (albeit separately, and not from a modern convenience jar), then I would be inclined to suspect I would get pretty d@mned close by using Mr Patak's modern convenience version. Would you not agree ?
Let us suppose, instead, that Patak take spices (let's give them the benefit of the doubt here) and reconstituted ingredients and then add antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, salt, bulking agents, etc, (because that, in fact, is what Patak actually do).....
...I very much doubt that your long-dead grandmother did it that way at all.
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I've only been a slave to the Obsession for a few months now and still learning as I go. I'd never heard of Bunjarra onion paste till I read this thread, so I did a Google Search and Cory Ander's recipe turned up straight away for PanPot's Ashoka Onion Paste. :D
As I read it, it was immediately obvious that this is basically what the Australian Indian Restaurant base "gravies" consist of. The gravies are adjusted with ingredients such as coconut, almond, vinegar etc to make a number of gravies in common use for the different "families" of curries such as butter chicken, vindaloo etc etc.
They are heavily caramelised and are pastes, although called "gravies". So I guess a curry made with BIR ingredients then enhanced with a Bunjarra would maybe fall half way between the two styles?
I'll give it a go - I often use red onions even in my BIR base, for the sweetness. Interesting that this is mentioned as an old school paste that was in use in BIR restaurants, and could explain why it became the basis of AIR curries as the first wave of restaurateurs came here from the UK rather than from the Subcontinent itself, courtesy of their acquiring UK citizenship then emigrating here.
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To date, the closest I've managed to get to this intensity of flavour has been through the use of a good bunjarra (spicy onion paste). The one I make now combines the best of both worlds from the Ashoka bunjarra on here, and the oinion paste in Mick Crawford's (CBM's) book.
Hi SD - was/is this used instead of the base gravy?
Cheers
Steve
Hi Steve
A bunjarra or onion paste is simply added to a curry cooked in the usual way (using base gravy, etc). So, if you were making, say, a Madras, you would simply add a tablespoon or so of bunjarra half-way through or towards the end (though excactly when it goes in isn't super critical).
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Thats why I asked BB. I thought the same. Thanks for the clarification SD.
Cheers
Steve
Edit: So it has me thinking. Isnt frying the onions with other ingredients, i.e. garlic, ginger, spices etc the traditional style of Indian cooking? Thats how ive been cooking for the past 20 years. When did base gravies start being used?
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Let us suppose, instead, that Patak take spices (let's give them the benefit of the doubt here) and reconstituted ingredients and then add antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, salt, bulking agents, etc, (because that, in fact, is what Patak actually do)..... ...I very much doubt that your long-dead grandmother did it that way at all.
But that is an entirely different question, surely : we are not trying to re-create the methodology of our grandmothers (or of the BIR chefs of the 1970s), we are trying to re-create the results they achieved. And therefore, so long as the antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, bulking agents, etc., do not affect the flavour, their presence or absence makes no difference. Whether these additives /do/ affect the flavour is another matter entirely; my point was solely that the means (and ingredients) by which we achieve the flavours we are seeking is not the issue; it is the results that matter, not the methodology and ingredients. Would you not agree ?
** Phil.
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my point was solely that the means (and ingredients) by which we achieve the flavours we are seeking is not key; it is the results that matter, not the methodology and ingredients. Would you not agree ?
Sorry Phil, i'd have to disagree with that statement. Without the ingredients and methodology, the results will never be right, no matter how close you you may feel you get.
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Edit: So it has me thinking. Isnt frying the onions with other ingredients, i.e. garlic, ginger, spices etc the traditional style of Indian cooking? Thats how ive been cooking for the past 20 years. When did base gravies start being used?
It is indeed - but not too many styles of traditional Indian cookery require the onions to be caramelised so thoroughly over such a long period. The idea of the concentrated bunjarra paste is to add an extra layer of flavour and intensity - it's an adjunct, rather than a main ingredient. (Indeed, if you make it properly, while it tastes fantastic, you wouldn't want to eat too much of it on its own.)
As to when base gravies started to be used, it's hard to put a date on it, but the popular consensus is that it was back when the first wave of Indian (well, mainly Bangladeshi) restaurants began opening in the UK in the 60s/70s.
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Sorry Phil, i'd have to disagree with that statement. Without the ingredients and methodology, the results will never be right, no matter how close you you may feel you get.
But isn't that begging the question, Malc ? It is a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold, but surely it is just that : a viewpoint, rather than a proven fact. Let me put it another way : if someone were to serve you a curry in a blind tasting, and you were to judge it not only as good as any curry you had ever eaten but (to the best of your recollection) identical in every way to the curries you ate back in the '70s, and the chef were then to reveal that he prepared it in a microwave oven using a Patak's concentrated curry sauce, would you then feel forced to re-assess your analysis of the meal and say "Well, perhaps I overstated my feelings : I don't really think it is similar to the curries of the '70s, and I have almost certainly eaten better" or would you re-assess what I will call your prejudices (I don't use the term perjoratively, as I am sure you know) and say "Wow, that is /incredible/ : I shall have to get hold of some of that sauce immediately and try it for myself" ?
** Phil.
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so long as the antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, bulking agents, etc., do not affect the flavour, their presence or absence makes no difference.
I think you're too busy contemplating your navel, Phil.
It is definitely not the case, is it, Phil? Patak pastes (because of the above additions) are acidic, tart and impart a distinctive taste to anything they are added to.
Haldi raised the question as to where all the decent BIRs have gone.
Secret Santa replied that, in his opinion, the more prevalent use of Patak pastes (and such like) by BIRs is probably one good reason (I'm sure there are others too) why today's BIRs are, apparently, inferior to those of the 70s and 80s.
I agreed with him. And still do. For the reasons cited.
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It is a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold, but surely it is just that : a viewpoint, rather than a proven fact. Let me put it another way : if someone were to serve you a curry in a blind tasting, and you were to judge it not only as good as any curry you had ever eaten but (to the best of your recollection) identical in every way to the curries you ate back in the '70s, and the chef were then to reveal that he prepared it in a microwave oven using a Patak's concentrated curry sauce, would you then feel forced to re-assess
All I can say is that I feel the proof is in the pudding, or rather this topic and the many others that can be found on this forum searching for 'the taste' or 'the smell' etc. Of course this is just my view point but although I can not prove it, (as I do not have the ingredients and methodology of the '70s & '80s BIR) I find it hard to believe that a jar of paste could deliver the same result.
That said, if in your scenario I had concluded the said microwaved paste incorporated curry as being as good and identical as a '70 & '80s BIR, I would be forced to re-assess. But more so to re-consider whether or not Patak's had actually influenced the '70s & '80s BIR.
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I think you're too busy contemplating your navel, Phil.
What you think of as contemplating one's navel, I think of as freeing one's mind. If Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton and Halley had not freed their minds, we would still believe in the terracentric universe of Ptolemy [1]. Is it not wiser to accept that the judicious use of some Patak's products /may/ have positive benefits in our efforts to re-create the traditional flavours of BIR cuisine rather than simply rejecting them as a nasty modern invention and (in the end) perhaps end up re-inventing the wheel ?
I am no advocate of Patak's products (although their Kashmiri masala is now the basis of my first-stage chicken preparation) but nor am I willing to rule them out entirely; rather, I prefer to retain an open mind and to judge them on the effect(s) they achieve and the flavours(s) they impart, and not on the basis of any preconceptions that I or others may harbour.
** Phil.
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[1] Challenging long-held beliefs is a daunting enterprise, but the effort can literally change the world. Although Copernicus is believed to have developed his revolutionary theory placing the sun, not the earth, at the center of the universe many years before his death, he anticipated the controversy it would evoke and published it from his deathbed. When Galileo sought to prove Copernicus's theory, he was brought before the Inquisition and threatened with torture. A heliocentric world raised too many uncomfortable questions. It rattled the status quo. But the discovery of a new tool, in this case the telescope, shed light on the problem and forever changed the way we view our place in the universe.
