Topic: A couple of changes to Kris Dhillon's madras

[Peripatetic Phil]

Can't answer for Ray (obviously) but just some follow-up comments :

1) I too prefer Khris's Madras without the Garam Masala;
2) I double her volume of base per unit weight of meat;
3) And I double her quantities of spices per unit volume of base;
4) And no, I have not tried it with /her/ Garam Masala -- my preference for omitting was based on the use of a commercial Garam Masala, brand no longer known but quite possibly Rajah.  In fact, with the sole exception of Mushroom Bhaji,  I no longer use Garam Masala at all.

** Phil.

[976bar]

I too have to agree with Razor.

I've made several of Dhillons recipes and to be honest I am not that impressed, including the Madras and the excessive use of Garam Masala.

But!! I also have to say that this is what this forum is all about. Individual tastes, not only from their own cooking, but also the taste that they have become accustomed to and grown up with by use of their local Indian Restaurant/Takeaway....  ;D

[spiceyokooko]

Hey Phil

Thanks for giving your opinion on this.

4) And no, I have not tried it with /her/ Garam Masala

This now prompts my question - How do you know what Khris's Madras tastes like when you haven't actually cooked it out using all the ingredients in her recipe?

If it's your assumption that ALL garam masalas taste the same or influence the taste of a dish in the same way - you'd be wrong in my opinion, as in the quantities we're dealing with in our dishes, even small changes in quantity or proportion of ingredients and even the technique of cooking them and the sequence of adding them can have quite a significant impact on the overall flavour and taste of a dish.

Personally I wouldn't put a bought garam masala anywhere near any of my dishes for two specific reasons - 1) The spices aren't freshly ground and 2) I have no idea what's actually in it and in what proportions.

This is only my opinion of course and I'm not trying to be contrary - I genuinely am interested in how and what the posters here base their opinions on.

[Peripatetic Phil]

This now prompts my question - How do you know what Khris's Madras tastes like when you haven't actually cooked it out using all the ingredients in her recipe?

I don't   My comment is based solely on Khris's Madras as I made it (i.e., with commercial g.m.) and it may well be that it tastes five times better with her g.m. -- I just don't know.

If it's your assumption that ALL garam masalas taste the same or influence the taste of a dish in the same way - you'd be wrong in my opinion

I'd be wrong in my opinion, too !  Of course I don't assume that all g.m.s taste the same, any more than I believe that all commercial curry powders taste the same, or even that all Chicken Madras's taste the same : even different ground chillies don't taste the same, so as soon as we get on to blended spices, there is bound to be an enormous difference (as there is, by way of personal experience, between a jar of Bassar Curry Masala that has been around for three years, and a sample of the same product from a newly opened bag !).

** Phil.

[PaulP]

I've just looked at the ingredients again in the KD1 book for the garam masala. It is quite an interesting mix but the half nutmeg is an off-putter for me for starters. I bought the book just before discovering this forum so I've never cooked anything from the book as I figured I'd do better with the cr0 recipes.

I think I probably made the right decision.

Cheers,

Paul

[spiceyokooko]

I don't   My comment is based solely on Khris's Madras as I made it (i.e., with commercial g.m.) and it may well be that it tastes five times better with her g.m. -- I just don't know.

Hey Phil

Thanks for following up on this.

Okay, so let me get this right. Firstly, you prefer Khris's Madras without her Garam Masala, based on your use of a commercially made Garam Masala and you modify her dish by a) doubling the volume of base sauce per unit weight of meat and b) double her quantity of spices per unit volume of base.

So for the same weight of meat Khris uses you double the amount of sauce base and double the amount of spices and feel that the use of Garam Masala at the end of cooking is not beneficial to the overall flavour and taste?

Can I ask why you I feel these modifications to her recipe were necessary to bring it in line with your own preferences?

Cheers and good Karma!

[Peripatetic Phil]

Can I ask why you I feel these modifications to her recipe were necessary to bring it in line with your own preferences?

Very briefly, because I am typing one-handed as a result of a shoulder
injury that is getting steadily worse ...

