Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: ELW on October 17, 2011, 09:23 PM
-
Hi all, I'm new here & after following threads from years back until present on cr0, it looked like members investigations looked promising only for after trials by other members to be found lacking 'something'. I noticed the number of new threads & posts has dwindled after what seemed like a time of new ideas & information coming to light. I have made a few bases since starting(KD1 & some from another site), with differing results. I liked the KD1 base, but found myself doubling spice amounts due to the lack in the base. This in turn asked questions of my ability to cook the spices out correctly, to remove the rawness & not to burn them. I followed Panpots Ashoka threads with real interest, as I know the Ashoka well & it was the 1st time I had read any reports from a real bir kitchen, only for others to report back saying it wasnt what they were looking for(bunjara G&G paste)My question I suppose is, has anyone perfected their cooking techniques/ recipies/base combinations / missing ingredients to a level where they are looking no further? Im going to try CA's base & recipies next, as they have great reviews from members & he has obviously put a huge amount of effort into this.
I had long suspected flavour enhancers in bir, but apparently this is not the case, apart from maybe pastes & spice mixes? If there is a general consensus on any of the points below, I would appreciate any views & advice. Trying to get up to speed
* use of old oil - (haldi's post from a while back sits well with me the slight burnt underlying taste)
* adding of onion paste -either bunjara or the boiled one
* use of msg or other flavour enhancers
* Cooking technique of the spices
* Anyone know if jaggery is used?
Thanks in advance
phew!!
-
Good post.
Although my curry taste good but are lacking that special taste, from talking to my favourite local restaurant they say it takes skill and timing (they wont give me training :(), they have though gave me there base sauce and mix spice to try BUT i cannot achieve the same results (there base and mix is no differant from good ones on this site), however i do cook on electric hob and now believe this is where iam going wrong, lots of heat and stirring to bring out that flavour, maybe i need to by that 7kw burner.
Fishy
-
This thread might be of interest and use to you ELW: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4069.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4069.0) (if you haven't already seen it?)
-
It depends whether you are looking for current BIR taste or 1960's taste. I have seen (and cooked in) some BIR kitchens and I can honestly say that there was no used oil used, no bunjarra, no MSG and no jaggery. It's all in the magic of the technique. Even the base sauce makes little difference to the finished product, it is there mainly as a bulking ingredient. In the 60's they would stick chicken carcasses in the base pot to make the base a lot more flavoursome. They may well have recycled used oil too but both practices are more frowned upon now. Especially as they used to make vegetarian curries with the chicken stock base!
If you ever get a chance to look in a kitchen (some are open plan these days) watch the first 20 seconds, that's when the magic happens. After that its just a case of adding the base and reducing down.
-
I'v been suffering from information overload at the moment...its really easy to get sidetracked on a bir forum when your lookin for the golden ticket!
Im gettin my sea legs now though! Its now more a case of me leaving things out rather than adding, what may be only chefs touches, rather than critical components.
Im goin to follow ca's base & recipies(once i clear the freezer of Asda Whoops!10p's)& concentrate on my cooking technique / timings only, which are crucial in most any cooking(seafood)...that initial 20 seconds, where the spices are cooked out correctly before adding liquid, could very easily be where im falling short...i have a tendency like most people to to sometimes overcook things
Chriswg - the first time I was in a bir was late 80's, & if i remember right,even that tasted different, it was a great place in Glasgow now closed
regarding the use of old oil, I can see in theory how this would work, giving a uniform background taste - regardless of region or country, but i think the risk to health from this alone would have been made apparent-it may be worth more now for biodiesel- To think i had been enjoying the flavour of near rancid oil for 25 years would be a blow - so im ruling it out for the moment
I recently tried a bir takeaway from a place i hadnt tried before, its been there for years, & found that the onion & peppers in my dish had clearly been precooked in something sweet & smokey and quite unusual-they were soft but not browned.not like sugar at all & after checking the price of jaggery, I found it is really cheap and a possibility??
CA -thanks for that appreciate your efforts - 'secret'onion paste, carmelised onion paste(banjara) & homemade spiced oil are not a requirement?
All I know is that i don't know
ELW
P.S - All being well, these posts should reduce in size in time & maybe even posted in the right section :)
-
The green pepper and onion chunks are gently pre-fried in g/g paste and vegetable ghee around here. Different chefs might throw in different things to make their mark on a dish. They may have just added in some smoked paprika which would combine with the sweetness of the onions to give you the taste you discovered.
Hope this helps.