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I've kept out of the Patak's sauce debate because, when I feel the need to use a commercial paste, I prefer to use Laziza pastes, but this morning I went to my local asian wholesale shop (which supplies all the restaurants around here), and had a chat with the owner.
He also owns five restaurants, and freely admitted that they use Patak's pastes - but only in the preparation of tandoori/tikka dishes. This was backed up by the presence of catering size jars of Kashmiri, Tandoori and Tikka pastes on the shelves (all of which I've noticed whenever I've been into BIR kitchens).
He assured me that all the main dish curries were made the standard way with base gravy and ground spices, and having eaten in his restauraunts I have no reason to doubt him.
I asked him why Patak's pastes were used for tandoori/tikka dishes, and he said it was simply down to convenience and, given the huge quanities of tandoori / tikka marinades made each day in his restaurants, it was also about consistency.
He couldn't understand what the fuss was all about. "It has been this way for many years", he said, adding that tandoori and tikka dishes remain amongst the most popular on his restaurants' menus. "Customers like them. Why should I change something that works?"
My take on this whole 'death of the taste' is that, as in all types of cooking and cuisine, it is the skill of the chef that creates and determines the taste and quality of the dishes. If your local restaurant/takeaway isn't delivering the taste, look to the chef and his methods.
I know of two restaurants round my way that recently saw business plummet after their chefs were poached. The food went from stunning to bland literally overnight.
Of the five restaurants owned by the above mentioned wholesaler, I only bother with a couple of them. Why? because those have the best chefs.
Anyway, that's my take on it. It's not anything to do with pastes, but chefs. Always has been, and always will be...
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I Agree
I've explained the very same, SD, many times, but its like pi--ing against the wind.
Can anybody actually point me in the right direction for all these overwhelming CURRY recipes that rely on Pataks pastes please. ???
Apart from curries that need Red Masala or my Jhal Mix or Balti I haven't noticed many on here.
If you have enjoyed BIR Tandoori, Tikka and Kebabs over the past 30 years, you've been enjoying Pataks flavours, its that simple.
cheers Chewy
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Hi Chewy,
I have a TA near me (a really bad one at that) that admitted to using Patak's in most of his 'curry' dishes as well as his tandoori and tikka. I tell you, the tikka masala is by far the worse tikka masla I have ever eaten. What really amazes me is how the place is still trading. He obviously has a customer base that supports his business, but what demographic they are is anyone's guess.
As for Patak's in tikka for the last 30 years, perhaps you could add to the topic I posted recently. But I can only repeat the comments made by the owner of the IG recently when he said that they don't use Patak's in their tikka. Of course, I haven't been able to get back for a another demo on anything since the bhaji dem, but I will endeavour to ask for one on tikka and tandoori marinades.
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Is it not wiser to accept that the judicious use of some Patak's products /may/ have positive benefits in our efforts to re-create the traditional flavours of BIR cuisine rather than simply rejecting them as a nasty modern invention and (in the end) perhaps end up re-inventing the wheel ?
Phil, Patak's pastes are a nasty modern(ish) invention which have(in my opinion) played a major part in killing the authentic BIR taste. They add a nasty tart flavour to curries, which I abhor and, in BIR terms at least, I wish they and their ilk had never been invented.
To suggest that it might be wise to accept their use in reproducing traditional BIR cuisine is insane.
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Can anybody actually point me in the right direction for all these overwhelming CURRY recipes that rely on Pataks pastes please. ???
Apart from curries that need Red Masala or my Jhal Mix or Balti I haven't noticed many on here
I'm sorry CT but, besides the ones you've cited, there is much talk (including by yourself) of using "Naga" this and "Naga" that "paste/chutney/relish", etc. They were (also) not available to BIRs in the "old" days (i.e. prior to the 90s or 80s...or...to be reasonable and factual...before the 2000s!)!
If you have enjoyed BIR Tandoori, Tikka and Kebabs over the past 30 years, you've been enjoying Pataks flavours, its that simple.
But CT, we (at least some of us) are talking about BIR curries BEFORE 1980 (and I'd say you really mean to say, as far as the Patak influence goes, before about the 1990s)
Perhaps the truth of it is is that is doesn't much matter to most forum members nowadays....
And, let's be honest, you recently posted about a naan..with garlic...and ROSEMARY! (whatever rocks your boat, I suppose, but, as far as I'm concerned, it sure as hell aint "old school" BIR!)
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how do we know the use of pataks in the BIR trade is a modern thing? just a quick looky on there site there pastes first got into supermarkets in 1978
not that i really give one.
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Dear all,
I?m a newbie on the site so first of all a big hello and an equally big thanks for the amazing site. I?ve been dabbling in trying to replicate BIR curries for around 16 years so I?m very excited about finding this site and can see this is going to be addictive!
As a historian and someone who has been eating BIR curries from themed 1980s I?ve been following the thread with interest. Oral history has demonstrated that memory can be deceiving when it comes to people?s sense of taste confirming the old clich? ?things don?t taste as good as they used to be?. However, that doesn?t mean to say that this necessarily applies to everything. In this case, I also remember BIR curries from circa 1986 as very different to today?s fare. In particular, the vindaloos used to have a slightly thinner but manifestly darker sauce with a bit of a more smokey flavour (at least in my memory).
I can see that some of the members have been able to access restaurant and T-A kitchens and received some invaluable advice. But I guess we?re talking about a different generation of chefs. Given the traditional secrecy of chef disseminating their knowledge I wonder exactly how much of the old techniques have been passed down?
Apologies if this doesn?t exactly relate to Patak?s sauces, but this is a fascinating thread. At the end of the day perhaps the answer lies in a mixture of the changing nature of cooking as well as the effect of time on our memories?
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Phil, Patak's pastes are a nasty modern(ish) invention
Patak's was founded in the 1950s, I seem to recall; in terms of BIR, this is more or less the beginning.
which have(in my opinion) played a major part in killing the authentic BIR taste.
You may well be right : I am not disputing this.
They add a nasty tart flavour to curries, which I abhor
Again, used to excess, or as the only spicing, I agree; but used judiciously, to augment other flavours ? I am not so sure.
and, in BIR terms at least, I wish they and their ilk had never been invented.
If you (and many others) are right, and they are indeed responsible for the decline in standards, then I would agree; all I am arguing is that we should keep an open mind, and until we can (with reasonable certainty) prove that they are responsible, then I would not want to rule them out of our arsenal completely. As I remarked earlier, I really regard Patak's Kashmiri Masala as a godsend, and wish I had discovered it earlier. I still have to invest in my catering size Madras Tikka Paste, but I may well do so.
To suggest that it might be wise to accept their use in reproducing traditional BIR cuisine is insane.
If they can achieve the effect, then I am willing to accept them; if they cannot, they can go in the bin.
But one last comment : my spice cupboards and refrigerator now have far more Patak's products in them than they did when I started on my BIR quest : with KD, there were no Patak's products at all (apart from their lime pickle); but after joining this forum, and following various recipes from here, my stock of Patak's products has grown and grown ...
** Phil.
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how do we know the use of pataks in the BIR trade is a modern thing? just a quick looky on there site there pastes first got into supermarkets in 1978
UB, I doubt Patak pastes were commonly used by BIRs before about the 1990s (despite what the Patak website might claim.....I am happy to be proven wrong).
Nevertheless, the debate here is why has the quality of BIR curries declined in "recent" years?
