Topic: A couple of changes to Kris Dhillon's madras

[spiceyokooko]

All very interesting observations, Spiceyokooko, and I thank you for drawing them to my (and our) attention; I shall clearly have to re-visit KD with a freshly-made batch of authentic KD g.m. !

Heya Phil

I'm also going to have a crack at Khris's Madras and also probably like you I'm reluctant to invest in a freshly ground Garam Masala mix specifically for her dishes that I may or may not like! But I do feel it's integral to her spicing and will therefore have to do it.

I also note in her book a couple of things -

1/ In the weights and measures section she uses 'slightly rounded' spoonfuls unless specified as being level;
2/ She pre-cooks her chicken in the first stage base sauce (onion/garlic/ginger/salt puree) and this will obviously add to the texture, depth of flavour and tenderness of the chicken. This is why in her Madras recipe she specifies approximately a 10 minute cook time.

Out of curiosity, did you precook your meat as per Khris's instructions and then cook the final Madras dish for the time she specified - approx 10 mins and still found the amount of sauce used (per weight of meat) to be insufficient?

[spiceyokooko]

Heya Ray

Thanks very much for giving your opinions on this.

As you say, GM is generally added at the end of the dish, added any earlier, usually results in the GM's pungency being reduced if included at the 'hard cooking' stage.

Could it be that we're 'assuming' that Khris's Garam Masala is added at the end, when in reality it's actually being used as a generic 'Spice Mix' in conjunction and alongside the other spices she specifies within the dish? She specifies that the Garam Masala is added along side the Cumin and Fenugreek almost exactly at the half way stage in cooking - after 5 mins, the dish then get's cooked out for another 5 mins before being ready. It's not as if it's being added right at the end and simply stirred in without any further cooking time as per more conventional Garam Masala use.

As you rightly point out, if the Garam Masala is added as part of the cooking process it's pungency would be reduced, yet you still felt it overpowered the dish and made it taste pharmaceuticial?

Most of the ingredients in GM are a fair bit more expensive than the ingredients you would find in a 'curry masala', so why does Kris ask us to use GM, in the way we would use Curry Masala?

It's a good question. But it's clear from her use of Garam Masala that that is her 'Spice Mix' or 'Curry Masala' if you prefer as none of the other ingredients in it apart from Cumin feature at any other stage of her basic 'Chicken Curry' or 'Madras' recipes. It's not unusual for all of the ingredients (perhaps with the exception of Black/Brown Cardamon) found in her Garam Masala to feature at some point in most Indian dishes. Perhaps she needs or feels the need for those flavours to feature somewhere within the overall flavour of the dish and by adding them in relatively small quantities in the her 'Spice Mix' and then used in small quantities of Garam Masala within each dish is the most cost effective way of her achieving that. I'm convinced in my mind that the use of Black/Brown Cardamons is due to cost cutting as they're cheaper than Green ones and contribute a very similar if slightly 'less refined and earthier' flavour. 1 teaspoon of whole Green Cardamons is not huge when you consider it also has 1 tablespoons (3 teaspoons) each of Coriander and Cumin in it! A teaspoon of whole cloves and half a small nutmeg isn't huge either when considered as part of the overall volume.

To me, it doesn't make sense (in a restaurant environment anyway) and it does seem  that Kris is attempting to  give her dishes a flavour that you wouldn't have found in any of her restaurants?

Do any of us truly know exactly what the ingredients and proportions of them are in these highly secretive 'Spice Mix's' or 'Curry Masala's used in BIR's? There's a thread at the moment by Whamsy asking this specific question - and none of us can really give him the answer. What he does know is, the 'Spice Mix's he's used in substitute of the secret recipe obtained from his local BIR does not give him the same results.

It's difficult therefore I think to reject Khris's Garam Masala 'Spice Mix' as being wrong, when we don't really know what commercial BIR's actually use.

Just my own personal opinion and speculation of course!

Cheers and good Karma!