-
ELW,
nice post.
in terms of looking no further - BIR is tantalising in that there is always still something you would like to improve on. i relate it to fell walking - eventually you get to the sea.
my view on the questions: old oil - no, onion paste - yes, msg/others - no, cooking technique - yes (there's a few existing post shout if stuck), jaggery - no.
best wishes
-
thanks JerryM, its goin to be a process of elimination for me to get what im looking for, I hope to return with some answers rather than questions! I always thought if the bir taste wasn't down to a missing ingredient or flavour enhancement, then the spices & spice mixes, when cooked properly, create almost a single flavour/taste/smell which can only created during the cooking. I find that in standard bir dishes, almost all trace of the spice mixes has gone & changed to 'the taste', except where the dish requires more to unbalance it ie extra chilli in madras/vindaloo.
last week I made a korma & chasni from the 'takeaway secrets' to use up some base i had left, after adding mint sauce to the chasni, which was very high in vinegar, I realised I never had enough base left, so the mint overpowered it. Taste wise they were microwave meal standard at best...thing is for the first time there was a great aroma- a restaurant smell, which everyone who came in asked about..so Ill keep at it.
Regards
ELW
-
I am not convinced that anyone at cr0 has really replicated the true bir taste. I would like to think one or 2 of us have managed to create the illusive taste, but sadly i doubt this. I know many of us can beat 3 out of 5 local bir restaurants, ( i know i can), but i cannot match 5 out of 5 local bir restaurants. This site has enough info to create curries good enough to stop you ordering takeways. But some real bir chefs have 20 years experience in there trade and know a few tricks ! To answer your question, I would say no one here knows the real benchmarks in creating the bir taste. The ashoka lamb korai bhuna is close enough to satisfy me though. I make that most weeks and enjoy it alot. Mastering this recipe takes about 5 or 6 attempts. This will teach you most of the benchmarks such as base consistency, how long to fry garlic, how long to evaporate the base for, and how much tarka to add etc.
-
thats exactly the impression I got Derek Dansak when I started digging on cr0 - I wasnt sure if members had solved it or given up trying..it seems to have gone a bit quiet. When I saw Panpots Ashoka experience, i thought its would be game over for a lot of people..especially in Scotland. Have you tested a real Ashoka alongside your own? The garlic & ginger paste is definitely Ashoka, you can smell it as you walk in the door
I'll give their stuff a go sometime in the near future
One of my recent takeaway meals tasted like it had beeen sitting on top of a tandoor or coals???(plain chicken not tikka)it was great
ELW
-
Hi ELW,
The forum does go quiet from time to time then usually picks up again.
I've been trying to do BIR curries for 2.5 years now, usually 2 per week and in that time I've tried about 8 base recipes, 5 or 6 spice mixes and countless recipes.
I'm pretty happy with my results as are the other people I give my efforts to. I can cook nicer curries than a couple of BIRs around here and feel I'm still at the 90% mark.
One thing is missing for me that my fav TA beats me on: A sweet tangy morish flavour to the oil in the curry and I don't mean suggary sweet. It is more spicy sweet if that makes any sense.
I'm beginning to think it may come from the use of whole spices in the base but I don't know which spices and what quantities. That idea came from making the ABC balti base which uses whole spices in a spice ball but for me the spices and mixes were wrong. It did have potential though and the whole spices made their way into the oil in the finished curries.
I could be completely wrong however. :-\ Any other ideas for the sweet tangy taste I'm looking for?
Cheers,
Paul
-
I would like to suggest that this post doesn't veer into a search for the holy grail - the fact that some members can beat 3 out of 5 BI Rs is actually testament to this site and their cooking. If we said we could beat 3 out of 5 French restaurants would that be considered an achievement.
For the last year I've been regularly knocking out 3 to 4 curries, 3 to 5 times per week. My curries have never tasted better and I reminded of Bruce Edward's last post - this site has everything you need - crack on and get cooking!
I really don't think it's about reclaimed oil, jaggery, or msg, I think it's about sticking with a decent base, spice mix, set of recipes and bashing on. There's a lot of these on this site and I really don't think one will draw you more to an "ellusive" taste than any other. The more you cook the better your results will be.
-
I would like to suggest that this post doesn't veer into a search for the holy grail - the fact that some members can beat 3 out of 5 BI Rs is actually testament to this site and their cooking. If we said we could beat 3 out of 5 French restaurants would that be considered an achievement.
For the last year I've been regularly knocking out 3 to 4 curries, 3 to 5 times per week. My curries have never tasted better and I reminded of Bruce Edward's last post - this site has everything you need - crack on and get cooking!
I really don't think it's about reclaimed oil, jaggery, or msg, I think it's about sticking with a decent base, spice mix, set of recipes and bashing on. There's a lot of these on this site and I really don't think one will draw you more to an "ellusive" taste than any other. The more you cook the better your results will be.