It has been suggested that BIRs may, more and more, be using commercial pastes (such as Patak; I have rarely seen other brands mentioned; why, I don't know, because several seem to be of a better quality...i.e. fewer additives). And that this has led to a demise in the quality of BIR curries.
not that i really give one
If you care about the quality of BIR curries, then, surely you WOULD "really give one! :-\
Perhaps, if you agree that the quality of BIR curries has declined, you can suggest other possible reasons? If you disagree, then why don't you say so?
Otherwise, why the f*ck would you be here or even bother to comment?! :-X
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Dear all, [snip]
Welcome, Vinders : a truly worthwhile first post; I can see you being a great asset to our forum.
** Phil.
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I had a balti chicken and pilau rice from Rafiq's (used to be Sheer Khan) in Liverpool St John's market for my lunch today.
For the first time I could definitely taste vinegar in this curry and I reckon it is from a Pataks product.
The curry tasted ok really but would have been nicer without the tarty vinegar taste.
Paul
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not that i really give one
If you care about the quality of BIR curries, then, surely you WOULD "really give one! :-\
Perhaps, if you agree that the quality of BIR curries has declined, you can suggest other possible reasons? If you disagree, then why don't you say so?
Otherwise, why the f*ck would you be here or even bother to comment?! :-X
yeah your right CA i really need to get off the computa and get on a diet(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/avision247/4cfb5ec2.jpg)
just add a idea why dont we start a new curry forum site? www.bircurrysofthe1980/70/60/50s.com (http://www.bircurrysofthe1980/70/60/50s.com) or sumik like that and if we lucky we could get george to moderate it for us, ?
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Phil (and others) let's cut to the chase shall we?
I'm a consumate devil's advocate myself, but if you think that Patak's pastes play any part in a good BIR curry then you are in the wrong place.
To be explicit, so as to warrant no confusion, Patak's pates are to (authentic, glorious, tasty, aromatic) BIR curries what Pot Noodles are to fine Chinese dining.
They are, without a doubt, the most obnoxious, odious and rank fermentations to grace the name of BIR curries.
The problem, of course, is that the young turks know nothing else. BIR curries contaminated with this glop is standard fare to the new generation. But that doesn't make it right. And I'll be dipped in the combined washings of a thousand half-eaten bhoonas before I accede to this plague on the noble BIR flavour and aroma.
Phil, plainly and simply, Patak's pastes are for home cooks and lazy BIR restaurants. I'm disheartened that you appear to be defending their use in any form.
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yeah your right CA i really need to get off the computa and get on a diet(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/avision247/4cfb5ec2.jpg)
Jesus UB, I didn't know you were aquainted with my sister! ;D
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[long snip]
Santa, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do not doubt that others share your views. To be honest, I shared them, until I discovered that so many recipes on this site seemed to require them. At that point, I re-thought my attitude, and decided that if others could see merit in them, it would be perverse of me to just pretend that they don't exist. And as I said before, I am genuinely grateful that I did, because otherwise I would not have discovered Kashmiri Masala.
I'm disheartened that you appear to be defending their use in any form.
I am defending the right of CR0 members (including myself) to experiment with them and report their findings; unless we do this, then all judgement will be on hearsay rather than evidence, and we will all be the poorer for that.
** Phil.
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Phil - out of curiosity, how is it that you're using the Kashmiri Masala beyond tikka?
Personally, I echo the sentiment of a previous poster on this topic that noted the use of Patak's is limited to tikka marinade and red masala (in CTM only). I've noticed over the last year or so, more dishes using small amounts of red masala, but not to the point that the introduction of Pataks materially affects the chef's ability to create a Madras or Vindaloo...
- Josh
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Phil - out of curiosity, how is it that you're using the Kashmiri Masala beyond tikka?
I forget why I bought it in the first place (maybe from feedback/suggestions for improving Blade's Chicken Tikka ? I don't know) but having bought it I wanted to find out what flavours it imparted, so I cooked some chicken livers using it :
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8517.msg75397#msg75397 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8517.msg75397#msg75397)
The results were out of this world; far far better than any Indian/Nepali chicken livers I have ever cooked before. So, from that point on, I was addicted. I now use Kashmiri Masala and Turmeric as the two spices in my stage-1 chicken preparation, and often (but not always) add the liquid in which they were cooked (oil, base, g/g paste) back into the main sauce when the latter is nearing completion.
** Phil.
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I can see that some of the members have been able to access restaurant and T-A kitchens and received some invaluable advice. But I guess we?re talking about a different generation of chefs. Given the traditional secrecy of chef disseminating their knowledge I wonder exactly how much of the old techniques have been passed down?
Welcome Vinders,
There are still old school chefs out there, though granted less and less these days. But my favourite restaurant the Indian Garden to which I have had access to the kitchen in the past, can boast that the brothers (proprietor and head chef) first open it's doors in the very early 70's and continue to provide first class curry to this day.
Every chance I get to talk 'shop' with them I do. Over the years I have understood to a small degree at least, why the 'secrets' have not been passed on. Several barriers exist translation being one of them. After gaining access to see an onion bhaji demo, it soon became obvious that to me that translation could account for many mistakes. Their knowledge of English names for certain spices etc. is very poor, so they tend to refer to things as closely as possible. For instance, I was told to use fennel when actually what I needed was aniseed, similar in flavour yes, but aniseed is superior. So had I used fennel, it would have resulted in a lesser dish, albeit marginal.
There other factors, trust is another one, it has taken me along time to build enough trust for me to pry into the workings of their kitchen, but i'm still working on it. Another explanation would be the younger generations. I know for a fact that the proprietor had intended to pass the restaurant onto his sons. Unfortunately they are not interested which means when he finally retires, the restaurant will be sold and the legacy that is the Indian Garden will be no more. No doubt it will be bought and run as an Indian restaurant, but it's very unlikely that it's chef will be from Bangladesh armed with age old recipes and techniques.
Another factor that should also be considered is the chef himself. Take the Shanaz which I visit on a regular basis, despite the fact the head chef and his protege having been cooking together since the 90's, there are differences between their dishes. The head chef instinctively cooks his dishes, whereas his understudy is cooking the same dishes, but to instruction. That's not to say the dishes are poor on the contrary, but you can detect slight differences in them.
Add all of this up and it's no surprise that the 70's curry has all but disappeared.
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Another explanation would be the younger generations. I know for a fact that the proprietor had intended to pass the restaurant onto his sons. Unfortunately they are not interested which means when he finally retires, the restaurant will be sold and the legacy that is the Indian Garden will be no more. No doubt it will be bought and run as an Indian restaurant, but it's very unlikely that it's chef will be from Bangladesh armed with age old recipes and techniques.
Axe, you must start saving your pennies /now/ : I can think of no more qualified future owner than your good self, and with any luck you can persuade the Chef to remain in post for another five years whilst you learn at his side ...
** Phil.
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Many thanks for the warm welcome Phil and Axe.
It would be a great shame if the chef's legacy went to waste. What an excellent opportunity to learn from what must be one of the few remaining chefs of that generation.
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I fear i'm not cut out for such a task Phil, I love cooking but professionally, i'm not so sure. But thanks for the vote of confidence. 8)
Vinners, I hold myself fortunate having experienced the demo, it was overwhelming. I was like a school boy in a sweet shop! My experiences pale in significance to others on this forum though. But every little helps as they say. :)
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As far as I can see, pastes are now being used as a matter of conveinience, but more importantly, as a matter of speed.
If, say you're average takeaway can only put out 300 curries on a busy night by preparing curries in the "old" way, but by adding a spoonfull of this or that they can then get out 500 curries, well, it's a simple matter of economics. They are well aware that with other added ingredients, it is still a tasty option for the "average" punter, who is either too ignorant/lazy to cook his/her own, or who doesn't have the inclination to do so.
If the premises are paying HUGE rents, and they can increase turnover in this way, then it is an easy way out, and the newer generations have accepted the taste and are happy to pay for it.
