Topic: Base Sauce or Stock?

[Malc.]

One of the things that struck me first having recently joined the forums, is the use of pre-made gravy/sauce.  All the while thinking it isn't right but seems but to go along with an ever increasing trend in TA's and BIR's. Well, the ones that I have tried anyway.

I then had a read up of CA's topic on the changing faces of curry. It certainly seems like a reasoned conclusion.  This though, has placed me firmly as a lover of older style Bangladeshi cuisine.

The one and only time I was invited to look through the kitchen door at my local I was shown a huge stock pot (or should that read holy grail) containing what must have therefore been the most sacred and holy of ingredients, the pre-made stock.

Now I refer to it as stock as that is really what it was. The restaurant owner talked me through the importance of this stock and the main ingredients but essentially it was a stock made using mostly onion and some added spices etc. I do remember how he said it was cooked for some immense time to allow the onions to be broken down. They would then mash them to a pulp within the stock and remove the remaining skins.  Of course there was much more too it but essentially it was a semi clear stock not a gravy or sauce.

This formed the basis to all of the curry dishes that required a sauce of some description. I watched on as in minutes the chef demonstrated how to make a Korma Sauce. He added spices to his pan along with what must have been coconut powder and then added a ladle of the stock, brought it to the boil and then added from a tin, some condensed milk and there it was, the perfect Korma Sauce in literally 2 minutes. Not a runny modern take on a sauce but a sauce with body.

What I did note also was that they didn't have one spice mix, they had several. Which also seems a little different to what I have read here so far.

Has anyone else experienced this or can help me create this stock?

[JerryM]

Axe,

interesting few thoughts.

i have no experience of "semi clear" stock. all the BIR pots i've seen look very much along the lines of what the sites recipes produce ie not clear. i do feel "stock" is a much better description than what we liberally call base or gravy. i am sold on the long cook too and feel the end point of most site recipes is too early (~3hrs is needed).

the observation on the use of several mix powders is personally something that would sit well with me and my needs (i think recipe refinement is what i'm lacking or my gap).

[Malc.]

What I have considered is that this one mix, one base, style of cooking is only to keep things simple in the kitchen. For examlple: my wife and I sampled a newly opened TA over a course of a few months and in that time we tried about 8 different mains. All of which were cooked to this style of thinking. The Dopiaza was swimming in a tomato like gravy with onion and pepper, not what I am used to which is a lot drier with just onions. It wasn't all bad but I couldn't rely on receiving a dish I knew. Perhaps this is the regional variation tha CA mentions, but you can't argue it would make it easier for them to produce.

It doesn't make sense to me that the variety of dishes available can be cooked this way and having several different spice mixes certainly sits better in my mind. Using a base stock with the key additives like the onion provides the foundation and the different mixes then gives you the structure, with the finishing touches provided by the individual spices and requirements of the dish. I know this sits against the current train of thought but it is one that I feel I ought to pursue. For now at least.

The BIR I mention also gave me a tour of the store room which was an impressive site as the kitchen. They a small room with nothing but shelves and on these shelves were metal tins about the size of a sweet jar in the newsagents, Floor to ceiling. Each one containing a spice of some description, over 150 of these tins were in there. I'm not suggesting each one was actually used or had a different spice from its neighbour but it certainly formed the opinion that they we're magicians of spice.

So that brings me back to finding out what is actually in the stock pot. Its funny, as its only having been here for the last few days that really sparked my interest to look at this.

In the meantime i'm going to try MarkJ's base. Having had my eyes opened and tastebuds tantalised with my take on CA's Seekh Kebab, I can't wait to process the base. I hope to look at the various stages to see if I can produce a stock rather than a sauce. Its been quite a read his topic all 8 pages of it!

[Razor]

Hi Axe,

Essentially, base or gravy, is a stock.  I have known it to be called all three.  Most bases rely heavily on large quantities of onions along with various spices, pretty much how you describe the stock that you observed.

I am totally with you on how you describe the TA's and BIR's reason's for cooking this way but, maybe the base,gravy or stock, is not as recent an innovation as it may first seem?

If I'm correct, I think the correct term for the base is "Grabbi or Garab" something that was developed long long ago in Indian cuisine, way before it was it was introduced to Britain.  Perhaps it was not used in the same way that the BIR's use it today, but if you think of it as just a "stock" then guess, this would make sense?

Lots of cuisines use bases or stocks as their starting point's (as I'm sure you know this anyway ), Italian = tomatoes, french = wine, and so on...  I think describing the base as a stock is a very suitable description.

Have you made one yet Axe, if not, what is your perception of how it would be?  My perception of what a base should be like, is, a thin, mildy spiced liquid of soup consistency, versatile enough as not to be the dominant flavour in the dish but balanced enough to be the foundation or starting point for a dish, giving you the flexability to build on.

As for a standard spice blend or spice masala, I'm completely with you on this.  It's definitely created for convenience.  The varying taste of the dish being create by timing, quantity and technique and maybe even temperature?

I think separate spice masala's lend itself more to traditional style's of cooking rather than BIR.  The one noticeable thing about most BIR's is that "taste".  Each of their dishes will have it, you can't put your finger on what it is, but you certainly know when it's missing.

