Topic: Chicken Pathia Experiment

[Stephen Lindsay]

...everyone, if you have a favourite recipe, be it Indian or whatever that you would like to share with us then lets make this weekend as an open forum to kick start all this off again

I was going to follow through this experiment to its conclusion but following 976bar's rallying call I have decided to post the first stage now in the hope that this can be my own little contribution to kick starting the forum.

In Search of Chicken Pathia

Introduction and Background

After having been living on my own in a rented cottage for the past year with an electric hob that I just couldn't control, I have recently moved into a new house with my new partner, and of course new kitchen, with gas hob and wok burner.  Although I continued to cook some curries in the cottage, space was limited and the cooker just didn't lend itself to cooking enjoyably.

However I am at a stage in my life where everything is like a new start (apart from my job) and consequently I wanted to inject a similar spirit into my "hobbies", one of which is cooking curries.  So, keen to put the new kitchen to use, a whole new batch of spices was bought from the local Indian grocer and I started with a base I was well aware of, but had never actually made, the Bruce Edwards base and in particular the recipe posted on this site in 2008.

I chose this for several reasons including its simplicity and that it has gone through a fair amount of development over the years since Bruce published the original Curry House Cookery article in the Curry Club magazine.  I actually possess the originals as I was a member of Pat Chapman's Curry Club at the time, so I sort of look at this as almost having a collector's item!

When I moved into the house in May I tried a few of Bruce's recipe in particular the Medium curry, and its close, but spicier, relative, the Madras.  I was pleased with the results but they were perhaps too easy to arrive at and just following the recipes of others doesn't inspire me.  I am essentially creative in nature. I play guitar in a rock band even though I am nearly 50 and as bald as a coot.  I wanted to be able to produce something that was the result of my efforts.

To continue to enjoy my curries by cooking meals for eating as opposed to turning the kitchen into a laboratory, I set myself some basic principles.  I hoped that they would allow me also introduce a level of empiricism into my efforts, but not detract from the essential pleasure of cooking and eating meals.

The Pathia happens to be one of my favourite curries and I don't see a lot of recipes or discussion on the forum, where the Bhuna, the Madras and Tandoori cooking have a lot of attention.  I like all of these dishes too, there is hardly a curry I don't like.  I thought if I was going to be a bit more creative then I could turn my attention to the Pathia and of course be able to eat one a curry I love and have never tried to replicate before.  So firstly a bit of research and out come the cookbooks, internet searches, menu perusal and of course reference to this site.

Method

This chapter follows my efforts to reproduce a restaurant style Pathia.  From what I have gleamed from other cookbooks, recipes posted on the internet and descriptions from my small collection of Indian takeaway menus, there are two possible (or at least common) pathways to producing the necessary sweet and sour contrast that characterises a Pathia.  I decided to call them Versions 1 and 2 respectively.  Version 1 uses mango chutney (and / or sugar) and lemon juice and Version 2 uses sugar and tamarind.  Traditionally, tamarind comes in a dried block, a piece of which is soaked in hot water to then give a sour liquid that is sieved off.  Alternatively, tamarind comes in a concentrated thick paste that resembles treacle in appearance.  I chose the latter because, if Indian restaurants use tamarind (and I?m not certain that they do), then tamarind concentrate would seem to be the more practical ingredient.  My own assumption (which is to be tested) however is that in the modern Indian takeaway, the mango chutney and lemon juice combination is most likely to form the orthodoxy.

I then decided that I needed to work to some basic principles that would guide me through my experiments in an organised way without sacrificing the best bit of cooking curries, which is eating them!  I therefore decided that the following process would assist me:

1.   Use the same base and spice mixture (in this case by Bruce Edwards) to reduce variables.

2.   Start with a control recipe, based on research and using a combination of experience and educated guesswork.

3.   Cook recipes consecutively, one version each evening, to avoid sensory overload.

4.   Make notes at the time of eating.

5.   Save some sauce to taste again the next day and revise notes if required.

6.   Change only one ingredient or method at a time in order to maintain control over variables.

7.   Benchmark the final recipes against versions purchased from local establishments.

8.   Amend recipe if necessary.

Here is the first (control) recipe, Version 1a, you will see that it relies heavily on the Bruce Edwards medium curry with additional ingredients in moderate quantities for the sweet and sour flavours.

