Topic: Death of the Taste

[Peripatetic Phil]

I think you're too busy contemplating your navel, Phil.

What you think of as contemplating one's navel, I think of as freeing one's mind.  If Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton and Halley had not freed their minds, we would still believe in the terracentric universe of Ptolemy [1]. Is it not wiser to accept that the judicious use of some Patak's products /may/ have positive benefits in our efforts to re-create the traditional flavours of BIR cuisine rather than simply rejecting them as a nasty modern invention and (in the end) perhaps end up re-inventing the wheel ?

I am no advocate of Patak's products (although their Kashmiri masala is now the basis of my first-stage chicken preparation) but nor am I willing to rule them out entirely; rather, I prefer to retain an open mind and to judge them on the effect(s) they achieve and the flavours(s) they impart, and not on the basis of any preconceptions that I or others may harbour.

** Phil.
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[1]

Challenging long-held beliefs is a daunting enterprise, but the effort can literally change the world. Although Copernicus is believed to have developed his revolutionary theory placing the sun, not the earth, at the center of the universe many years before his death, he anticipated the controversy it would evoke and published it from his deathbed. When Galileo sought to prove Copernicus's theory, he was brought before the Inquisition and threatened with torture. A heliocentric world raised too many uncomfortable questions. It rattled the status quo. But the discovery of a new tool, in this case the telescope, shed light on the problem and forever changed the way we view our place in the universe.

[Salvador Dhali]

I've kept out of the Patak's sauce debate because, when I feel the need to use a commercial paste, I prefer to use Laziza pastes, but this morning I went to my local asian wholesale shop (which supplies all the restaurants around here), and had a chat with the owner.

He also owns five restaurants, and freely admitted that they use Patak's pastes - but only in the preparation of tandoori/tikka dishes. This was backed up by the presence of catering size jars of Kashmiri, Tandoori and Tikka pastes on the shelves (all of which I've noticed whenever I've been into BIR kitchens).

He assured me that all the main dish curries were made the standard way with base gravy and ground spices, and having eaten in his restauraunts I have no reason to doubt him.

I asked him why Patak's pastes were used for tandoori/tikka dishes, and he said it was simply down to convenience and, given the huge quanities of tandoori / tikka marinades made each day in his restaurants, it was also about consistency.

He couldn't understand what the fuss was all about. "It has been this way for many years", he said, adding that tandoori and tikka dishes remain amongst the most popular on his restaurants' menus. "Customers like them. Why should I change something that works?"

My take on this whole 'death of the taste' is that, as in all types of cooking and cuisine, it is the skill of the chef that creates and determines the taste and quality of the dishes. If your local restaurant/takeaway isn't delivering the taste, look to the chef and his methods.

I know of two restaurants round my way that recently saw business plummet after their chefs were poached. The food went from stunning to bland literally overnight.

Of the five restaurants owned by the above mentioned wholesaler, I only bother with a couple of them. Why? because those have the best chefs.

Anyway, that's my take on it. It's not anything to do with pastes, but chefs. Always has been, and always will be...

[chewytikka]

I Agree
I've explained the very same, SD, many times, but its like pi--ing against the wind.

Can anybody actually point me in the right direction for all these overwhelming CURRY recipes that rely on Pataks pastes please.
Apart from curries that need Red Masala or my Jhal Mix or Balti I haven't noticed many on here.

If you have enjoyed BIR Tandoori, Tikka and Kebabs over the past 30 years, you've been enjoying Pataks flavours,  its that simple.

cheers Chewy

[Malc.]

Hi Chewy,


I have a TA near me (a really bad one at that) that admitted to using Patak's in most of his 'curry' dishes as well as his tandoori and tikka. I tell you, the tikka masala is by far the worse tikka masla I have ever eaten. What really amazes me is how the place is still trading. He obviously has a customer base that supports his business, but what demographic they are is anyone's guess.


As for Patak's in tikka for the last 30 years, perhaps you could add to the topic I posted recently. But I can only repeat the comments made by the owner of the IG recently when he said that they don't use Patak's in their tikka. Of course, I haven't been able to get back for a another demo on anything since the bhaji dem, but I will endeavour to ask for one on tikka and tandoori marinades.

[Secret Santa]

Is it not wiser to accept that the judicious use of some Patak's products /may/ have positive benefits in our efforts to re-create the traditional flavours of BIR cuisine rather than simply rejecting them as a nasty modern invention and (in the end) perhaps end up re-inventing the wheel ?

Phil, Patak's pastes are a nasty modern(ish) invention which have(in my opinion) played a major part in killing the authentic BIR taste. They add a nasty tart flavour to curries, which I abhor and, in BIR terms at least, I wish they and their ilk had never been invented.

To suggest that it might be wise to accept their use in reproducing traditional BIR cuisine is insane.