I think you're right Stephen. We "chefs" are always going to be our own worst enemies. Will we ever be satisfied with every dish we cook - no. But we all know the elation when we nail a dish ;D. At the end of the day, we're self taught and do it as a hobby, for the love of the taste and the challenge to produce BIR dishes every time the pan goes on the stove. In light of this 3 out of 5 aint that bad but it won't stop us trying to improve. And that is what this is all about and what keeps a forum like this alive. Long live CR0 8)
-
Hi Stephen, no this post was just from a new member lookin for an update hopefully from the same people who's posts i had read from 06 till now. Members trials, results & photographs on here were laying the building blocks of bir @ home better than any publication for me, but every now and then a post like the reclaimed oil idea (from deep fat frying) would appear, which was a potential brick wall for me. At the moment I can produce really tasty curries, but not with the can't leave it alone taste, which Im workin on!
cant cook till the fridge/freezer is clear, thats why im asking so much this week
@Curryhell - yeah the juice is worth the squeeze
Regards
ELW
-
I could be completely wrong however. :-\ Any other ideas for the sweet tangy taste I'm looking for?
This could be the conversion of some of the onion compounds into natural sugars through the high heat lapping up the side of the BIR's pan and effectively reducing and frying a small amount of the base sauce at a higher temp than the rest of the sauce gets as it bubbles away in the centre of the pan. A few months ago I was experimenting with recreating this at home by frying 1 or 2 ladles of base sauce in a separate pan until it reduces to a stage where it is a thick paste and sizzling in the oil rather than bubbling and boiling. At a certain stage the colour starts to darken and if tasted you will find a rich, sweet almost caramel flavour which is very moreish and delicious. Combine this paste back into your curry towards the end of the cooking and the effect on overall flavour is amazing.
The downside is the length of time is takes to carry out the whole procedure, but for me cooking on an electric hob at home it's the closest I can get to the gas fired BIR flavour.
-
ELW,
for sure it's best to ask when in need - there is real expertice on the site.
the only other advice i can offer is to look at BIR as a jigsaw. this is how i approached it. i firmly believe everything that is needed is on this site. the only way to work out what's right is to try it and accept that you will have failures yet these provide invaluable learning. someone mentioned earlier of 20yrs of experience and i must admit i'm starting to agree - it's a vast art that demands practise along with the theory.
every piece of the jigsaw needs to be in place for the magic to work though.
the only thing i feel lacking on the site is more decent recipes. my current quest is recipe refinement but it's a slow process of trial and error.
we all seem to have different "regional" preferences which muddies the water further.
it's good fun even though the effort needed for a curry night is huge.
-
the only thing i feel lacking on the site is more decent recipes. my current quest is recipe refinement but it's a slow process of trial and error.
"More" in the sense of a wider range of dishes, Jerry, or "more" in the sense of a greater breadth of choice of recipe for the dishes that are already featured here ?
** Phil.
-
Hello paul, phil jerry and all the other old familier peeps at the cro scene. Good to have you on board still ! Where did all the others disappear to ???
Things have been quiet on cr0 for a while, as paul so rightly pointed out. Its great some of the old members are still around though. Its encouranging to know i am not alone on the quest. Its also good to see a few new names as well , nice one! I must admit since moving house my time to try new curries has been severely disrupted. I did have a couple of interesting outcomes worthy of posting. I think i will begin a new thread for this called " Breakthroughs of 2011"
Paul i did get a step closer to the savoury moorish taste you mentioned, but i will post that on the new thread.
-
Hi DD,
I'm looking forward to your posts. The cr0 member ifindforu recently posted a tantalising threat to "spill the beans" over what he has witnessed in his TA. I'm still waiting to hear about that one.
Cheers
Paul
-
Hi paul, i have a good feeling that in the next year or 2 we will all break through to the next level. I reckon we will discover something on our own (amongst cro members) , someone at cr0 will make a new leap of faith , and we will truly reach the next level. I think we have all become stuck at a certain point for 2 long. However the laws of endless experimentation would predict a breakthrough at some point. I will post my findings later when i get time ( i am at work at the mo, so little time to post) Its not ground breaking but i felt it was very interesting. it might point the way forward
-
the frustrating thing for me is the simplicity of of the ingredients / equipment(tandoor excluded)/ & lazy cooking method which the chefs seem to be able to apply to these dishes, to create an appealing taste, honed particularly to western palates. They are after ll true entrepreneu
rs
-
I would like to suggest that this post doesn't veer into a search for the holy grail - the fact that some members can beat 3 out of 5 BI Rs is actually testament to this site and their cooking. If we said we could beat 3 out of 5 French restaurants would that be considered an achievement.
For the last year I've been regularly knocking out 3 to 4 curries, 3 to 5 times per week. My curries have never tasted better and I reminded of Bruce Edward's last post - this site has everything you need - crack on and get cooking!
I really don't think it's about reclaimed oil, jaggery, or msg, I think it's about sticking with a decent base, spice mix, set of recipes and bashing on. There's a lot of these on this site and I really don't think one will draw you more to an "ellusive" taste than any other. The more you cook the better your results will be.
Just read this again Stephen - WELL SAID!