Nostalgia aside, the curry's of the 70's and 80's WERE so much tastier........END OF STORY. It is isn't just fond memories, they were gorgeous.
As for pastes in tikka/seekh...well i don't know. I rememeber having seekh kebabs down Wilmslow Rd in the 80's and they tasted absolutely divine. However, at the local curry houses in Manchester's outskirts, they were obviously made with pastes. (I didn't know this at the time, but since discovering CR0, I do know the difference in taste now)
Seeing as I left UK in '96, I cannot comment on recent takeaway/restaurant curries, apart from trips back home , where I have sampled curries that are OK, to others that were sublime. Even the OK ones knocked the spots off you're average OZ/NZ piss weak watery shite. 8)
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Indian Restauranteur : What the Brits want is food that looks good, has an interesting name, and dosen't taste of anything.
Yes, a local restaurant owner said this to me.
Anyway, the change came to East Anglia around 2005 / 2006. Within two years the old style Curry Houses had all gone, replaced by what I think of as Modern Indian Restaurants. [ MIR's ? ] All light and airy, no flock wallpaper, but more significantly, none of the old familiar smells. New 'modernised' menus appeared, some places even dropping the old favourites, the Madrasses and vindaloos. They would make them if you asked, but they now tended to be meat with a little chilli and some watery gravy, no attempt being made to make a sauce. And everything BLAND. The more trendy places started experimenting with Indo-French/Italian fusion cookery - Spagetti Bombay, Pasta Madras. Worst of all, English game cookery. They seemed ashamed of their origins, adopting names like La Ristorante Indienne, Labone, etc.
Sorry folks, I think the party's over. It's all down to DIY now. If it hasn't reached you yet, it soon will.
D.
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DEE-pressing ...
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Indian Restauranteur : What the Brits want is food that looks good, has an interesting name, and dosen't taste of anything.
Hi D,
Interesting comment, i've had similar from the Shanaz and your following post is reminiscent of what used to be my favourite local BIR.
Sri India as it's now called was once a single store fronted Indian restaurant typical in it's decor. The staff were welcoming and friendly and the food was produced to good standards. It wasn't quite IG but still very good and I was happy to order from them week after week. Then one day it simply closed it's doors.
The original staff I had found working in various other outlets as we had been forced to find a new TA. We later found out that the owners had closed it to build a 'new' restaurant. What they actually did was by the property next door and then knock the two into one. They spent alot of money turning what was a warm and inviting little restaurant into a huge open air modern affair with glittered marble floors and blue under lighting, they eve n had an open view kitchen. Thing was, it took them over 18 months to do this, so we had all but given up on them and found alternatives, or rather had given up on local curry. Good job I found this forum!
Anyway, the place finally opened as the Sri India and to their credit, looked pretty good despite the massive character change. However, along with the face change also came a menu change and a new chef, shipped all the way from the mother land. Everything had changed, prices had gone up, portions had shrunk and specialty dishes, flooded the menu. We gave the restaurant our best shot and ordered 4 or 5 times, but every time, had been disappointed one way or another. And to make matters worse, the open kitchen set-up allowed me to see that on my last order, my main was taken from a fridge and microwaved! :o
Needless to say, we have never returned and are very unlikely to. :-\
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[/quote]
And to make matters worse, the open kitchen set-up allowed me to see that on my last order, my main was taken from a fridge and microwaved! :o
[/quote]
Thats terrible. I would've got up, paid for what you may have had for an entree and given an explanation for your departure.
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My first TA was from a place called Naffees in Leeds circa 1982 I think. There werent the names of curries were accustomed to now either. So typically I would order mince and spinach, with a chapatti. I recall the food as being really good, but the trouble is I would have been comparing then with my mums curry attempts, which were heavy on the sultanas. I do remember more clearly though the curries of Wilmslow Road from the late 80s to the mid-90s. Some were truly amazing, some not so great, and many of the restaurants were inconsistent at best. When I found the Dharbar it was the banker for a long time. One of the young waiters there (Wasseem) would always remind us that, "this place is the best on strip", it was imo, but eventually that also went downhill. I can?t remember when exactly but the turning point did coincide with more and more restaurants popping up next to each other. The prices went up and the portion sizes reduced. The curries were missing something it seemed. The standard of service dropped. And to cap it off, garlic salt on the naans! I gave up going and started eating pasta.
Perhaps part of the problem was adding the pastes and I didnt realize it then. On discovering BIR cooking myself about a year ago I was quite surprised to see Pataks pastes being suggested as a way to lift a curry to another level. I kept thinking, surely, ?supermarket level?. Did try the usual 3 recommended but Im afraid they have now all gone in the bin. So I would agree pretty much with Secret Santa, it has no place in my curry at the moment. I dont really bother with CTM; made a few early on for the good lady, who said they were pretty good, ?like a takeaway?. But have since made her 976bars Chicken Pasanda and she has been much more complementary; ?This is restaurant food?, ?The best curry I?ve ever had?, etc. So it looks like the CTM has had its day in our house. However, I still regularly make a lot of chicken tikka. I sometimes add a small amount of Simtom Tandoori paste to the marinade, but wouldnt panic if Id forgotten to put it in. What I find odd about Pataks pastes is that basically all of the Asian shops and supermarkets seem to pack their shelves with it (Sparkhill for example), both the standard size jars and the trade size tubs. Yet, during all my visits over the past 12 months, when queuing for the checkout, I have never seen anyone buy a single jar/tub.
Rob
Ps. If anyone like me is new to BIR cooking and someone in your house likes the sweet creamy dishes, do check this one out. Its a cracker.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8175.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8175.0)
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I know of two restaurants round my way that recently saw business plummet after their chefs were poached. The food went from stunning to bland literally overnight.
Of the five restaurants owned by the above mentioned wholesaler, I only bother with a couple of them. Why? because those have the best chefs.
Anyway, that's my take on it. It's not anything to do with pastes, but chefs. Always has been, and always will be...
Too true SD.
When i was a kid, me old man and his circle of friends would always follow the chefs when we heard that one of our favourites had been poached.(quite commonplace) Thankfully, it was never too far away.
One thing thats always crossed my mind when i watch a video of a chef in a kitchen or see a recipe posted here from a BIR/TA chef is,
Maybe they're not that great a chef in the first place.
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Perhaps part of the problem was adding the pastes and I didnt realize it then. On discovering BIR cooking myself about a year ago I was quite surprised to see Pataks pastes being suggested as a way to lift a curry to another level. I kept thinking, surely, ?supermarket level?. Did try the usual 3 recommended but Im afraid they have now all gone in the bin. So I would agree pretty much with Secret Santa, it has no place in my curry at the moment. I dont really bother with CTM; made a few early on for the good lady, who said they were pretty good, ?like a takeaway?. But have since made her 976bars Chicken Pasanda and she has been much more complementary; ?This is restaurant food?, ?The best curry I?ve ever had?, etc. So it looks like the CTM has had its day in our house. However, I still regularly make a lot of chicken tikka. I sometimes add a small amount of Simtom Tandoori paste to the marinade, but wouldnt panic if Id forgotten to put it in. What I find odd about Pataks pastes is that basically all of the Asian shops and supermarkets seem to pack their shelves with it (Sparkhill for example), both the standard size jars and the trade size tubs. Yet, during all my visits over the past 12 months, when queuing for the checkout, I have never seen anyone buy a single jar/tub.