[Cory Ander]

Can anybody actually point me in the right direction for all these overwhelming CURRY recipes that rely on Pataks pastes please.
Apart from curries that need Red Masala or my Jhal Mix or Balti I haven't noticed many on here

I'm sorry CT but, besides the ones you've cited, there is much talk (including by yourself) of using "Naga" this and "Naga" that "paste/chutney/relish", etc.  They were (also) not available to BIRs in the "old" days (i.e. prior to the 90s or 80s...or...to be reasonable and factual...before the 2000s!)!

If you have enjoyed BIR Tandoori, Tikka and Kebabs over the past 30 years, you've been enjoying Pataks flavours,  its that simple.

But CT, we (at least some of us) are talking about BIR curries BEFORE 1980 (and I'd say you really mean to say, as far as the Patak influence goes, before about the 1990s)

Perhaps the truth of it is is that is doesn't much matter to most forum members nowadays....

And, let's be honest, you recently posted about a naan..with garlic...and ROSEMARY!  (whatever rocks your boat, I suppose, but, as far as I'm concerned, it sure as hell aint "old school" BIR!)

[Unclebuck]

how do we know the use of pataks in the BIR trade is a modern thing? just a quick looky on there site there pastes first got into supermarkets in 1978

not that i really give one.

[vinders]

Dear all,

I?m a newbie on the site so first of all a big hello and an equally big thanks for the amazing site. I?ve been dabbling in trying to replicate BIR curries for around 16 years so I?m very excited about finding this site and can see this is going to be addictive!

As a historian and someone who has been eating BIR curries from themed 1980s I?ve been following the thread with interest. Oral history has demonstrated that memory can be deceiving when it comes to people?s sense of taste confirming the old clich? ?things don?t taste as good as they used to be?. However, that doesn?t mean to say that this necessarily applies to everything. In this case, I also remember BIR curries from circa 1986 as very different to today?s fare. In particular, the vindaloos used to have a slightly thinner but manifestly darker sauce with a bit of a more smokey flavour (at least in my memory).

I can see that some of the members have been able to access restaurant and T-A kitchens and received some invaluable advice. But I guess we?re talking about a different generation of chefs. Given the traditional secrecy of chef disseminating their knowledge I wonder exactly how much of the old techniques have been passed down?

Apologies if this doesn?t exactly relate to Patak?s sauces, but this is a fascinating thread. At the end of the day perhaps the answer lies in a mixture of the changing nature of cooking as well as the effect of time on our memories? 

[Peripatetic Phil]

Phil, Patak's pastes are a nasty modern(ish) invention

Patak's was founded in the 1950s, I seem to recall; in terms of BIR, this is more or less the beginning.

which have(in my opinion) played a major part in killing the authentic BIR taste.

You may well be right : I am not disputing this.

They add a nasty tart flavour to curries, which I abhor

Again, used to excess, or as the only spicing, I agree; but used judiciously, to augment other flavours ?  I am  not so sure.

and, in BIR terms at least, I wish they and their ilk had never been invented.

If you (and many others) are right, and they are indeed responsible for the decline in standards, then I would agree; all I am arguing is that we should keep an open mind, and until we can (with reasonable certainty) prove that they are responsible, then I would not want to rule them out of our arsenal completely.  As I remarked earlier, I really regard Patak's Kashmiri Masala as a godsend, and wish I had discovered it earlier.  I still have to invest in my catering size Madras Tikka Paste, but I may well do so.

To suggest that it might be wise to accept their use in reproducing traditional BIR cuisine is insane.

If they can achieve the effect, then I am willing to accept them; if they cannot, they can go in the bin.

But one last comment : my spice cupboards and refrigerator now have far more Patak's products in them than they did when I started on my BIR quest : with KD, there were no Patak's products at all (apart from their lime pickle); but after joining this forum, and following various recipes from here, my stock of Patak's products has grown and grown ...

** Phil.

[Cory Ander]

how do we know the use of pataks in the BIR trade is a modern thing? just a quick looky on there site there pastes first got into supermarkets in 1978

UB, I doubt Patak pastes were commonly used by BIRs before about the 1990s (despite what the Patak website might claim.....I am happy to be proven wrong).

Nevertheless, the debate here is why has the quality of BIR curries declined in "recent" years?

It has been suggested that BIRs may, more and more, be using commercial pastes (such as Patak; I have rarely seen other brands mentioned; why, I don't know, because several seem to be of a better quality...i.e. fewer additives).  And that this has led to a demise in the quality of BIR curries.

not that i really give one

If you care about the quality of BIR curries, then, surely you WOULD "really give one! 

Perhaps, if you agree that the quality of BIR curries has declined, you can suggest other possible reasons?  If you disagree, then why don't you say so?

Otherwise, why the f*ck would you be here or even bother to comment?!  :-X