Chicken Pathia, Version 1a, 24 July 2010

Ingredients:

oil, 1 fl. oz.
thinly sliced onion or pepper, a few slivers
tomato puree, 1 level tbsp., mixed with 2 tbsp water
BE spice mixture, 1 tbsp.
1/2 teaspoon of chilli powder
1/2 tsp dried fenugreek leaves
1/2 teaspoon of salt
1 tbsp of sugar
1 tbsp of mango chutney
1 tbsp of lemon juice
10 fl. oz. (approx 300 ml metric) BE curry base gravy
fresh tomato, a few quarters (5 or 6?)
fresh coriander, to garnish

Method:

heat the oil in a pan, add the onion/pepper mix, and fry up for about a minute
add the tomato paste, mix powder, salt, chilli powder and fenugreek, stir in well and fry up for about 30 seconds
add half the base gravy and stir in well
add the sugar and mango chutney and stir in
add the lemon juice and stir
add the pre-cooked chicken and stir in
cook and occasionally stir for about 1 1/2 minutes then add in the tomato quarters
stir in the rest of the base gravy and let cook until the sauce has reduced to the right thickness
garnish with fresh coriander

Notes

Version 1a

Initial Comments

This recipe would appear to be in the general ball park for a Pathia.  The overall flavours are there but perhaps it is not making an impression in terms of the intensity of flavours that a Pathia can deliver.  The mango chutney is coming through along with the tomato in the background.  This suggests that with the addition of cream a Chasni dish could be created.  On the second tasting the next day the mango chutney favour has mellowed into the dish rather than being apart from it.  The heat is evident and the sweetness remains predominant confirming that more sour should be tried to see if this affects the overall flavour.

Specific comments

 - Level of spicing is medium, there is a good balance of heat and flavour.  It could be spicier.
 - Tomato flavour is evident but not strong.  It could take a little more tomato flavour.
 - Using ketchup as an alternative might be an option but this could alter the sweetness.
 - Mango chutney flavour is evident and seems about right.
 - Fenugreek flavour is not evident.  It could be eliminated.
 - Sweetness is evident but not sickly.  Contrast between sweet and sour tends towards sweet, falling short of sour flavours.  Lemon juice could be increased.

Conclusion

Increase lemon juice to 2 tbsp. (Version 1b).

Version 1b

Initial Comments

This recipe is again in the right ball park for a Pathia.  The overall flavours are still there and the sour of the additional lemon juice is now coming through.

Specific comments

 - Spicing seems on par and additional spicing would be an optional rather than essential change.
 - Balance of sweet and sour seems about right.
 - Fenugreek flavour is not evident.  It could be eliminated.
 - It could take a little more tomato flavour as an optional change.

Conclusion

Increase tomato puree to 2 tbsp. (Version 1c).

Version 1c

Initial Comments

This recipe is still in the right ball park for a Pathia and the colour is more red than yellow brown due to the doubling of tomato puree.  The overall flavours are still there and the tomato flavour is coming through strongly but the level of sweetness remains about right.

Specific comments

It could be that the tomato flavour is now too strong and it is worth cutting this back, halfway between this and version 1a/b.

Conclusion

Cut back the tomato puree to 1 1/2 tbsp. (Version 1d).

Version 1d

Initial Comments

The cutting back of the tomato puree is just about right.  The overall flavours are still there and the tomato flavour is coming through strongly but not overly so.

Specific comments

The tomato flavour is now well balanced and this recipe is now at a stage to compare side by side with those bought from local establishments.