[Razor]

Hi Spiceyokooko,

Could it be that we're 'assuming' that Khris's Garam Masala is added at the end, when in reality it's actually being used as a generic 'Spice Mix'

No, I'm aware of how Kris intends us to use GM in her recipes, and like I said, I think it pretty unusual.  My understanding of GM is, it is mostly used as a condiment rather than a main ingredient such as a generic spice mix, that way, you get the full benefit of the aromatics.

As you rightly point out, if the Garam Masala is added as part of the cooking process it's pungency would be reduced, yet you still felt it overpowered the dish and made it taste pharmaceutical?

Yes, even though the aromatics have somewhat dissipated, there is still an underlying hint of cloves, cinnamon and cardamom which to me, do indeed have a 'medicine' note to them which is still noticeable in the dish.  I'm not saying that it's wrong, I just don't believe that GM is used in this way as I've never noticed a 'medicine' note to any curry I've ever had with the exception of the odd Balti dish.

It's not unusual for all of the ingredients (perhaps with the exception of Black/Brown Cardamon) found in her Garam Masala to feature at some point in most Indian dishes.

Totally agree but are they as prevalent in BIR cooking as appose to traditional Indian cuisine?

Do any of us truly know exactly what the ingredients and proportions of them are in these highly secretive 'Spice Mix's' or 'Curry Masala's used in BIR's? There's a thread at the moment by Whamsy asking this specific question - and none of us can really give him the answer. What he does know is, the 'Spice Mix's he's used in substitute of the secret recipe obtained from his local BIR does not give him the same results.

Probably not mate but I'm pretty confident that the generic curry masala doesn't include cloves, cinnamon, cardamom or bay leaf, as these are the 'hot' (garam) element in GM.  As for Whamsy's question with regards to spice mixes, it always going to be hard for any of us to give him a definitive answer because none of us know what he uses as the bench mark ie; does he prefer his curries with a stronger jeera flavour or does he prefer a more garlicky element.  Another question to Whamsy from me would be, how many different spice masala's has he actually tried from off cr0 or anywhere else for that matter?  Abdul Mohed, tells us that he is a restaurateur, and so his publish '8 spice' should be the real deal although Whamsy prefers the curries he makes using the donated spice mix.  That in itself tells me that 'what's good for the goose, is not always good for the gander'!

Back to Kris Dhillon, I have both books and have tried a fair amount of the recipes to spec but, I've always dropped the use of the GM in favour of my own spice masala on future tries.  I know that to some, Kris's recipes are a revelation and have took them far closer to BIR food than they ever could have imagined but to me, I think that they can be greatly improved on by adding this, omitting that, and substituting some ingredients for others.  It's all down to the individual taste I guess?

Plenty to debate here, which is great for the forum.

Ray

[spiceyokooko]

Ray

Plenty to debate here, which is great for the forum.

Absolutely!

I cooked out Khris's Madras recipe this afternoon - to the letter and I'm happy that all stages were cooked correctly with all the specified ingredients in the correct quantitites. I now have 4 jars of various Garam Masala mixes, all marked up as to what they are fortunately!

My first impression of her Madras was one of over-powering saltiness. This might just be me, because I do have a reputation amongst my culinary friends of being a bit of a 'salt Nazi' in other words I don't like using much salt in my cooking and because of this my taste buds have probably re-tuned themselves to a lower salt tolerance.

When I do use salt it's usually high grade sea salt and often smoked, so to use bog standard chemically processed salt in the quantities Khris specified was a bit too over-powering for me, which was a shame because it spoilt the dish and I was barely able to taste anything out apart from salt!

Having said that, I didn't find the Garam Masala over-powered the flavour (probably because of the salt!) but I won't really be able to say until I've cooked it again and dialled back that salt content. My other observations were that for my taste it could do with a bit more ooomph in the chilli department so next time I'd probably up the chilli to a teaspoon and a half and may even add some fresh chopped green finger chillis at the same time as the fresh coriander as well as perhaps some fresh lemon juice to give it some extra zing.

