Topic: Death of the Taste

[Malc.]

The worst part is that this forum is joining the club Haldi.

Having been off the forum for some time I come back to see we're now overwhelmed with recipes that rely on Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing.

It's a bloody tragedy.

I recently questioned at which point did Patak's start becoming a staple in BIR's. It didn't get much feed back unfortunately, which is a shame. It would certainly help to work out what peoples tastes are truly striving for.
But like you SS, I am disappointed at the amount of recipes that contain Patak's. That is not to say they are bad recipes, just not what I am hoping to find or looking for.

I still think alot of the changes are due to the origination of the recipes and methods. Whether or not they have been handed down through the generations or not. When I order at the Shanaz, I often smell different aromas wafting up to the reception (restaurant is in the basement) and often ask 'what is that smell'? I get different answers for different smells but its either a steel balti pan, or karahi, or sizzler plate etc. but not as yet, one ingredient or another.

Given the amount of diluting of handed down recipes, techniques and the replacement of ingredients with commercially available pastes, it can only mean that finding that old style curry, is even harder to find these days.

[Cory Ander]

.....Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing...

I agree.  The (more recent) use of commercial pastes is an obvious difference between "old style" BIR curries and "new style" BIR curries.

However, I would even go so far as to question how prevalent the use of the following were in the "old style" BIR curries:

• Standardised "spice mix" or "mixed powder" (that now seems to go into most BIR curries)?
• Dried fenugreek leaves (which now seem to go into many, if not most, BIR curries)?
• Fresh coriander (which now seems to adorn most curries)?

it matters not one iota (IMHO) whether the recipe includes Patak's, Shan's or Uncle Tom Cobbley's products so long as it achieves the results we are seeking

That may be true, in principle, Phil.  But, if you're trying to replicate...oh, I dunno, your favourite roast potatoes like your grandmother used to make, and you insist on roasting them in Canola oil from a spray can (or olive oil, say), whereas she roasted them in lard, or beef dripping, then you are probably never going to replicate her roast potatoes, are you? You'd be barking up the wrong tree, I'd say...

[Salvador Dhali]

Ah... I do like the heady whiff of nostalgia. While it's often tinged by eclectic memories that have, over the years, acquired an enhanced level of idealisation, in the strange case of past vs present BIRs there is no doubt that things are not, indeed, as they used to be.

I suspect that there are many factors which have contributed to this, but one which has come about in recent times is the so-called 'curry crisis', which has received a fair bit of media attention and was brought to light by Julian in the C2G e-book. (For those that haven't heard about it, in a nutshell UK immigration policy changes have resulted in a shortage of Bangladeshi/Indian/Pakistani/ chefs, which means it's so much harder these days for restaurateurs to staff their kitchens with old-school talent.)

But whatever the reasons, it is the death of 'the taste' that continues to drive me ever onwards in the BIR quest. I've mentioned on here before that the Holy Grail for me has always been to reproduce the stunning and super-intense curries I enjoyed in Scotland in the early 80s (Glasgow and surrounding area).

To date, the closest I've managed to get to this intensity of flavour has been through the use of a good bunjarra (spicy onion paste). The one I make now combines the best of both worlds from the Ashoka bunjarra on here, and the oinion paste in Mick Crawford's (CBM's) book.

To those who have yet to try using bunjarra, I thoroughly recommend it. Okay, it's a bit of a faff standing over those onions for the best part of an hour while they slowly caramelise, but you can make enough in one go to fill an old Patak's jar, and as you only use a tablespoon or so in each curry it lasts a good while (keeps for a good few weeks in the fridge).

Do give it a go. And if you like it really intense, try to leave the curry overnight for eating the next day. As many of us have found, this often works wonders for our curries as our senses have had time to recover from the cooking process, but the intensity levels when you do this with a curry made with some bunjarra are off the scale...

[Ramirez]

Given the amount of diluting of handed down recipes, techniques and the replacement of ingredients with commercially available pastes, it can only mean that finding that old style curry, is even harder to find these days.