For example, a traditional Vindaloo will be a completely different dish from a traditional Madras (I know some people won't accept Madras as having traditional origins)  Whereby, a BIR vindaloo, albeit, a different dish from Madras, you can tell that they're cousins!  Does that make sense

Anyway, that's my slant on things, for what it's worth  ;D

Ray

[Stephen Lindsay]

Hi Axe

I think of bases and stocks as being one and the same thing. It sounds to me that what you are describing as a stock is one which has minimal (or no) spicing. Essentially I see a base (or stock) as being an onion soup and other ingredients are variations on this basic recipe.

I have several old books on cooking curries, ranging from the 1950s to 1970s. They are not BIR style at all but home style cooking. The one thing they have in common is that there is no base or stock. However the basic ingredients are the same. The recipes call for preparation of finely chopped onions, ginger, garlic etc. but it exists for that meal only and not as way of churning out dozens of curries.

It seems to me that the use of a huge stock pot brings a little more industrialisation into the cooking process in what is after all, a commercial context. Domestically however, we can aim to be as home style or as BIR as we want. Indeed there is something to be said for being both.

So for me, from a one off recipe to a clear stock to a spiced base are but points on a continuum.

[Malc.]

I refer to 'stock' as being a thin watery liquid infused with flavours that provide the foundation flavours of the dish or dishes it is used in. What I read here that is referred to as 'base', I see as a sauce.

Since the basis of a BIR is a commercial one, then anything produced in its kitchen must be done on a commercial basis. This is why I favour my idea of a single 'stock' where I can add the basic ingredients used time and again, what ever they be.

From a sauce point of view, I would be happy to tender the notion that restaurants do indeed have pre-made sauces that they use, but again, to be any good they would have to produce several different types and store it. This doesn't make sense from a practical or commercial point of view, unless of course you were producing and selling an awful lot.

This brings me back to one stock but multiple spice mixes and so the circle goes for me. It doesn't help having seen this in practice and put to very good use.

I feel a well earned and timely visit to my local coming on, notepads at the ready

[chriswg]

A stock would imply lots of veg are boiled up in water with some spices, then the veg is removed leaving you with a slightly spicy vegetable stock. The BIR base sauces are definitely blended with all the veg to produce more of a sauce - this provides the body of the curry, a stock wouldn't work.

I understand you comments on the various spice mixes. it's a point we think Mikka might have tried to raise once before in his own unique crazy way. There is nothing wrong with having a spice-less base and adding exactly the right spices at curry cooking time. The speed comes from the fact most of the BIR curries will contain ground coriander, turmeric, cumin e.t.c. From a speed point of view it makes sense to have these at least partially added to the base.

[Malc.]

Chris,

I do remember them saying they put some spices in the stock, but it did work as a stock. It maybe that it is a dying tradition or a very little used way of doing things but none the less, I watched them create a dish from the the stock.

It is no surprise to me that this might sound a little odd as I have struggled to find any other restaurant that produces food of their ilk. They are not that far fetched from what we all generalise but to me they are ahead of the game, even if they are old school.

I will say this, I have never eaten a better Chicken Korma anywhere, come very close but never beaten.

Who is to say my tastes are more demanding, its just what I know and like. That is the passion that drives me forward to search for a solution to cook it at home.

One thing is for sure, in all that I have learnt, Indian or not, each step I take is with an open mind. 

[Mikka1]

Axe this is a very interesting post and I think the first I've read anywhere, Kudos. I'm a great believer in taste per dish if you will? But adding to that its very important that dishes are put out there that people can actually cook and get good results from nearly every-time they try.

The real big difference to my mind is that as you say and I'm finding out there simply cannot be just ONE SPICE MIX. Yes you'll get ok results but never near the real thing whichever it is that a person likes? (Side by side with the real thing).

Of course if you are experienced enough you'll know the additions to make but to a newcomer that would be near impossible hence the generic recipes posted on various sites. CA incidentally does say that his spice mix is what HE likes so fair do's to that also, there are many.

Frankly however I know everyone can cook a base sauce but it just ain't in that at all. It's what the cook adds here and there just like in any cooking style from anywhere on the globe, that final finish makes the dish.

Actually I'm amazed at the talk of this base and that base and what you can have with each? They are just about all the same really if you really look at each of them as regards contents. It's just boiled water with some spices and vegetables with onions, no big deal for anyone to get right if they try, again very interesting and a great eye opening post.

I love my food, I love it when I get it right too, (Don't we all). Thing is the sauce can be made in a pan with a little effort in just half an hour though you just won't have that much for another time. Right now I'm playing with the pan. SPICES, Additions, playing, smelling, playing again. Results are good, no point in posting anything until its just right. I'm very funny about that.

Excellent points and observations Axe. Welcome.

[Cory Ander]

I avoid using the terms "sauce" and "gravy" because I concluded, long ago, that it is neither...though BIR staff tend to call it "gravy". 

I settled on the term "curry base", since it forms the basis of most BIR curries. 

However, it is also a "stock" by any other name (albeit with the solids blended in).

It is undoubtedly this that you saw in the huge stock pots Axe. 

The essence of a curry base is boiled onions (and, thereafter, various additional veggies and minimal spicing).  You may have seen a very basic curry base comprised of onions and very little else Axe?

Or, perhaps you are referring to "akhni" (a clear, fragrant, spice infused stock with the solids removed)?

You can use both, but it is the "curry base" that is essential to what I consider to be traditional BIR cooking.