I can well understand why for many people Khris's Madras is a step towards BIR Nirvana for them, but until I've cooked it again with the above modifications it's hard to be objective about it.

I took a photo with my pilau rice to show how it came out and only ended up eating half that bowl for dinner, I'll see if it enhances overnight when I eat the other half!

Cheers and good Karma!

[chewytikka]

Hi Spicey
Just my two pennies worth and nothing personal to you or any cR0 members, its just a revelation to me.

After reading your post earlier, I downloaded the KD book and I don't know if it's genuine or not but, I've spent some time going through it.
In my opinion, Its no wonder people are still searching for the holy grail, if they've started off their curry quest using this book as a tutorial.
It also explains to me why there are so many crazy theories and notions on how things are done in a BIR kitchen.

Firstly she is Punjabi, so it follows her restaurant (as the story goes) she opened back in 1989, would have been what I call Pakistani BIR, this would explain all the Garam Masala and the use of Cumin in her dishes. Just about every Pakistani BIR I've been in has had a Cumin or Bassar background flavour to all the dishes I've tasted.

The majority of BIR in England are Bangladeshi run. like fellow cR0 member Abdul Mohed (Who posts genuine recipes, in my view).

Going through her recipes, they are simply NOT authentic BIR at all. in fact not sure what they are, she definitely wasn't taught by a BIR commercial cook, basically the fundamentals are missing, No mixed powder, G&G, or tomato puree. Then there's the use of garam masala and cumin in everything, even in a Korma,
and get this, a BIR Korma without Coconut! I don't think so. Her CTM, is her chicken curry with only Paprika and Cream added, no mention of Almond,
Coconut, Sugar or even Tandoori Masala.

IMHO I don't think Kris Dhillon should be recommended to new members as a route to learn how to replicate BIR style curries. A total waste of onions.
If this is the genuine Curry Secret Book that is!

Getting back to your curry, it doesn't look like a Madras because it isn't.
But there are plenty of good Madras recipes on cR0 worthy of your effort, even the Admin's Passata Madras is got to be better than this recipe. ;D

cheers Chewy
p.s. She's probably a lovely women and it was 21 years ago ;D

[Peripatetic Phil]

IMHO I don't think Kris Dhillon should be recommended to new members as a route to learn how to replicate BIR style curries. A total waste of onions.   If this is the genuine Curry Secret Book that is!

Yes, it is, and in my opinion It is a great shame it was pirated.  I have four or five printed editions, including two of "The New Curry Secret", and to my mind they are worth every penny.  I am afraid that with one arm out of commission, I neither have the energy nor the enthusiasm to debate every one of your points (with some of which, of course, I completely agree) but I want to defend both Khris and TCS : they /taught/ me how to make BIR curries, and without them I would probably never have gained the enthusiasm to join, and participate in, fora such as CR0.  I wholeheartedly recommend TCS to complete BIR beginners, although I am less enthusiastic about TNCS.  And to Spicey : I /love/ salt, can't get enough of it (ideally Maldon sea salt, my maternal family home), which may explain why KD's recipes resonate so powerfully with me !

** Phil.

[PaulP]

I would rate the Authentic Balti Cookbook over KD1 for getting you close to BIR cooking. I would rate CR0 above any single book in print for BIR recipes.

If I hadn't discovered CR0, I would have tried some KD1 recipes and probably stopped trying to cook BIR after a while.
Perhaps when KD1 was first printed it might have been a significant book but times have moved on.

I've got nothing against the author, just the recipes.

Cheers,

Paul

[spiceyokooko]

Hi there chewytikka

Thanks for your views on this, as Ray said earlier, it stimulates debate and discussion.

Firstly, I think I did mention in a previous post that I was not defending Khris Dillon here - I was defending a method - that method being, that you MUST cook out a recipe exactly as the recipe is described before you can start modifying it or even passing judgement on it in a critical way.

basically the fundamentals are missing, No mixed powder, G&G, or tomato puree.