-
I would like to suggest that this post doesn't veer into a search for the holy grail - the fact that some members can beat 3 out of 5 BI Rs is actually testament to this site and their cooking. If we said we could beat 3 out of 5 French restaurants would that be considered an achievement.
I disagree. Your comment confirms why I sometimes see things differently to other people on this forum. By my reckoning, there's fewer than 2 out of 5 BIRs where I rate the food these days. I'm sure the ratio was higher in the 1980s and most of the 90s. So, that means at least 3 out of 5 BIRs serve food which is mediocre and relatively tasteless. How can it be an achievement to "beat 3 out of 5 BIRs" when the standard is so low?
Yes, it would certainly be impressive to beat 3 out of 5 French restaurants because the standard is probably much higher.
-
I disagree. Your comment confirms why I sometimes see things differently to other people on this forum. By my reckoning, there's fewer than 2 out of 5 BIRs where I rate the food these days. I'm sure the ratio was higher in the 1980s and most of the 90s. So, that means at least 3 out of 5 BIRs serve food which is mediocre and relatively tasteless. How can it be an achievement to "beat 3 out of 5 BIRs" when the standard is so low?
Yes, it would certainly be impressive to beat 3 out of 5 French restaurants because the standard is probably much higher.
I think that George has a fair point, but let me put it to him from the opposite perspective : if we can produce food /better than/ three out of five BIRs, and could at least /equal/ the other two, then that would be an achievement, would it not ? I am not saying that this is necessarily the case, but I am saying that we should not be too dismissive.
** Phil.
-
I think that George has a fair point, but let me put it to him from the opposite perspective : if we can produce food /better than/ three out of five BIRs, and could at least /equal/ the other two, then that would be an achievement, would it not ? I am not saying that this is necessarily the case, but I am saying that we should not be too dismissive.
Thank you for your partial support!
To keep things simple, let's simplify the criteria to say "equal to, or better." I don't know about you but, whilst I reckon I can cook a fair few dishes to equal the 3 out 5 mediocre places, I still can't cook anything (apart from Blade's chicken tikka perhaps) which equals, let alone betters, the other 2 out of 5 places.
If anyone reckons they can, then why were so few people prepared to lay their cards on the table and invite a selection of other members round to dinner, when I suggested a 'Come Dine' idea? In my opinion, it would still help establish the true standard of the forum, when all is said and done after many years "R&D" and endless debate, since the forum started.
-
crack on and get cooking!...The more you cook the better your results will be.
Sounds to me a bit like a football coach telling their players to just "get out there and play! The more you play the better you will get!" without providing any guidance or direction. I suspect they wouldn't hold their job too long! :P
Surely a little (lot) more guidance is in order? :-\
-
Allways interesting to read the latest comments but it does seem we have got to a level and have run out of new idea's :( What keeps me going though was standing at our favourite T/A's Chef's side watching him make my Chicken Madras ,so simple :-
Veg Oil in Pan (some Ghee melted into the Oil)
Tip of Chef's spoon dipped into dried Methi leaves and stirred into pan.
Garlic/Ginger Puree added ( at least 2 heaped tsp ) and fried.
Tom Puree added and stirred in.
A good heaped tbl spoon of 'Chef's Spice Massala' (looked a coarse texture and with the colour of Garam Masala )
Chili Powder (cant remember how much)
A Chef's spoon of Base followed by Pre-Cooked Chicken some more Base,Salt,and a good pinch of fresh Coriander.
Simmered for a few Minutes then poured into a T/A container and garnished with fresh Coriander.
Job Done.
No High heat,No Spiced Oil (other than Ghee melted in),No 'special' additives unless it was in the Spice Mix :-\
It tasted lovely and I just can't get close to this one :'(
-
Allways interesting to read the latest comments but it does seem we have got to a level and have run out of new idea's :( What keeps me going though was standing at our favourite T/A's Chef's side watching him make my Chicken Madras ,so simple :-
Veg Oil in Pan (some Ghee melted into the Oil)
Tip of Chef's spoon dipped into dried Methi leaves and stirred into pan.
Garlic/Ginger Puree added ( at least 2 heaped tsp ) and fried.
Tom Puree added and stirred in.
A good heaped tbl spoon of 'Chef's Spice Massala' (looked a coarse texture and with the colour of Garam Masala )
Chili Powder (cant remember how much)
A Chef's spoon of Base followed by Pre-Cooked Chicken some more Base,Salt,and a good pinch of fresh Coriander.
Simmered for a few Minutes then poured into a T/A container and garnished with fresh Coriander.
Job Done.