Rob
Ps. If anyone like me is new to BIR cooking and someone in your house likes the sweet creamy dishes, do check this one out. Its a cracker.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8175.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8175.0)
You're not the only to be surprised to find Pataks being quite a large influence of late. Ive only been here a short while and have since bought a jar of pataks tandoori paste to make Blades chicken tikka. Ive been after the perfect tikka for years. Though im wondering why cant I just use some tamarind instead as apparently thats the only reason he used it. Im very very happy with the result. Not sure thought whether its the use of the pataks or the non use of yoghurt in the marinade. Thats as far as I'll go though. Ive been cooking traditional indian for years because of my distaste for curries in a jar and I just couldnt bring myself to use it in a main. Ive also noticed 976s pasanda and its on my list to do for my wife. It is very similar to the butter chicken dishes down here. All makes for very good reading seeing the fors and againsts.
Cheers
Steve
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Thats terrible. I would've got up, paid for what you may have had for an entree and given an explanation for your departure.
Isn't it just! I would have only I had already paid as I was taking it away. I was quite honestly bewildered by the experience. Why design an openly viewed kitchen if you then demonstrate your expert chef skills at turning a timer on a microwave? Baffled, completely!
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I can only remember from when I started eating curries in 1989 and even restaurants when from the sublime to the ridiculous in the same street ( I started eating curry in Preston, church st).
It does seem however that when I'm back in the U.K restaurants that used to be good, have gone bad... I notice more sauce, less meat, more chunks of onion, less taste in general. I can only really comment from the perspective of living in France where I talk to many restauranteurs. It's the same story, ever increasing food prices and reduced margins. Many restaurants in the fast food trade like to keep there prices fixed, so in order to keep ther margins they have to reduce quality. I know a pizza resuarant near me that hasn't increased their prices for about 10 years, the pizzas used to have things on them, not any more.
Obviously, restaurants have 2 options they either decrease quality or increase the price. Using pastes and sauces is one way of reducing costs. I have absolutely no idea if the good or bad curries I have eaten have used Pataks or any other jarred sauce but from personal experience whenever I use a premade paste I notice bitter undertones and too much salt, this goes for jars of ginger/ garlic puree.
I also notice when I come back to the U.K that a menu in any pub or restaurant has to describe the ingredients/ cooking method and various other Jamie oliverations such as 'suculent, gorgeous, fantastic.....' . In France it would be called ' Beef with potatoes'. I'm sure this is slipping into the curry trade as well. People don't wan't to eat Madras they want specials and they want to know every detail about it.
Sorry to be wittering on but I'm still on holiday so I had acouple of beers....
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I also notice when I come back to the U.K that a menu in any pub or restaurant has to describe the ingredients/ cooking method and various other Jamie oliverations such as 'suculent, gorgeous, fantastic.....' . In France it would be called ' Beef with potatoes'.
You must be thinking of : Seared fillet of English beef rolled in horseradish cream and herbs served on a confit of mushrooms and topped with puff pastry lid speared with rosemary and sprig of redcurrants on a fondant roasted potato with spring greens, drizzled with a redcurrant and red wine jus
and Plat de c
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I can only remember from when I started eating curries in 1989 and even restaurants when from the sublime to the ridiculous in the same street ( I started eating curry in Preston, church st).
hey hey - me too!! Only a couple of years later in 90 when I moved there from Morecambe and my mother in law (from Preston) introduced them to me! Ah the memories!
Cheers!
Steve
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You must be thinking of : Seared fillet of English beef rolled in horseradish cream and herbs served on a confit of mushrooms and topped with puff pastry lid speared with rosemary and sprig of redcurrants on a fondant roasted potato with spring greens, drizzled with a redcurrant and red wine jus
;D ;D ;D
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I am pleased to say the taste is alive and kicking in my neck of the woods , south east england. Spoilt for choice ! I do find if i am in london the taste is much more similar to what i have learnt from cro.
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Out of interest, do members have the impression that this change has affected all curries across the board, or have some e.g. the biryani remained relatively unadulterated?
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Out of interest, do members have the impression that this change has affected all curries across the board, or have some e.g. the biryani remained relatively unadulterated?
I think that biryanies are now frequently simplified. Whereas I have (once) seen a biryani served decorated with gold leaf (the Agra, Whitfield Street, London) and usually decorated with sliced egg, sliced tomato and sliced cucumber, these days all I seem to get is a mixture of rice and meat, sometimes with the odd sultana which I don't really want ...
** Phil.
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I am pleased to say the taste is alive and kicking in my neck of the woods , south east england. Spoilt for choice !
Share, Derek, share : there are more of us in the South-East than you might realise !
** Phil.
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Who do you call for 5 tonnes of curry paste?
http://www.curryhouse.co.uk/scene/simtom.html (http://www.curryhouse.co.uk/scene/simtom.html)
This article sort of backs up comments that not all TAs/restaurants have the time (or skills) to make the curries of old any more. It seems this company supply a lot to the trade and apparently have also been going since the seventies. Their online brochure is also quite interesting (link is at the bottom of the page).
http://www.simtom.co.uk/ (http://www.simtom.co.uk/)
Some time ago I rang them to find where I could buy the products. Couldnt find any in Birmingham anywhere. Turns out you have to be a trader to get their pastes etc, but they suggested that I try my local Lidl or Aldi, who sometimes sell some of the range. Sure enough, I found some jars of Simtom ?Restaurant Style? Tandoori marinade and some of their pickles/chutneys in Lidl. This paste I felt was similar to Pataks but superior (I?m not sure why). Tell you what though, their Lime & Chili chutney and the ?Award Winning? Papaya & Lime chutney are very nice indeed. Way better then anything I?ve tasted before.
Rob
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Hi phil , good to hear that !
Rye has a new bir , which is pretty good , up the main high street
if i am driving thru , a takeaway usually suddenly appears in my car ! from where i do not know :)
Each time it grows in size ;)
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http://www.simtom.co.uk/ (http://www.simtom.co.uk/)
Some time ago I rang them to find where I could buy the products. Couldnt find any in Birmingham anywhere. Turns out you have to be a trader to get their pastes etc,
That may be about to change : the Madras Sauce page says "FOR SALE ONLINE SOON". But it also says some other (and rather questionable) things, such as "Water separates and may settle at the top" (surely that would be the oil : oil /floats/ on water) and "Once opened this product can be kept for up to 3 days in the fridge" (3 days ? Crikey, I keep raw sausages 5 times longer than that !).
** Phil.
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Online shop seems to be up and running:
http://www.simtom.co.uk/category/online-shop (http://www.simtom.co.uk/category/online-shop)
I might try one or two of their pickles/chutneys and maybe a chilli sauce or two....
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Online shop seems to be up and running:
So it is (pity they didn't pre-scale the images). So I vote that Secret Santa and Cory Ander, as the fiercest critics of pre-made curry pastes, be volunteered to try these and publish their findings :)
** Phil.
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I think I'll just stick to the chutneys. Just checked and its the Tandoori BBQ marinade I've got. It's pretty thick stuff. Ingredients and info:
Water
Garlic (19 %)
Coriander (5 %)
Cumin, Salt, Ginger
Acidity Regulator (sodium diacetate)
Food Acid (Citric)
Rusk (Wheat Flour, Salt, Raising agent (ammonium bicarbonate)
Turmeric, Tamarind (1 %), Chilli, Food Acid (Citric),
Colours: E120, E122. Vegetable Oil, Preservative: Sodium Metabisulphite.
Allergen Advice: Contains Wheat and Sulphites
E122 may have an adverse effect on activity and attention in children
Water separates and may settle at the top, please stir well before use. Once opened store in a cool dry place away from direct sunlight. Use within 6 months after opening.
On the chutney front I found the Lime & Chilli the best, with Papaya and Lime a close second (found some whole green cardamoms in this one that were very nice indeedy). The good lady liked the Onion chutney but I didnt. The Pineapple chutney was disappointing. I think they were all ?1.30 or ?1.40 each from Lidl, possibly less. Quite tempted by the Bombay Blush Mango Chutney. Sounds nice anyway.
Rob
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Out of interest, do members have the impression that this change has affected all curries across the board, or have some e.g. the biryani remained relatively unadulterated?