I'd go one step further and argue that it is extremely unlikely that it will ever be cracked. Surely if the old BIR taste has yet to be attained it never will be, unless through some stroke of luck.

The worst part is that this forum is joining the club Haldi.

Having been off the forum for some time I come back to see we're now overwhelmed with recipes that rely on Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing.

It's a bloody tragedy.

What recipes bring you closest to old BIR, SS?

I agree.  The (more recent) use of commercial pastes is an obvious difference between "old style" BIR curries and "new style" BIR curries.

Same question to you CA: what recipes bring you closest to old BIR - your own?

[Cory Ander]

Same question to you CA: what recipes bring you closest to old BIR - your own?

I think that all of the recipes that I have ever tried have been significantly lacking with regard to the taste and aroma and texture of the best "old style" BIR curries.  And it's nothing, whatsoever, to do with "nostalgia" (in my opinion).

[Cory Ander]

I can replicate and better most modern Chicken Madras's

Please would you point me to the madras recipe of yours (and any supplementary recipes required to make it) that you consider to be your best, I would be very interested in trying it.

Thanks,

[Peripatetic Phil]

it matters not one iota (IMHO) whether the recipe includes Patak's, Shan's or Uncle Tom Cobbley's products so long as it achieves the results we are seeking

That may be true, in principle, Phil.  But, if you're trying to replicate...oh, I dunno, your favourite roast potatoes like your grandmother used to make, and you insist on roasting them in Canola oil from a spray can (or olive oil, say), whereas she roasted them in lard, or beef dripping, then you are probably never going to replicate her roast potatoes, are you? You'd be barking up the wrong tree, I'd say...

I completely agree.  But let us suppose that Mr Patak were to produce a paste consisting primarily of beef dripping with added dried Coleman's mustard, salt and (perhaps) a little black pepper; if those were the ingredients that my long-dead grandmother had used (albeit separately, and not from a modern convenience jar), then I would be inclined to suspect I would get pretty d@mned close by using Mr Patak's modern convenience version.  Would you not agree ?

** Phil.

[Peripatetic Phil]

I can replicate and better most modern Chicken Madras's

Please would you point me to the madras recipe of yours (and any supplementary recipes required to make it) that you consider to be your best, I would be very interested in trying it.  Thanks

By all means : I am fairly sure it will already be on the forum, but I will need to do a search and then cook it at least once more to be sure that I haven't further refined it since I went to press.

** Phil.

[SteveAUS]

To date, the closest I've managed to get to this intensity of flavour has been through the use of a good bunjarra (spicy onion paste). The one I make now combines the best of both worlds from the Ashoka bunjarra on here, and the oinion paste in Mick Crawford's (CBM's) book.

Hi SD - was/is this used instead of the base gravy?
Cheers
Steve

[loveitspicy]

in the strange case of past vs present BIRs there is no doubt that things are not, indeed, as they used to be.

I suspect that there are many factors which have contributed to this, but one which has come about in recent times is the so-called 'curry crisis', which has received a fair bit of media attention and was brought to light by Julian in the C2G e-book. (For those that haven't heard about it, in a nutshell UK immigration policy changes have resulted in a shortage of Bangladeshi/Indian/Pakistani/ chefs, which means it's so much harder these days for restaurateurs to staff their kitchens with old-school talent.)
d bunjarra (spicy onion paste). The one I make now combines the best of both worlds from the Ashoka bunjarra on here, and the oinion paste in Mick Crawford's (CBM's) book.

SD this is not the only factor - a MAJOR factor is that the new generation DO NOT want to stand in a kitchen they are more high tech and would like more out of life - enjoying themselves

So yes the old school chef's are not passing the information on anymore - I see an opening for many none Asian chefs if they would like to take it on.

Also all the pastes on the market are there for convenience - which does help the cook/chef who has never made a paste or mixed spices in his life - very easy to shovel in a spoon out of a jar........... shame really

best, Rich

best, Rich