No High heat,No Spiced Oil (other than Ghee melted in),No 'special' additives unless it was in the Spice Mix :-\
It tasted lovely and I just can't get close to this one :'(
Simplicity that is the way!!!! (as mentioned above)
best, Rich
-
Hi emin-j, & everyone who has answerd this thread , the 'benchmarks' description was probably wrong, but as a new member it has sparked the update i personally thought was missing on cr0. When I joined, I noticed a void of new information even after genuine reports from bir's, & members experiments, and I just wondered where we were on this at Autumn 2011. I was never looking for a quick fix to this & as curryhell hinted at on this thread, the thrill is in the chase. Emin-j, what you are experiencing is what I suspect alot of people are still is that taste, doesn't taste like shop bought powdered spices heated up..regards to all who have chipped in to myinitial question
ELW
-
It tasted lovely and I just can't get close to this one :'(
I feel your pain. ;)
There is something encouraging about the fact that, as loveitspicy says, it should be simple - no special ingredients, no special techniques, just bringing everything together and executing it well. But at the same time it is somewhat disheartening in that, for so many of us, despite this supposed simplicity, we have been unable to emulate it.
The dishes I make tend to be quite cyclical and I have just come back to the humble Madras. In fact, I made it last night and while it was enjoyable, it lacked the magical BIR quality. I just don't know where to go next with it really. I am hoping these lessons with Az go ahead as I think they will help tremendously.
All good fun. ;D
-
For the past seven years I have visited Indian Takeaway kitchens
I made friends with quite a few chefs and been shown just about everything I wanted to know about their cooking.
There are recipes on this site which will get you an average takeaways flavour
Average takeaways take little trouble, and use ingredients identical to you and me
But you can't get the the flavour of the best ones, because the base cannot be replicated at home
It is because of the flavoured oil used in the base
The oil may be flavoured in different ways
Fried chicken ,chips, poppadoms, bhajees, samosas, pakora, paneer
A combination of the above flavours could be in it, and it needs a huge quantity cooked
The impact on the finished base is immense
This is real
The bases I have been given, stand head and shoulders above my version, using "fresh" ingredients
Of course technique is important too, But I have assumed most of us are doing that right
The most important thing is the first reduction of curry base
You must cook until dry
I'm not saying give up, but if you want to progress beyond this culinary wall, then you have to think in terms of huge wastage to produce your oil
Personally, I don't think it's worth it
It's enough to know, why I'm stuck
-
For the past seven years I have visited Indian Takeaway kitchens ... But you can't get the the flavour of the best ones, because the base cannot be replicated at home. It is because of the flavoured oil used in the base ... The impact on the finished base is immense. This is real.
OK, very interesting observation, Haldi. But have you ever managed to acquire a portion of their base and cook with it at home ? If so, have you /then/ been able to replicate the BIR flavour.
The most important thing is the first reduction of curry base. You must cook until dry
This is also interesting. I seem to recall that when we were doing "Madras 2011 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5378.0)" and using the Taz base (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4163.0), that was also a required technique, but I confess I did not continue with it (either with the Taz base or with the "reduce until dry" technique) and yet my wife and I still feel that my curries are equal to, or better than, those of my local BIR, which is a pretty good BIR in its own right, although like most it does have its good periods and its less good ones, presumably associated with change of chef. Certainly I can consistently exceed its less good periods, and equal its good ones. Mick ("Curry Barking Mad") also reported :
I still stand by what I said, the Taz base relies on the first base being reduced to such a level that the oil fries the spices once the majority of water has been boiled off.
The previously accepted 'normal' method does not need this as the spices are fried/fused in oil prior to the base going in the pan. From then on you could add all the base in one go if you wish and reduce or add it at a chefs spoon at a time for all the difference it makes. I have seen chefs do this with no difference in taste in the final curry. Only my opinion from what I have seen.
** Phil.
-
Just been watching Dip's video's again, And he does not reduce the first ladel of base at all, In fact he just seem's to throw it all in after cooking out the spices for about 20/30sec's, So maybe it don't matter how you do it ;D (As CBM said). Seem's like each chef has his own way of doing things.
HS
-
Just been watching Dip's video's again, And he does not reduce the first ladle of base at all, In fact he just seems to throw it all in after cooking out the spices for about 20/30sec's, So maybe it don't matter how you do it ;D (As CBM said). Seems like each chef has his own way of doing things.
I think that Ramirez has hit the nail on the head in the other thread (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6169.msg61458) :
Say, for example, we are testing hot/cold base, there is a danger that this might not make as big a difference as it should purely because other areas of our technique/method are not correct. If you asked a BIR chef to do the same test, the difference could be far more discernible because their technique/method is sound and every other element of the dish is well executed, if that makes sense (?).
Which in this context could mean that full reduction is essential if (say) the spices are not already bhooned; it may make little or no difference at all if they are already bhooned. In other words, Mick's point (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5573.msg54793#msg54793), already cited above.
** Phil.
-
This thread seems to have sparked up the interest again :)
Sorry to repeat what I have already said and everyone has their own idea as to what they believe is 'The Taste'
Our favourite T/A consistently beats all local T/A's for flavour.
They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes.
They do not use higher heat than I have at home using our normal Gas Hob.