I think that biryanies are now frequently simplified. Whereas I have (once) seen a biryani served decorated with gold leaf (the Agra, Whitfield Street, London) and usually decorated with sliced egg, sliced tomato and sliced cucumber, these days all I seem to get is a mixture of rice and meat, sometimes with the odd sultana which I don't really want ...
** Phil.
That's how I remember Biryanis, always some saltanas and cashews and topped with sliced boiled egg, cucumber and tomato and with a sublime mild spicing and coconut flavour. The taste of these was a world apart from the basic fried-up pilau that now constitutes a Biryani (don't make me laugh!). It's just another delectable dish that has fallen foul of price cutting and sub-standard chefs (actually these people aren't chefs at all).
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Online shop seems to be up and running:
So it is (pity they didn't pre-scale the images). So I vote that Secret Santa and Cory Ander, as the fiercest critics of pre-made curry pastes, be volunteered to try these and publish their findings :)
** Phil.
I know you're only joking Phil (you are aren't you? :-\) but I really am vehemently opposed to the use of any pastes because I know they have played a huge part in killing the best food Britain had, i.e. the old style BIR curry.
They've started to make more appearances on this forum, undoubtedly because some of the recent books have started to incorporate them after the authors see them being used in modern BIRs. You can keep the pastes and those books!
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Secret Santa and Cory Ander, as the fiercest critics of pre-made curry pastes
Listen up, Phil, I never said that at all! :o
The debate about Patak pastes (and commercially produced curry pastes, in general) arose because Haldi asked why he is unable to buy BIR curries with the "taste" anymore.
Secret Santa suggested it was possibly due to the more prevalent use of Patak pastes, compared with BIR curries of the 70s and 80s. I agreed that it is a distinct possibility (and highly probable).
Admittedly, Haldi said it was a "sudden change", which may or may not preclude the more recent, and more prevalent, use of Patak pastes (or other commercially available pastes). There may be many other reasons, of course.
Why you would go off, at cocked hat, and describe your experiment with a significantly adulterated (and completely different) Patak commercial curry sauce, I do not know. Totally irrelevant, in my opinion. And. as stated before, I tried these Patak sauces decades ago. Incidentally, perhaps you should have sent the resultant curry, to Haldi, to deduce if it was the "taste" that is now missing from his BIR curries! ::)
Having said all that, I regularly (and judiciously) use commercial curry pastes (including Pataks....though I prefer Ferns and Ahmeds) in my curries. And I do find they can "add a little something". But they also "add a little something" distinct and undesirable (as previously described and for the reasons cited).
Nevertheless, the "little something" that they "add" bears little resemblance to those decent BIR curries of yesteryear (or how they were then made), in my opinion. And I stick by that.
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Reckon I?ll start quizzing the guys at a TA I know on their knowledge of ye olde BIR curry. The main chef there looks deceptively young, but I'll bet he is in his 60s.
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This had undoubtedly been raised or perhaps discussed and rejected for very good reasons so bear with my newbie ideas, but perhaps a what is needed is a CRO sponsored competition for old-school curry chefs to see if they can still reproduce 'the taste', and even better divulge some of their secrets before the legacy of their trade disappears... This would provide us with answers whilst also calling public attention to the change (for the worst) in BIR.
Just an idea...
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Why you would go off, at cocked hat, and describe your experiment with a significantly adulterated (and completely different) Patak commercial curry sauce, I do not know. Totally irrelevant, in my opinion.
Of course it is irrelevant, CA : it is in a different thread (http://antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, bulking agents, etc.,) ("Product review : Patak's tinned (concentrated) Vindaloo sauce"); why should it be relevant to the discussion in this thread ?
And, contrary to your beliefs, I did not go off at half cock [1] at all -- I took the trouble to review the product because the slagging-off to which "Impecunious of the Wyre" was subjected when he had the temerity to advocate the product (and defend his advocacy) in his very first posts to the forum.
** Phil.
--------
[1] Presumably this was what you meant, mentally confusing "Going off at half cock" with "Talking out of your cocked hat"
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This had undoubtedly been raised or perhaps discussed and rejected for very good reasons so bear with my newbie ideas, but perhaps a what is needed is a CRO sponsored competition for old-school curry chefs to see if they can still reproduce 'the taste', and even better divulge some of their secrets before the legacy of their trade disappears... This would provide us with answers whilst also calling public attention to the change (for the worst) in BIR. Just an idea...
Nice idea, Vinders, but I doubt the CR) has the financial resources to sponsor such an event. It is hard enough for Stew to extract the odd GBP 100 from us when he needs to buy further network resources ! What we /might/ do (particularly if anyone has contacts in television) is to suggest the idea to some TV producers : it would have almost everything that modern-day television seems to require : emphasis on food, central roles for members of an ethnic minority, competition -- all that is lacking is the ousting of one chef a week until only one remains !
** Phil.
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Of course it is irrelevant, CA : it is in a different thread (http://antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, bulking agents, etc.,) ("Product review : Patak's tinned (concentrated) Vindaloo sauce"); why should it be relevant to the discussion in this thread ?
Uh, because you related (and seemingly confused) the two topics, in both threads, Phil? ::)
e.g. In your (which was the) first post in that thread, you wrote:
To address Cory Ander's and Secret Santa's criticisms, let me repeat them here and then address them one by one
And you go on, in a similar vein, and on, and.... ::)
It seems we both agree, then, that you relating comments made in this thread, to that thread, was totally irrelevant! ???
In that thread, you then went on to quote me as saying something in this thread (which I did) and then related it to Patak vindaloo sauce (in your other thread) claiming that I was "two thirds wrong". Which was totally irrelevant to that thread! So who's confused, Phil, really? ::)
And you (rather confusingly, it seems to me) come out with your previous "trollish" comments (hoping to solicit an emotive response, it seems to me), in this thread, about me being one of the two "fiercest critics of pre-made pastes"....which is total b*llocks (as I have already explained above)!
And, contrary to your beliefs, I did not go off at half cock [1] at all
Yes you did. You tried, it seemed to me, to be overly clever (acting like a typical troll, in my opinion, trying to solicit emotive responses, as you are still trying to do here) and tried to prove your very poor point (about how useful Patak pastes are) , in a totally irrelevant way (i.e. irrelevant to the points that were made about Patak pastes in this thread) on another thread!
Perhaps we can focus on the topic of this thread (rather than continuing to argue the toss about the virtues, or not, of Patak pastes)....
....why do the BIRs, in Haldi's area, no longer produce curries with "the taste"?
Perhaps you have something useful to contribute to that debate Phil (rather than angst)? :o
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Uh, because you related (and seemingly confused) the two topics, in both threads, Phil? ::)
Threads don't exist in isolation, CA : they are all part of one great Universe of Discourse, and when something written in one thread impinges on discussion in another, it would be perverse (or foolish) to pretend that it does not exist.
It seems we both agree, then, that you relating comments made in this thread, to that thread, was totally irrelevant! ???
No, the specific message to which you referred (the initial message entitled "Product Review : ...") was irrelevant to this thread, which is why it started a thread of its own; but later discussion in each thread had some relevance to the discussion in the other.
In that thread, you then went on to quote me as saying something in this thread (which I did) and then related it to Patak vindaloo sauce (in your other thread) claiming that I was "two thirds wrong". Which was totally irrelevant to that thread! So who's confused, Phil, really? ::)
You are. You made this assertion "Patak take spices (let's give them the benefit of the doubt here) and reconstituted ingredients and then add antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, salt, bulking agents, etc," and I pointed out that, in the case of their concentrated curry sauce at least, 2/3 of these alleged ingredients were absent, and that the only one to which one could legitimately take exception was the bulking agent.
