Topic: Death of the Taste

[Cory Ander]

But let us suppose that Mr Patak were to produce a paste consisting primarily of beef dripping with added dried Coleman's mustard, salt and (perhaps) a little black pepper; if those were the ingredients that my long-dead grandmother had used (albeit separately, and not from a modern convenience jar), then I would be inclined to suspect I would get pretty d@mned close by using Mr Patak's modern convenience version.  Would you not agree ?

Let us suppose, instead, that Patak take spices (let's give them the benefit of the doubt here) and reconstituted ingredients and then add antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, salt, bulking agents, etc, (because that, in fact, is what Patak actually do).....

...I very much doubt that your long-dead grandmother did it that way at all.

[beachbum]

I've only been a slave to the Obsession for a few months now and still learning as I go. I'd never heard of Bunjarra onion paste till I read this thread, so I did a Google Search and Cory Ander's recipe turned up straight away for PanPot's Ashoka Onion Paste. 

As I read it, it was immediately obvious that this is basically what the Australian Indian Restaurant base "gravies" consist of. The gravies are adjusted with ingredients such as coconut, almond, vinegar etc to make a number of gravies in common use for the different "families" of curries such as butter chicken, vindaloo etc etc.

They are heavily caramelised and are pastes, although called "gravies". So I guess a curry made with BIR ingredients then enhanced with a Bunjarra would maybe fall half way between the two styles?

I'll give it a go - I often use red onions even in my BIR base, for the sweetness. Interesting that this is mentioned as an old school paste that was in use in BIR restaurants, and could explain why it became the basis of AIR curries as the first wave of restaurateurs came here from the UK rather than from the Subcontinent itself, courtesy of their acquiring UK citizenship then emigrating here.

[Salvador Dhali]

To date, the closest I've managed to get to this intensity of flavour has been through the use of a good bunjarra (spicy onion paste). The one I make now combines the best of both worlds from the Ashoka bunjarra on here, and the oinion paste in Mick Crawford's (CBM's) book.

Hi SD - was/is this used instead of the base gravy?
Cheers
Steve

Hi Steve

A bunjarra or onion paste is simply added to a curry cooked in the usual way (using base gravy, etc). So, if you were making, say, a Madras, you would simply add a tablespoon or so of bunjarra half-way through or towards the end (though excactly when it goes in isn't super critical).

[SteveAUS]

Thats why I asked BB. I thought the same. Thanks for the clarification SD.
Cheers
Steve

Edit: So it has me thinking. Isnt frying the onions with other ingredients, i.e. garlic, ginger, spices etc the traditional style of Indian cooking? Thats how ive been cooking for the past 20 years. When did base gravies start being used?

[Peripatetic Phil]

Let us suppose, instead, that Patak take spices (let's give them the benefit of the doubt here) and reconstituted ingredients and then add antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, salt, bulking agents, etc, (because that, in fact, is what Patak actually do).....  ...I very much doubt that your long-dead grandmother did it that way at all.

But that is an entirely different question, surely : we are not trying to re-create the methodology of our grandmothers (or of the BIR chefs of the 1970s), we are trying to re-create the results they achieved.  And therefore, so long as the antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators,  bulking agents, etc., do not affect the flavour, their presence or absence makes no difference.  Whether these additives /do/ affect the flavour is another matter entirely; my point was solely that the means (and ingredients) by which we achieve the flavours we are seeking is not the issue; it is the results that matter, not the methodology and ingredients.  Would you not agree ?

** Phil.

[Malc.]

my point was solely that the means (and ingredients) by which we achieve the flavours we are seeking is not key; it is the results that matter, not the methodology and ingredients.  Would you not agree ?

Sorry Phil, i'd have to disagree with that statement. Without the ingredients and methodology, the results will never be right, no matter how close you you may feel you get.

[Salvador Dhali]

Edit: So it has me thinking. Isnt frying the onions with other ingredients, i.e. garlic, ginger, spices etc the traditional style of Indian cooking? Thats how ive been cooking for the past 20 years. When did base gravies start being used?

It is indeed - but not too many styles of traditional Indian cookery require the onions to be caramelised so thoroughly over such a long period. The idea of the concentrated bunjarra paste is to add an extra layer of flavour and intensity - it's an adjunct, rather than a main ingredient. (Indeed, if you make it properly, while it tastes fantastic, you wouldn't want to eat too much of it on its own.)

As to when base gravies started to be used, it's hard to put a date on it, but the popular consensus is that it was back when the first wave of Indian (well, mainly Bangladeshi) restaurants began opening in the UK in the 60s/70s.

[Peripatetic Phil]

Sorry Phil, i'd have to disagree with that statement. Without the ingredients and methodology, the results will never be right, no matter how close you you may feel you get.

But isn't that begging the question, Malc ?  It is a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold, but surely it is just that : a viewpoint, rather than a proven fact.  Let me put it another way : if someone were to serve you a curry in a blind tasting, and you were to judge it not only as good as any curry you had ever eaten but (to the best of your recollection) identical in every way to the curries you ate back in the '70s, and the chef were then to reveal that he prepared it in a microwave oven using a Patak's concentrated curry sauce, would you then feel forced to re-assess your analysis of the meal and say "Well, perhaps I overstated my feelings : I don't really think it is similar to the curries of the '70s, and I have almost certainly eaten better" or would you re-assess what I will call your prejudices (I don't use the term perjoratively, as I am sure you know) and say "Wow, that is /incredible/ : I shall have to get hold of some of that sauce immediately and try it for myself" ?

** Phil.

[Cory Ander]

so long as the antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators,  bulking agents, etc., do not affect the flavour, their presence or absence makes no difference.

I think you're too busy contemplating your navel, Phil.

It is definitely not the case, is it, Phil?  Patak pastes (because of the above additions) are acidic, tart and impart a distinctive taste to anything they are added to.

Haldi raised the question as to where all the decent BIRs have gone.

Secret Santa replied that, in his opinion, the more prevalent use of Patak pastes (and such like) by BIRs is probably one good reason (I'm sure there are others too) why today's BIRs are, apparently, inferior to those of the 70s and 80s.

I agreed with him.  And still do.  For the reasons cited.

[Malc.]

It is a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold, but surely it is just that : a viewpoint, rather than a proven fact.  Let me put it another way : if someone were to serve you a curry in a blind tasting, and you were to judge it not only as good as any curry you had ever eaten but (to the best of your recollection) identical in every way to the curries you ate back in the '70s, and the chef were then to reveal that he prepared it in a microwave oven using a Patak's concentrated curry sauce, would you then feel forced to re-assess

All I can say is that I feel the proof is in the pudding, or rather this topic and the many others that can be found on this forum searching for 'the taste' or 'the smell' etc. Of course this is just my view point but although I can not prove it, (as I do not have the ingredients and methodology of the '70s & '80s BIR) I find it hard to believe that a jar of paste could deliver the same result.

That said, if in your scenario I had concluded the said microwaved paste incorporated curry as being as good and identical as a '70 & '80s BIR, I would be forced to re-assess. But more so to re-consider whether or not Patak's had actually influenced the '70s & '80s BIR.