They do not have excess Oil in the finished dish
They do not reduce the first ladle of Base
They do have that wonderful flavour and aroma that is still in my Car for about two days after I collected it from the T/A :P
I have been making a Madras Curry almost every weekend since I joined the Forum,I have tried a fair few Base Recipes and different Madras Recipes,I can at least match the local T/A's on flavour but not the one I mentioned earlier.
The best T/A Curry's seem to me to be lightly Spiced in flavour and light in consistency but with a very Savoury lip smacking flavour up front, and that Aroma !.......mmmm I think I'll go and get some Base out the Freezer ;D
-
And therein (regarding the various replies to this thread) lies the crux of the problem (and of this forum) in answering your question ELW!
- Someone says it's all to do with the base; but someone else disagrees; they say it's all about "technique"
- Someone says they use previously used ("spicy") oil; someone else disagrees; their BIR "never" uses used oil
- Someone says it's important to "reduce" the first amount (ladle, chef's spoon, etc) of base; someone else disagrees; they say their BIR "just chucks it in"
- Someone says it's important to heat the base before adding it to the curry; but someone else disagrees; their BIR NEVER uses heated base
- Someone says it's important to use high temperatures; but someone else disagrees; they say their BIR uses far lower temperatures
- Someone else says......AD INFINITUM! ::)
And both, allegedly, have "witnessed" these diammetrically opposed practices at their favourite BIR! :-\
So, the only REALISITC way for individuals to progress is (IMO) to:
- Be very aware of what YOU are personally trying to reproduce (e.g. YOUR favourite BIR curry...either from present days or past?)
- Take notice of all of the (mostly contradictory) statements and observations, made by various members, and consider the merits of there statements and observations as they may apply to YOU and YOUR quest
- But, FIRST AND FOREMOST, BEFRIEND THE STAFF at your favourite BIR
- Get yourself into their kitchen, talking to their chef(s)
- See, FOR YOURSELF, how they cook your favourite curry
- Get THEM to show YOU how to cook it YOURSELF
- Be aware of any missing pieces of information from what they say to you (i.e. don't take things for granted...e.g. that "this is what is in the base"...see it made first hand)
- Then, practice, practice, and then practice some some more (which might be what SL was alluding in his previous post?) to perfect YOUR favourite BIR curry at home!
If you pay too much attention to, or try to make too much sense of, members' posts on this forum, you'll probably go mental in the process! :P
Anywhat, that's MY two farthings worth (which is probably about all it is worth!)! ;D
Footnote:
For me, I am trying to replicate decent BIR curries from the 70s and 80s. I place particular credence to those members who:
- have similar experiences and similar pursuits
- have convincing experience and knowledge of practices of BIR curries and their preparation at that time
- have actually been in the kitchens of their favourite BIRs, at that time, and of others since
All others I take with a pinch of salt because I feel their pursuits and experiences are clearly far different than mine.
-
They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes.
It may be in the base though
OK, very interesting observation, Haldi. But have you ever managed to acquire a portion of their base and cook with it at home ? If so, have you /then/ been able to replicate the BIR flavour.
Yes it comes out perfectly
Aroma and flavour
and I agree with Cory Ander
Find out how your local cooks
That's what I've done, but clearly chefs cook differently
I love reading any first hand observations
-
No High heat,No Spiced Oil (other than Ghee melted in),No 'special' additives unless it was in the Spice Mix :-\
It tasted lovely and I just can't get close to this one :'(.......They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes.
They do not use higher heat than I have at home using our normal Gas Hob.
They do not have excess Oil in the finished dish
They do not reduce the first ladle of Base
So how DO they do it EminJ? You're obviously missing SOMETHING (ingredients, technique, or otherwise!) :-\
Perhaps you can get back there and ask them? ;)
-
Let me expand on your points, if I may?:
No 'special' additives unless it was in the Spice Mix
Have you SEEN them make their spice mix?
They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes
Fair enough comment but, do they use it in their base, as Haldi has questioned? And have you SEEN them make their base?
They do not use higher heat than I have at home using our normal Gas Hob
I find this VERY hard to believe! The output (in energy terms) must be FAR higher than that of a "normal" (presumably "domestic") gas hob! Even though the flames don't look "ferocious"
They do not have excess Oil in the finished dish
Of course, by definition, "excess" is too much (but "too much" is better than "too little", in my book). But how much oil would you say that use, per dish?
They do not reduce the first ladle of Base
I am gobsmacked by the seeming contradiction (to many others' observations) here. I agree with what Haldi says; this, in my opinion (i.e the "bhoona" process) is one of THE MOST significant aspects of "technique" (but perhaps not for the mildest curries) to extract maximum flavours from the spices and to produce that "BIR taste and aroma".
As I said ELW, if someone says it's "white", another will say it's "black"! So make up your own mind and experiment and practice! :P
-
I agree that reducing the sauces down makes for better flavour, works the same way with everything even a tin of soup.