And you (rather confusingly, it seems to me) come out with your previous "trollish" comments (hoping to solicit an emotive response, it seems to me), in this thread, about me being one of the two "fiercest critics of pre-made pastes"....which is total b*llocks (as I have already explained above)!
As Secret Santa had the intelligence to appreciate, that remark was made as a joke.
Perhaps we can focus on the topic of this thread (rather than continuing to argue the toss about the virtues, or not, of Patak pastes)....
Since, in your initial post in this thread, you agreed that the adoption of commercial 's paste was, at least in part, to blame :
.....Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing...
I agree. The (more recent) use of commercial pastes is an obvious difference between "old style" BIR curries and "new style" BIR curries.
it ill behoves you to now try to prevent others from commenting on that assertion : you made the observation, and others have the right to reply. No-one is acting as a troll, but sometimes it is necessary to play devil's advocate in order to ensure that the received wisdom is not just blindly accepted as a fact.
** Phil.
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Of course it is irrelevant, CA : it is in a different thread ("Product review : Patak's tinned (concentrated) Vindaloo sauce"); why should it be relevant to the discussion in this thread ?
Threads don't exist in isolation, CA : they are all part of one great Universe of Discourse, and when something written in one thread impinges on discussion in another, it would be perverse (or foolish) to pretend that it does not exist
Hmmm, and now I expect everyone else is also as confused as you seem to be about your own posts Phil ???
Perhaps we can focus on the topic of this thread (rather than continuing to argue the toss about the virtues, or not, of Patak pastes)..
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Of course it is irrelevant, CA : it is in a different thread ("Product review : Patak's tinned (concentrated) Vindaloo sauce"); why should it be relevant to the discussion in this thread ?
Threads don't exist in isolation, CA : they are all part of one great Universe of Discourse, and when something written in one thread impinges on discussion in another, it would be perverse (or foolish) to pretend that it does not exist
Hmmm, and now I expect everyone else is also as confused as you seem to be about your own posts Phil ???#
Did you somehow manage to overlook this part, CA ? It addresses the very point that you are (laboriously, and seemingly interminably) seeking to make.
the specific message to which you referred (the initial message entitled "Product Review : ...") was irrelevant to this thread, which is why it started a thread of its own; but later discussion in each thread had some relevance to the discussion in the other.
Perhaps we can focus on the topic of this thread (rather than continuing to argue the toss about the virtues, or not, of Patak pastes)..
"Physician, heal thyself".
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Did you somehow manage to overlook this part, CA ? It addresses the very point that you are (laboriously, and seemingly interminably) seeking to make.
the specific message to which you referred (the initial message entitled "Product Review : ...") was irrelevant to this thread, which is why it started a thread of its own; but later discussion in each thread had some relevance to the discussion in the other.
No, I didn't miss it, but I thought it to be absolute twaddle and contradictory (again).
Your twaddle about "but later discussion in each thread had some relevance to the discussion" is just that; twaddle. I therefore treated it with the contempt it deserved (by ignoring it....as I will (probably) do with your future replies on the matter).
All the "later discussion" happened, by you, in your very first post of your thread where you rather stupidly combined unrelated comments, from elsewhere, and took them totally out of context!
And now you're stupid enough to try and defend it... ::)
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I therefore treated with the contempt it deserved (by ignoring it....as I will (probably) do with your future replies on the matter).
Splendid news : I am sure that the other members of the forum will be greatly relieved to read that.
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Splendid news : I am sure that the other members of the forum will be greatly relieved to read that.
PS: Where is your Madras recipe, that you promised me, please? I really would love to try it (even if it does include Patak paste) ;)
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Splendid news : I am sure that the other members of the forum will be greatly relieved to read that.
PS: Where is your Madras recipe, that you promised me, please? I really would love to try it (even if it does include Patak paste) ;)
Not yet re-tested : this week I have been cooking mainly Chinese food (Chicken with chilli & black bean sauce, chicken with Chinese mushrooms in oyster sauce, ...) and tomorrow is scheduled to be English lamb steaks. Once I get a chance to make another Chicken Madras I will be sure to document it. And yes, of course it will almost certainly contain Patak's Kashmiri Masala paste, as a part of the preparation of the stage-1 chicken : Patak's pastes may, in general, contribute negatively to the BIR experience, but their Kashmiri Masala paste is another matter altogether (IMHO, of course).
** Phil.
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Phil,
Frankly, I'm not particularly interested in what you've mainly been cooking this week, or what you plan to cook tomorrow ("laborious", you say?), but I really would like to try your Madras recipe....at your earliest convenience, if you please...and please don't forget ;)
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Sorry fella's
Once again, an interesting and usefull thread turns into a Phil v CA thread.
I've learned LOADS of usefull stuff on CRO, but it seems lately that everything turns to arguments......WHY????
Please take a chill pill and calm down. We all have differing opinions, and healthy debate is healthy, but slanging matches help none of us that are eager to learn.
I love ya both...............please love us all back..............please. 8) 8)
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Nice idea, Vinders, but I doubt the CR) has the financial resources to sponsor such an event. It is hard enough for Stew to extract the odd GBP 100 from us when he needs to buy further network resources ! What we /might/ do (particularly if anyone has contacts in television) is to suggest the idea to some TV producers : it would have almost everything that modern-day television seems to require : emphasis on food, central roles for members of an ethnic minority, competition -- all that is lacking is the ousting of one chef a week until only one remains !
** Phil.
[/quote]
That would make for excellent viewing Phil, unfortunately I don't know anyone in media. I wonder if any of the other members do? Whether or nor CRO could provide financial help is another question, though perhaps there are other ways of approaching the question - perhaps some municipalities would be in favour of sponsoring a project (especially where there is an annual Indian-themed event in Southampton) or even some of the spice manufacturers. All this with help from CRO. It wouldn't be easy but maybe not impossible. On the other hand, maybe I should get back to the cooking ...
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Sorry fella's -- Once again, an interesting and usefull thread turns into a Phil v CA thread. I've learned LOADS of usefull stuff on CRO, but it seems lately that everything turns to arguments......WHY???? Please take a chill pill and calm down. We all have differing opinions, and healthy debate is healthy, but slanging matches help none of us that are eager to learn. I love ya both...............please love us all back..............please. 8) 8)
Apologies, Mike; apologies all. You were quite right to take us to task, and I can only apologise for allowing myself to be drawn into this pointless (and seemingly endless) debate. I will endeavour to ensure that I do not allow it to happen again.
** Phil.
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That would make for excellent viewing Phil, unfortunately I don't know anyone in media. I wonder if any of the other members do? Whether or nor CRO could provide financial help is another question, though perhaps there are other ways of approaching the question - perhaps some municipalities would be in favour of sponsoring a project (especially where there is an annual Indian-themed event in Southampton) or even some of the spice manufacturers. All this with help from CRO. It wouldn't be easy but maybe not impossible. On the other hand, maybe I should get back to the cooking ...
Definitely not ! Ideas such as yours are a great way to breath new life into this forum. Sadly I too do not know anyone in television (well, not in this country, at least, and I can't see the Czech Republic -- where I do have contacts -- being overly interested in the idea ...). So, over to the other members of the forum ...
** Phil.
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Don't want to make a big thing about this but well said Aussie Mick totally agree what you said and having the balls to say it.
And Phil hands up for apologising
Sometimes if its not positive then best not to answer at all
Since being on this site my curries have improved so much with the help from this forum
So lets be positive with some fun
We are all in the same boat here or curry house :)
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That would make for excellent viewing Phil, unfortunately I don't know anyone in media. I wonder if any of the other members do? Whether or nor CRO could provide financial help is another question, though perhaps there are other ways of approaching the question - perhaps some municipalities would be in favour of sponsoring a project (especially where there is an annual Indian-themed event in Southampton) or even some of the spice manufacturers. All this with help from CRO. It wouldn't be easy but maybe not impossible. On the other hand, maybe I should get back to the cooking ...