Okay you've stumped me a little here, what are you referring to by 'no mixed powder'? I assume you're referring to the 'Spice Mix' or 'Curry Masala' as some call it that BIR's use? This is really what prompted my comments in this thread to begin with! Khris Dillon calls her 'Spice Mix' Garam Masala! So how can you say she doesn't use one? She just calls it by a name you and others have usually associated with something else.

No Garlic and Ginger or tomato puree? Did you actually read the recipe for her base sauce? Clearly not because that contains those exact three ingredients you're claiming she doesn't use!

Then there's the use of garam masala and cumin in everything

As I said previously, the 'Spice Mix' or 'Mixed Powder' as you refer to she calls Garam Masala, she doesn't used Garam Masala in the more conventional way most of us associate it with - at the end of cooking. You'll notice with her recipe for basic Chicken Curry and Madras Garam Masala goes in half way through cooking, that's not using Garam Masala in the traditional sense 'stirred in at the end of cooking' and her Garam Masala uses far too high a percentage of Cumin and Coriander to be considered and used in a conventional way. I originally estimated the Coriander and Cumin % of the total volume to be about 40% having actually made it I can revise that estimate up to about two thirds the total volume.

and get this, a BIR Korma without Coconut! I don't think so. Her CTM, is her chicken curry with only Paprika and Cream added, no mention of Almond, Coconut, Sugar or even Tandoori Masala.

I can't really comment on these dishes as I've not cooked or tasted them. I've looked at the ingredients and agree some of the omissions are curious, and all her dishes appear to follow a fairly formulaic pattern with only small additions or omissions in ingredients according to the dish. Her overall flavour 'profile' is clearly coming from three things 1/ the base sauce; 2/ the precooked meat and 3/ the spice mix she uses or Garam Masala as she calls it. Personally, I don't really see how that's too far from the methods most BIR's would use.

IMHO I don't think Kris Dhillon should be recommended to new members as a route to learn how to replicate BIR style curries. A total waste of onions.

Well that's your opinion of course and as such you're perfectly entitled to express it.

However, given what you've written here (and I can only go on what you've written, so please correct me if I've assumed or interpreted anything incorrectly) you don't appear to have fully understood Khris Dillons cooking methods or use of ingredients. You claim she doesn't use 'Mixed Powder' when she clearly uses a spice mix she calls Garam Masala. You claim she doesn't use garlic, ginger or tomato puree when clearly she does in conjunction with onions in her base sauce. You complain about her use of Garam Masala when you've incorrectly understood her use of it. And finally, you've never actually bothered to cook out any of her dishes or tasted them and on that basis you claim her book shouldn't be recommended to beginners? I find it quite hard to understand exactly how you can come to that conclusion to be honest!

Getting back to your curry, it doesn't look like a Madras because it isn't

Well thanks for that! Reading the above paragraph rather suggests you're perhaps not in the best position to be able to judge whether it does or doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, it looks and tastes pretty similar to most 'run of the mill' BIR Madras's I've tasted in the past, but then my 'Holy Grail' isn't to create 'run of the mill' BIR's. My reason for cooking it was to understand why people were complaining about her Garam Masala and it's clear to me that some of the people doing so may have misunderstood and misinterpreted her recipes and instructions for cooking them - just as you appear to have done.

Cheers and good Karma!

[Razor]

Hi spiceyokooko,

My reason for cooking it was to understand why people were complaining about her Garam Masala and it's clear to me that some of the people doing so may have misunderstood and misinterpreted her recipes and instructions for cooking them - just as you appear to have done.

Mmm, sorry mate, I can't really go along with that comment.  Garam masala is exactly that, Garam meaning 'hot', masala meaning 'mix'  If a recipe calls for Garam Masala, then that's what it should mean.  It shouldn't mean 'curry masala' as that is a completely different beast.  Kris Dhillion is a well established author and restaurateur of 30+ years, I don't believe that she has made such a fundamental error in a required ingredient.