The bhoona or cooking out the spices is just as obviously right as well.
Technique is definitely important, as is taking the time to do the recipe justice and not cutting corners ie, not bhoona'ing to save time, not reducing to save time etc.
Practice and repetition.
We have a quandry though, say i have 5 local curry houses, they all cook the same dishes they are all different, why? because they have different chefs, with different techniques differeing amounts of patience and the odd one or two who couldn't give a toss and just want the wages and to get home.
I suggest that we here are the same to a certain extent, when i try a new recipe i read it through, then i have a think about things a bit, then i read it through again, and probably a few more minutes thinking, then some more reading...I take care to follow the recipe, but then i'll change things as im going along :) ill add a little of this and remove a bit of that. Because i know what my tastes are and thats my aim.
If the phone rings i'll take the pan off the heat and go and answer it, thats not in the recipe.
SOme people will read the recipe once and then make the dish, some will alter things some won't, some might have a phone call some won't but all this makes no difference because they are not cooking to MY tastes.
Were all different, we'll never make a uniform curry.
This site proves this, we have real chefs recipes here, conspiracies aside, they are all using the same ingredients, and the only difference is the chef and his technique.
-
Let me expand on your points, if I may?:
No 'special' additives unless it was in the Spice Mix
Have you SEEN them make their spice mix?
No, as I said earlier their Spice Mix looked like your usual Garam Masala,same colour and coarse texture, when I asked about the Spice Mix the answer was ' that is Chef's own Masala.
They do not use Spiced Oil in the main dishes
Fair enough comment but, do they use it in their base, as Haldi has questioned? And have you SEEN them make their base?
I did ask if they used re-claimed Oil in the Base and they said No.
They do not use higher heat than I have at home using our normal Gas Hob
I find this VERY hard to believe! The output (in energy terms) must be FAR higher than that of a "normal" (presumably "domestic") gas hob! Even though the flames don't look "ferocious"
This is only a small T/A in a Villiage and not a busy Town or City type T/A It was a Industrial type Gas Hob on what seemed quite a low flame but my Curry was made slowboat style with no manic scraping of the pan and certainly no flames !
They do not have excess Oil in the finished dish
Of course, by definition, "excess" is too much (but "too much" is better than "too little", in my book). But how much oil would you say that use, per dish?
Sorry cant remember how much but I would reckon I could re-claim no more than two tsp of Oil from the top of my Curry.
They do not reduce the first ladle of Base
I am gobsmacked by the seeming contradiction (to many others' observations) here. I agree with what Haldi says; this, in my opinion (i.e the "bhoona" process) is one of THE MOST significant aspects of "technique" (but perhaps not for the mildest curries) to extract maximum flavours from the spices and to produce that "BIR taste and aroma".
The first ladle of base was allowed to simmer for probably a minute and definately not reduced down by any great amount.
As I said ELW, if someone says it's "white", another will say it's "black"! So make up your own mind and experiment and practice! :P
I will make the trip to this T/A again soon and will ask more questions,they are friendly Guys and always ask how my Curry's are coming on ! problem is it's a 25 mile round trip but well worth the effort. ;)
-
crack on and get cooking!...The more you cook the better your results will be.
Sounds to me a bit like a football coach telling their players to just "get out there and play! The more you play the better you will get!" without providing any guidance or direction. I suspect they wouldn't hold their job too long! :P
Surely a little (lot) more guidance is in order? :-\
If you are going to quote me Cory please don't do it out of context by concentrating just on the words you want to challenge - I also said "this site has everything you need", i.e. the guidance is there.
-
I would like to suggest that this post doesn't veer into a search for the holy grail - the fact that some members can beat 3 out of 5 BI Rs is actually testament to this site and their cooking. If we said we could beat 3 out of 5 French restaurants would that be considered an achievement.
I disagree. Your comment confirms why I sometimes see things differently to other people on this forum. By my reckoning, there's fewer than 2 out of 5 BIRs where I rate the food these days. I'm sure the ratio was higher in the 1980s and most of the 90s. So, that means at least 3 out of 5 BIRs serve food which is mediocre and relatively tasteless. How can it be an achievement to "beat 3 out of 5 BIRs" when the standard is so low?
Yes, it would certainly be impressive to beat 3 out of 5 French restaurants because the standard is probably much higher.
I disagree with you George. I too have eating curries since the 1970s and my palette is not mediocre and tasteless and nor are my curries.
-
I disagree with you George. I too have eating curries since the 1970s and my palette is not mediocre and tasteless and nor are my curries.
If you are going to quote me Stephen please don't do it out of context by twisting what I wrote. I said that 3 out of 5 BIRs (very approx, I mean) serve mediocre, tasteless curries these days. I did not say your palette and/or your curries are tasteless.