Definitely not ! Ideas such as yours are a great way to breath new life into this forum. Sadly I too do not know anyone in television (well, not in this country, at least, and I can't see the Czech Republic -- where I do have contacts -- being overly interested in the idea ...). So, over to the other members of the forum ...
** Phil.
I think Phils probably right. The notion that a BIR curry is currently not as it should be wouldnt go down too well with the multi-million industry that it is now. Also, the popular media tend to highlight the newer, up-market, modern curry cuisine, where many of the traditional dishes arent even on the menu. But, its a good idea and on a smaller scale could attract interest; local radio perhaps?
Rob
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I can only apologise for allowing myself to be drawn into this pointless (and seemingly endless) debate. I will endeavour to ensure that I do not allow it to happen again.
I think it may be the best approach! I read your original comments on the pastes you bought and they made sense to me.
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I can only apologise for allowing myself to be drawn into this pointless (and seemingly endless) debate. I will endeavour to ensure that I do not allow it to happen again.
I think it may be the best approach! I read your original comments on the pastes you bought and they made sense to me. The nearest thing to a troll in this thread is CA.
Then why not take that approach yourself then George?
Instead of, once again, sticking your nose in and stirring things up again with that final comment of yours. ::)
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stirring things up again with that final comment of yours. ::)
I've now deleted that comment, so please remove your post, or give clearance for me to remove it, together with this post.
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stirring things up again with that final comment of yours. ::)
I've now deleted that comment, so please remove your post, or give clearance for me to remove it, together with this post.
I hate to stir up a hornet's nest George but it was exactly this sort of behaviour from CA when he was a moderator (i.e. posting insults and then deleting them, or just deleting stuff that didn't comply with his personal interpretation of the forum rules) that rightly led to him being dropped as a mod.
It's disappointing to find that you seem to have taken up his mantle.
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Yawn ! ::)
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No it's alright George, I'm fine with my post, so it doesn't need removing or anything thanks.
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I haven't been online for a couple of weeks and this is appears to be the most popular thread that has been started in that time. Death of the thread more like. Such a pity. :(
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Anyone fancy a curry
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Maybe CRO should be re-hosted as "Children's Ranting Online" ;D
Come on guys GROW UP and give it a rest!!!
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No it's alright George, I'm fine with my post, so it doesn't need removing or anything thanks.
Shame on you, then. Why insist on retaining a quote within your message, which I've now deleted fro my original message. Indeed your whole message is now irrelevant, a bit like you, yourself. You no doubt prefer it to stand because you're little more than a trouble-maker.
Steady on old chap - that's a little bit below the belt!
Anyway, ChewyTikka has thrown us a juicy bone on a subject almost in tandem with this thread over here (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8790.msg78514#msg78514 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8790.msg78514#msg78514)) - Lets put some creative enthusiasm in to that one instead and call it a day here perhaps?
Cheers
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stirring things up again with that final comment of yours. ::)
I've now deleted that comment, so please remove your post, or give clearance for me to remove it, together with this post.
I hate to stir up a hornet's nest George but it was exactly this sort of behaviour from CA when he was a moderator (i.e. posting insults and then deleting them, or just deleting stuff that didn't comply with his personal interpretation of the forum rules) that rightly led to him being dropped as a mod.
It's disappointing to find that you seem to have taken up his mantle.
I'd have thought that withdrawing one's own rude comments, on refection, was desirable, in the interest of cooling things down. I don't think it's fair to compare anything I do, with CA's draconian editing, when huge chunks of other members' posts were cut, threads locked, and all the rest of it.
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Ive been a member of a fair few forums but this is the first where a moderator can get away with being rude to the sites members. Ive only been here a few weeks and have done a lot of reading going way back and unfortunately half of the threads end up in a shit fight. The amount of times times Ive read "and you wonder why new members dont hang around". Hmmm I dont wonder why after reading this garbage. It really is quite a bizarre site. Great content, but shit, some of you carry on like old, bitter, sour women! (no offence to the female members).
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No it's alright George, I'm fine with my post, so it doesn't need removing or anything thanks.
Shame on you, then. Why insist on retaining a quote within your message, which I've now deleted fro my original message. Indeed your whole message is now irrelevant, a bit like you, yourself. You no doubt prefer it to stand because you're little more than a trouble-maker.
Thanks George, very nice response from you once again, but I'm the one you think is a trouble-maker and should feel ashamed. ::)
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I can honestly say that I don't know where to buy an indian takeaway that still has "the taste"
There has been a sudden change of old places being taken over, or new places coming along
The whole flavour of curries has changed......
......I live in Nottingham
Does anyone know of anywhere that still does the old business?
Poor Haldi, all he wanted to know is where he can now buy a BIR curry, with "the taste", in Nottingham. Anyone?
Though I do believe that comments to do with why "the taste" may have "died" are relevant.
I'm sure poor Haldi would be devastated to see the majority of the responses in this thread.
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i asked the manager in midlands a while ago why his curries had changed (me being devastated that they had, there's only billycat's place on the wirral that i now know of).
his was as devastated as me in a way but not his bank account. the reply was very simple "its what the customers like". the change has brought more custom.
it's nice to dream of a new section coming onto the menu's "70's curry" but from what the manager said i can't see it happening.
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it's nice to dream of a new section coming onto the menu's "70's curry" but from what the manager said i can't see it happening.
I was speaking to Ali the other day and he was saying he is going to be cutting back on his menu's. Explaining it is necessary to keep up with demand as the kitchen struggles to deliver so many varied dishes. I can't help but feel it is also to do with expenditure in a dwindling economy.
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I was speaking to Ali the other day and he was saying he is going to be cutting back on his menu's. Explaining it is necessary to keep up with demand as the kitchen struggles to deliver so many varied dishes. I can't help but feel it is also to do with expenditure in a dwindling economy.
If by "cutting back on the menu" Ali means reducing the number of different dishes offered, I cannot help but feel that that may well be a step in the right direction. Do away with the umpteen "Chef's specials", "House specials" and all the other "specials" that cost at least 1.5 x as much a a normal curry, focus on the real kernels of BIR cuisine (Bhoona, Curry, Bombay, Ceylon, Dhansak, Korma, Madras, Patia, Vindaloo, Phal, ...) x (Chicken, Lamb, King prawn), add a small but well-chosen selection of Biryani and Tandoori dishes and he could be on a winner. IMHO, of course !
** Phil.
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I guess times are difficult. Noticed more and more restaurants doing the groupon thing as well to get people in the door. Bought one myself for a Bangladeshi restaurant here in Birmingham. You get a popadom and starter (which includes the Aubergine Delight) and a main course for two, for 12 quid. The voucher value is 32 quid so quite a discount. Not used it yet. The good lady has her eye on the chicken pasanda (contains numeg and red wine no less). Be interesting to see how it fairs to my offering the other week using 941bars recipe. I'm fairly confident the 941 special cant be matched.
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Well, maybe the chef is reacting to people like me:
Whenever I see a pretty small shop offering hundreds of dishes (even worse: different types of cuisine) I'm immediately turned off because I just know that you cannot possibly have such a vast array at a high quality standard. The chances of convenience foods (ie. frozen, but delivered cooked chicken bits) being involved becomes much too large for me. This potential "diversity" in food may, in fact, have led to the wide adoption of Patak's (and other) pastes. On the other hand, what do I know ?! ;)
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I'm sure Ali has the best of intentions as far as his menu is concerned, he is after all, a successful restauranteur. If I were in his position, I would rather sacrifice certain dishes than sacrifice the quality to maintain a wider choice. He does have a selection of Chef specialties, but not nowhere near the numbers that I have seen others do.