Topic: Curryheads "Madras 2011"

[Derek Dansak]

yes i agree, with the keep it simple plan. i am going to follow it to the letter as solarspace has done. then comment on its weaknesses. i will be bloddy suprised if its anything like the hot slightly sour/sweet  madras  they serve at my local. i purchased one yesterday, and its got a great underlying flavour of meat stock and slight soupyness. hard to beat

[Razor]

Guy's,

Can I suggest that, first off, we use the Taz base and the Taz mix, using the Taz method, then, we could use the same ingredients to do the, fry off method and see what the major differences are, if any?

I know from experience, that if you fry off the garlic, ginger, spices tom puree (in that order) before any base goes in, you DO end up with a very oily curry.  It's no problem for me because I love to spoon off the excess and use for my next curry but I would say that using the fry method, really intensifies the tomato flavour, perhaps a little too much!

Whaddya think?

Ray

[solarsplace]

Guy's,

Can I suggest that, first off, we use the Taz base and the Taz mix, using the Taz method, then, we could use the same ingredients to do the, fry off method and see what the major differences are, if any?

I know from experience, that if you fry off the garlic, ginger, spices tom puree (in that order) before any base goes in, you DO end up with a very oily curry.  It's no problem for me because I love to spoon off the excess and use for my next curry but I would say that using the fry method, really intensifies the tomato flavour, perhaps a little too much!

Whaddya think?

Ray

Hi Ray

Great suggestion!

Whatever we decide as a whole, I'm going to do a side by side comparison of fry vs reduce this week anyway, just to satisfy curiosity as its a new base and mix for me.

I can fully understand that some (including myself) feel a little unsure to say the least with the full blown reduction technique as it does seem somewhat alien.

Actually thinking about it - Dippy seems to use this kind of technique too? (no real need to discuss, just a passing thought! )

Cheers guys

[PaulP]

For all those who don't believe that the spices cook with the reduction method I'll tell you something I observed:

When I last made a batch of spiced oil and onion/pepper paste I used an oil thermometer throughout the process. We are talking here of 2 litres of oil containing loads of onions, some peppers, whole garlic cloves and 6 tablespoons of spice mix.

During 2 hours of cooking for which the spices were in for the last hour, the oil temperature never exceeded 105 degrees C.  Were the spices cooked? They had virtually disappeared leaving only about a tablespoon of red grit at the bottom of the pan. Nothing was burned either, the red grit remaining tasted pretty yummy.

I've searched high and low on the internet for a definition of what temperature is required to cook spices but come up with nothing. It seems that nobody has published the science of this subject.

Paul

[Razor]

Hi Paul,

Interesting post, and a subject that we really need to understand a bit better.

I've no idea what temps spices cook at but I would suggest, not very high for not very long.  It's so easy to burn spices.  The reduction method virtually takes all the risk away, great for newbies to BIR cooking.

I also think how we heat spices makes a difference too!  Simply boiling them doesn't work (unless they're whole spices of course) the ground spices tend not to dissolve and leave a gritty texture.  However, boiling them in a base sauce that contains about 3 tbsp of oil per 300ml of base, as the Taz base does, works fine.

Anyway, are we settled on the Taz Base, Taz Mix, and TAZ method, for the first test?   All's we need now, is a Madras to try this with!

Perhaps Achmal/Mick would like to suggest a Madras recipe that he may have tried using the Taz combo?

Ray

P.S,  Just a quick thought.  I struggled to blend down the coriander and cumin seeds with this base, and often picked up a bit of husk in the final dish.  I spoke with Mick, and he confirmed that he now uses ground spices.  So, Are we all going to do the same?  The options being;

a) We use the whole spices as the spec recipe
b) We measure out the whole spices as the spec recipe, roast, then grind to powder
c) We measure out the whole spices as the spec recipe and gind without roasting
d) We just use packet, ground spices

My problem with d) is, will 1 tbs of whole coriander produce 1 tbs of gound coriander?  Until we know what equates from turning whole spoces in to ground spices, we may not add the correct amounts.