-
If you are going to quote me Cory please don't do it out of context by concentrating just on the words you want to challenge - I also said "this site has everything you need", i.e. the guidance is there.
Sorry if I offended you SL, but that was the gist of what I heard you saying....no doubt you meant something completely different (and, elsewhere, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt!)
Nevertheless, I still maintain that, for you to say (in relation to ELW's questions) that "everything exists on this site" provides next to no guidance or direction at all. I'd like to think that you (and all of us) can (should) provide much better "guidance" to ELW (and others) than that :-\
-
OK, very interesting observation, Haldi. But have you ever managed to acquire a portion of their base and cook with it at home ? If so, have you /then/ been able to replicate the BIR flavour.
Yes it comes out perfectly
Aroma and flavour
For me, this is such an important point (that has been raised before) and has nevertheless gets glossed over!
Haldi (whose opinion I hold in high regard) maintains (if I understand him correctly) that:
- Using the base suppied by his BIR he can TOTALLY replicate the taste and aroma of their curries. This suggests, to me, that his "technique" is spot on (as I would expect from his experience in BIR kitchens and with cooking BIR curries)
- However, by making the base himself (at home), he CAN'T replicate the same taste and aroma (all else remains unchanged)! This suggests, to me, that it's ALL TO DO WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE BASE!
Haldi, please correct me if my understanding is incorrect? Otherwise, please guys, listen to what Haldi is telling you and please explore it more fully!
From my point of view, whilst I accept, and trust, Haldi's observations, I disagree that we need voluminous quantities of cooking (to generate "used oil") to replicate the results of a typical BIR. Haldi may be right, but I strongly suspect there are other ways for the home cook to reproduce the same results (hence my experimentation with synthesising "spiced oil").
-
I agree with every word of CA's last message !
** Phil.
-
- However, by making the base himself (at home), he CAN'T replicate the same taste and aroma (all else remains unchanged)! This suggests, to me, that it's ALL TO DO WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE BASE!
Expanding on that thought, could it be that best tasting TAs pour the remains of the previous pot of base into the new one before cooking it? Maybe you would get this underlying moorish sweetness from the onions from the first base being cooked again and for longer?
-
Thats odd when i purchased some real bir base , and cooked with it ,the taste was nothing like there curries. We need more members to repeat this. Is it only me and haldi that have actually purchased a tub of real bir base to try at home? surely others have tried
-
Hi DD
Just over a year ago I got some base sauce from my local TA (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4851.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4851.0))
May be time to repeat this again as, tis but a distant memory. I don't recall a eurika moment as in the base was the be all and end all - but it did make a delicious curry I seem to recall.
However, I am pretty sure my technique is much better a year on, and perhaps the results would be different. Will see if I can get some more base from them....
Cheers
-
- However, by making the base himself (at home), he CAN'T replicate the same taste and aroma (all else remains unchanged)! This suggests, to me, that it's ALL TO DO WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE BASE!
Expanding on that thought, could it be that best tasting TAs pour the remains of the previous pot of base into the new one before cooking it? Maybe you would get this underlying moorish sweetness from the onions from the first base being cooked again and for longer?
And no restaurant is going to openly admit to that given the food regs nowadays compared to yesteryear ;). What else is being kept from us as it would now be considered to be bad practice??? Could this be part of the elusive taste?? >:(
[/list]
-
- However, by making the base himself (at home), he CAN'T replicate the same taste and aroma (all else remains unchanged)! This suggests, to me, that it's ALL TO DO WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE BASE!
Expanding on that thought, could it be that best tasting TAs pour the remains of the previous pot of base into the new one before cooking it? Maybe you would get this underlying moorish sweetness from the onions from the first base being cooked again and for longer?
Just my two-penneth...When I had my take-away lesson in the Preem in Tilbury the chef tipped the very last drop of base sauce from his big pan to make a madras(the way it was cooked was so simple).He then put this aside and got another pan of base sauce,heated it up and started another dish.The madras in this place is particularly tasty so this place doesn't do this although some may.I asked Abdul the same question on my home lessons and he shook his head as well.
I'm still convinced there's something put it the base sauce that they don't or can't let us know.Indeed on my take-away lesson I noticed a big tub of something lurking in the chef's cupboard.Oh the manager said "Sometime the chef puts that in the base gravy-some stock".That was that,wouldn't say no more-I could tell he didn't want to elaborate.Hopefully one day we'll have some definite answers.[/list]
-
Hi curryhell, yes i did once think the same. However i have let base mature for several days and it does get i iny bit nearer the bir taste, as the onions begin to ferment. but not significantly better to be worth repeating.
It is a fact restaurants are cagey about revealing there base sauce recipe. i think they will provide the spice mix at a push, but not the base sauce recipe. This was my experience anyway. I must ask to get a demo at my local of them making a base sauce. They never said this would be a strict no no. It may be a bit odd though turning up in the morning !! :)