Kris asks us to use garam masala because that's exactly what she wants us to use.  She doesn't ask us to use garam Masala, hoping that we know that she really means 'curry masala'  AKA, mixed powder, spice mix, spice blend, base spice, and even curry powder.!

If I was publishing a recipe which called for chilli powder in it but I really meant paprika, I wouldn't assume that everyone would know this before hand, it doesn't make sense.

No Garlic and Ginger or tomato puree? Did you actually read the recipe for her base sauce? Clearly not because that contains those exact three ingredients you're claiming she doesn't use!

What chewy means by that is, there isn't a 'tarka' being made at the beginning of the dish for example, 3 tbs of oil, add garlic and ginger paste, then add curry masala/spice mix/mixed powder,then add 3 tsp of kashmiri chilli powder, then add diluted tomato puree, then add a chefspoon of base gravy, all pretty standard practise when making the madras and is what gives it that orangey/red colour.

Getting back to your curry, it doesn't look like a Madras because it isn't

Again, I don't think that he's being cruel here, he is simply saying that KD's madras recipe isn't really a madras, and if you have replicated her recipe to the letter, then yours isn't a madras either. The above method that I described are fundamental in making a BIR madras, if Kris doesn't include at least some of that method, she really isn't creating a madras as such.

it looks and tastes pretty similar to most 'run of the mill' BIR Madras's I've tasted in the past

Alas, this is true of so many BIR's and TA's today and is the reason why this forum strives to produce recipes of a much better quality than the 'run of the mill' BIR's and the 'Jack of all trades' TA's

In my opinion, you would be better off searching out Cory Anders recipes if you want a real 'wow' moment when you cook a madras, he also has many many other curry recipes too.  I would also suggest checking out a few of Chewytikkas videos too.  He has worked in BIR's back in the 80's (the golden age of BIR to some) and has a wealth of knowledge to share.  I'm not saying completely disregard Kris Dhillon altogether, I even have a copy of her New Curry Secret next to me as I type, I'm just saying that the 2 mentioned members will take you as close as you can get to real BIR food, IMHO....!

All the best,

Ray

[curryhell]

In my opinion, you would be better off searching out Cory Anders recipes if you want a real 'wow' moment when you cook a madras, he also has many many other curry recipes too.  I would also suggest checking out a few of Chewytikkas videos too.  He has worked in BIR's back in the 80's (the golden age of BIR to some) and has a wealth of knowledge to share.  I'm not saying completely disregard Kris Dhillon altogether, I even have a copy of her New Curry Secret next to me as I type, I'm just saying that the 2 mentioned members will take you as close as you can get to real BIR food, IMHO....!

Can't think of two better yard sticks to use Ray - CA and CT = good BIR curry dishes  ;D.  The rest of us provide the regional variations, side dishes, accompaniments etc. and there are so so many and damn tasty too .  As for KD, i bought her book (i have the NCS as well)  after having purchased a couple of Pat Chapmans. Both helped me get started in learning the basics about BIR.  The rest is now history and we are here and there is no doubt there is not a better place to be.  Only a quality BIR kitchen can provide more than we have in this forum.  I tried recipes from both books as per spec, not knowing any better at the time, with at best mediocre results.  Until and if a BIR chef pens a comprehensive volume that includes the full range of dishes available in a BIR this site is the bible.  Having said this it seems to appropriate to also acknowledge the contribution by Abdul Mohed CR0's own BIR chef who has been contributing here for a while when his work and business commitments allow him.  He has no doubt sparked interest, certainly amongst forum members here, with his first book.  This merely scratches the surface for us wannabe BIR chefs.   We want more, so much more in fact.  If he or any other BIR chef were to put together a book containing recipes and methods for the normal dishes found in all sections of a BIR menu, he would be on a real winner.  In fact he would probably give Kris and Pat a run for their money