Ray

[PaulP]

Hi Ray,

I would go for option d) using packet ground spices. I used 1 tablespoon of ground cumin and coriander in the last Taz base I made, as opposed to 1.5 tablespoons for the whole spices.

I don't really like to grind my spices as although I have a dedicated coffee grinder they don't come out as smooth as ready ground.

How about Chewy's recently posted madras recipe:

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5376.0

Interesting to me as it has more tom puree than I'm used to and it has a realistic amount of chilli powder compared to some other recipes.

Cheers,

Paul

[solarsplace]

Hi Ray,

...snip...

How about Chewy's recently posted madras recipe:

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5376.0

Hi

Was just about to post the same thing! - Madras suggestion seconded.

No real objections to any of the spice suggestions. Only made the base once and used whole spice as suggested.

This fairly cheap hand blender has no problems reducing the base to a smooth consistency: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kenwood-Wizard-HB615-Blender-Speed/dp/B00023C4Z4/ref=sr_1_1?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1295954822&sr=1-1

Plus the quantity produced is reasonably small so a blending in a jug blender is not out of the question, if a little bit annoying.

But will the base actually be different between using whole or pre-made powder?

May keep one portion of whole spice base aside and make the next with pre-powdered to do a side by side comparison.

Cheers

[Razor]

Hi Paul/SP

I actually used my Kenwood food processor to blend this base, not thinking that my hand blender would be up to the job, maybe I will give it a go next time!

Is Chewy's Madras the one with a splash of Worcestershire sauce in it, (I will check) if so, I have been adding a touch in my latest Madras, just a little at a time.  Too little, and I can't detect it, too much and it's all wrong, so I think I need to experiment a bit more with the w/sauce.

Ray

[Peripatetic Phil]

I've no idea what temps spices cook at but I would suggest, not very high for not very long. 

Agreed.  If you think about KD1, the cumin and fenugreek are added to an oil/base mixture at a gentle simmer and cooked for at most five minutes, yet are perfectly cooked in that time; the chilli is added at a rolling boil and cooked for an extra five minutes.  I think these facts are very pertinent and revealing.

I also think how we heat spices makes a difference too!  Simply boiling them doesn't work (unless they're whole spices of course) the ground spices tend not to dissolve and leave a gritty texture. 

Also agreed : that is why traditional British curries were so disgusting and needed fruit in them to soften the harshness of the raw spices.

However, boiling them in a base sauce that contains about 3 tbsp of oil per 300ml of base, as the Taz base does, works fine.

I use ten tablespoons oil to 1 1/2 pints base, which is about 10 tbsp to 850 ml or 3 1/2 tbsp per 300 ml base.  Very close agreement.

a) We use the whole spices as the spec recipe
b) We measure out the whole spices as the spec recipe, roast, then grind to powder
c) We measure out the whole spices as the spec recipe and grind without roasting
d) We just use packet, ground spices

Happy with a, b or d (prefer d), but dislike b because unless all are skilled and experienced spice roasters, this could lead to massive variation and -- in some cases -- total disaster.

My problem with d) is, will 1 tbs of whole coriander produce 1 tbs of gound coriander?  Until we know what equates from turning whole spoces in to ground spices, we may not add the correct amounts.

There are two losses here : (1) the packing density of whole coriander seeds is nowhere near unity (but it is also true that even ground coriander won't have a packing density approaching unity unless one deliberately compresses it), and (2) there will be losses in scraping the ground coriander from the spice grinder.  I don't mind running a test later today (I have lots of unwanted coriander seeds !), but I would conjecture in advance that I am unlikely to get much more than 0,6 teaspoons ground coriander from 1 teaspoon seeds

** Phil.

[Razor]

Hi Phil,

I would conjecture in advance that I am unlikely to get much more than 0,6 teaspoons ground coriander from 1 teaspoon seeds

So I guess Pauls suggestion of 1.5 tbs of whole spice should roughly equate to 1 tbs of ground?

Ray