Why no g.m. : simply because it tasted better without;
Why double sauce : I found we ran out of sauce while eating the dish before we ran out of chicken;
Why double the spice : because I found it too lacking in body and flavour with Khris's recommended quantities.

But despite all this, I still have enormous respect for Khris as mould-breaker, author and chef.  Her Chicken Madras, unmodified, got me closer to real BIR than I had achieved in forty years of experiments guided by traditional Indian recipe books.  My later improvements were just the icing on the cake.

** Phil.

[spiceyokooko]

Heya Phil

Thanks again for giving your opinions, particularly if you're finding it difficult to type due to your shoulder injury - hope that improves for you.

Why no g.m. : simply because it tasted better without;
Why double sauce : I found we ran out of sauce while eating the dish before we ran out of chicken;
Why double the spice : because I found it too lacking in body and flavour with Khris's recommended quantities.

Khris's Garam Masala contains quite a high proportion of Coriander and Cumin as an overall percentage of the total ingredients, I'd estimate somewhere in the region of 40% or even higher which is quite high for a Garam Masala. Traditionally, Garam Masala's only contained the 4 body heat inducing ingredients - Cinnamon, Cloves, Black Peppercorns and Cardamons and was added right at the end of cooking to help improve aroma.

Khris is using her Garam Masala as a 'Spice Mix' in conjunction and alongside her other spicing and as part of the overall spicing of the dish. She's not using her Garam Masala in the conventional way - at the end of cooking.

In my opinion this is why you've not found the dish to your liking and have had to modify it. You're not cooking it, or using the ingredients in the way Khris described and intended.

Incidentally, I'm not defending Khris here - I'm defending a methodology. Cooking is about technique, methods AND ingredients, it's not just about one or the other. You've got to cook dishes out in precisely the way they were intended before you can start modifying them.

Cheers and good Karma!

[Peripatetic Phil]

All very interesting observations, Spiceyokooko, and I thank you for drawing them to my (and our) attention; I shall clearly have to re-visit KD with a freshly-made batch of authentic KD g.m. !

Incidentally, I'm not defending Khris here - I'm defending a methodology. Cooking is about technique, methods AND ingredients, it's not just about one or the other. You've got to cook dishes out in precisely the way they were intended before you can start modifying them.

Modulo "You've got" (which I would prefer to cast as"It is usually better", I completely agree:)

** Phil-the-one-armed.

[Razor]

Hi Spiceyokooko,

Sorry for the late reply to your original queries (I must of missed it somehow )

I have made KD's GM recipe to spec and used it as specified in her recipes.  Whilst I agree with you with regards to the level of coriander seeds and cumin seeds being quite high and unusual for a GM mix, the aromatics such as cloves cinnamon, nutmeg, cardamoms (green/black) still burst through and to me, give the dish a "pharmaceutical" note.  That's just my opinion, and I would stress to anyone, try to make the dish to spec first before making any changes, whether they're recommended by me or others.  Changing a published recipe before trying it, just because you don't like the look of it, is probably going to take you further away from what your taste buds prefer rather than closer to it...!

Khris is using her Garam Masala as a 'Spice Mix' in conjunction and alongside her other spicing and as part of the overall spicing of the dish. She's not using her Garam Masala in the conventional way - at the end of cooking.

Yes I agree and find it strange practise.  As you say, GM is generally added at the end of the dish, added any earlier, usually results in the GM's pungency being reduced if included at the 'hard cooking' stage.  Most of the ingredients in GM are a fair bit more expensive than the ingredients you would find in a 'curry masala', so why does Kris ask us to use GM, in the way we would use Curry Masala?  To me, it doesn't make sense (in a restaurant environment anyway) and it does seem  that Kris is attempting to  give her dishes a flavour that you wouldn't have found in any of her restaurants?

Incidentally, if I ever do use GM in a dish these days, I always use Rajah Garam masala.  For the tiny amounts that I use, it's not worth the effort to make up my own and to be fair, I can't see many BIR's going through the effort to make their own GM either (this is only speculation based on no evidence whatsoever)

Ray