Final Recipe - Chicken Pathia, Version 1d, 27 July 2010

Ingredients:

oil, 1 fl. oz.
thinly sliced onion or pepper, a few slivers
tomato puree, 1 1/2 level tbsp., mixed with 2 tbsp water
BE spice mixture, 1 tbsp.
1/2 teaspoon of chilli powder
1/2 tsp dried fenugreek leaves
1/2 teaspoon of salt
1 tbsp of sugar
1 tbsp of mango chutney
2 tbsp of lemon juice
10 fl. oz. (approx 300 ml metric) BE curry base gravy
fresh tomato, a few quarters (5 or 6?)
fresh coriander, to garnish

Method:

heat the oil in a pan, add the onion/pepper mix, and fry up for about a minute
add the tomato paste, mix powder, salt, chilli powder and fenugreek, stir in well and fry up for about 30 seconds
add half the base gravy and stir in well
add the sugar and mango chutney and stir in
add the lemon juice and stir
add the pre-cooked chicken and stir in
cook and occasionally stir for about 1 1/2 minutes then add in the tomato quarters
stir in the rest of the base gravy and let cook until the sauce has reduced to the right thickness
garnish with fresh coriander

Overall Conclusion

This has been a very interesting experiment, not least because it has helped me, using an organised approach to "get inside" this particular dish.  Reading the notes above, it is evident that there is no emotion or passion coming through.  This was deliberate, as I was attempting to ensure that my thought processes, rather than my feelings, were guiding one step to the next.  However I can say that I thoroughly enjoyed working through this process and looked forward to a new Pathia every evening!  Curryfest!

I am aware that this post is not rocket science, nor is it ground breaking.  Indeed when you review the notes the only alterations are fiddling about with the levels of lemon juice and tomato puree.  I am pleased however, that I have found a way of developing dishes that suits my personality, the way I approach things, and that helps me learn from one step to the next.

It has also given me a direction in which to further experiment with Pathia recipes.  Version 2 using tamarind hasn't been started.  I am also pondering as to whether or not I should repeat the same exercise using other bases.  I have had good results with the Ashoka base and there are bases on here that seem to have been tried and tested so perhaps others on the forum might wish to suggest which bases would be worth a try?

[976bar]

Fantastic post Stephen!!

This is exactly what I think is required of this site, a good methodical approach to changing one item at a time in order to get the final taste that one wants from a dish.

It's precise, clear and detailed and to be honest in my opinion I don't want to see the emotion of other peoples works because that would not necessarily be my emotions of the same dish, we should all be allowed to enjoy our own emotions in private

But good clear recipes like this is something we haven't seen in a while because of all the childish bickering.......

Keep up the good work

I'm currently making a beouf a la bourguignonne, which I am taking step by step notes and pictures and although not Indian is a fantastic classic French dish, which I'll post on here later.

Chin Chin!!  ;D

[gazman1976]

Well done , that dish looks scrummy !

Garry

[Mikka1]

Wow! What a post Steven!
Very concise. Excellent stuff. Off to have a thorough read now.
Cheers.

[Stephen Lindsay]

thanks guys, I made my first tamarind version today - not impressed at all so there's a bit of work to do!!!

[PaulP]

Great post Stephen. I notice there's no garlic and ginger in this one. Sometimes less is more.

I haven't had a pathia for ages so I might give this a go soon.

Cheers,

Paul.

[Stephen Lindsay]

Hi Paul

Yes no garlic and ginger (though there is some in the BE base of course) though if I was making the same recipe with the Ashoka base I would add their garlic and ginger paste as this forms part of the Ashoka style.

It may be that adding these at the start would enhance the recipe, especially garlic and that could be something to add in to my experiments in due course.

[Stephen Lindsay]

Tonight's Tea

[Iamtheblade]

i tried making ch.pathia myself, using  pickled shallot vinegar as souring agent along with garlic and sugar and found this very near to pukka!

[Madrasandy]

 Great post Stephen keep up the great work. I like your way of experimenting, I will also soon be doing another experiment following my successful Madras one, but with a vindaloo this time, but I will be following your way of experimentation.