Topic: Base Sauce or Stock?

[Cory Ander]

the above statement is something i'd not realised. CA could u point me to the ones u're thinking of

Browse through the spice mixes in the supplementary recipes section Jerry, there are several posted there that are reportedly from BIRs.

[Cory Ander]

It would be a useful asset to know who is and who isn't a BIR Chef

As far as I'm aware there are none on this forum (past or present)

If that is not possible, it would be good to have authentic mixes and indeed recipes full stop, marked as being from the horses mouth, so to speak.

They generally are Axe (usually in the title of the post or at the start of the post) and there are many of them.  Most of Haldi's (Pete's) are straight from BIRs..as are many others (reportedly)

[Cory Ander]

could u point me to the ones u're thinking of

Spice mixes reportedly from BIRs (or BIR chefs):

Dipuraja's:  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4354.0
Taz's:  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4164.0
DD's:  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2975.0
SS's:  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2096.0
Rajver:  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2153.0\

You will see that they are all very similar and generally contain coriander, cumin, tumeric, paprika and curry powder.

I am sure there are several others.  You could probably include some of those published in books (Kushi, Kris Dhillon, etc) that are reportedly from BIRs (which I haven't done here).

[JerryM]

CA,

many thanks for adding the links to the spice mix. i have used DD's for quite a while but it's got pushed out by u're aka. i've also used the BE2008 for a while too. i keep 3 off myself (LB, Kushi & aka).

these are the mixes i've shortlisted and compared previously:

Bruce Edwards (old)
BE 2008
Secret Santa
Kushi
parker 21 rajah c/pwdr
Haldi Takeaway
DerekDansak BIR
Dipuraja's
parker 21 mouchak

i think for the 1st stage of my spice journey i will need to be to make sure i've tried them all out.

they are a u say very similar and i don't feel they will make that difference that i'm looking for. i still remain sceptical that we only have part of the story on mix powder. i have no proof of course.

[Malc.]

Thanks for the comments CA, as I am new here I am still trying to find my legs, so to speak. There is so much info on this site locked away in lengthy topics, that it will probably take some time for me to find, but i'll get there.


So me hearties, back on track, any more thoughts about the stock theory?

[peterandjen]

On the different stock for a different curry/end result, id say your probably right, in michelin star restaurants maybe, but what the people here are trying to do is make a stock that serves all purposes, the same stock whether it be a balti/madras/korma or whatever.
Ive been in an indian restaurant kitchen and they use one stock for all.
Ive also worked on an indian restaurants kitchen roof and they used one pot of stock for all, and the asbestos that fell in it apparently had no ill effects either come to that! and it was and still is a really good curry house.
Im speaking for myself here, i love curry, but i dont think i want to spend a week in the kitchen making 5 different stocks for 5 different end dishes. One decent stock is all you really need, the different flavours come by adding the differing end spices and ingredients and the way in which its cooked.
As long as you have a tasty but fairly underpowering stock(spice wise) i dont think you can go too far wrong.
As for spice mixes, your right all the different recipes ie balti, madras,bhuna dopiaza jalfrezi, they all contain a different blend of spices to each other, and if you bottled up the different spices and labeled them you would have a different spice mix for each curry. It would save time but i dont mind just following a recipe and grinding them fresh whenever i make a curry, plus they taste better.

[Secret Santa]

I will say this, I have never eaten a better Chicken Korma anywhere, come very close but never beaten.

Who is to say my tastes are more demanding, its just what I know and like. That is the passion that drives me forward to search for a solution to cook it at home.

Axe, if you ever manage to crack this I would like to try the recipe. I personally find BIR korma nauseating and so don't order it, but I would like to know what the version you rate so highly tastes like. It just might change my mind.

[Malc.]

i dont think i want to spend a week in the kitchen making 5 different stocks for 5 different end dishes.

As long as you have a tasty but fairly underpowering stock(spice wise) i dont think you can go too far wrong.

I don't disagree with your thinking and agree. But I do know that commercially, there are always several processed short cuts that enable restaurants to produce good reliable food quickly.

Reading here about the 'base' and then the 'spice mix' all makes sense and produces great results. But almost everyone says something is missing. Could that be another processed short cut?

Someone has mentioned about the canned tomato being processed with spices, which seems logical and that then means I don't need tomato in my base or as I would call stock.

Hypothetically, I then have three key processed short cuts that enable me to create a variety of dishes all with almost unique flavour, just by varying the amounts. Add in individual components and bingo.

I may be completely wide of the mark here, but I feel it is worth discussing. Especially as it appears that no-one has yet found the answers. Surely thinking outside of the box is worth a little time and effort.

I suppose the real question is, are we trying to create and replicate a BIR dish in its entirety or a dish that is just as enjoyable but made at home?

SS, being a lover of the milder dishes I used to have Korma quite regularly. My tastes have changed over the years and I now choose less sweet more savoury dishes.
However, I do enjoy a Korma ever now and then.

When ever the wife and I have chosen to frequent a restaurant or TA, I always judge it on its ability to cook a good korma. If it creates a dish that is runny, very pale in colour and without any real substance, it fails me. Sadly, most Korma dishes I try are like this in way shape or another and by your comments, I suspect it is the same for you too.

If I ever find out the secret which i'm sure starts here with the stock question, you will be the first to know.

[peterandjen]

I agree with your thoughts about the stock being different to a sauce.
To me a stock is a clear liquid made from the boiled ingredients and passed/sieved.
A sauce is then made by adding other ingredients to this stock.
Incidentally, i have seen an indian restaurant stock that was boiling away, with the whole ingredients in it yet still whole, then the stock is added to the final dish via ladle, but only the liquid used. But if you take a blender to this pot of stock, it would undoubtably then become a sauce.
When i took a tub of my base sauce to an indian restaurant a couple of weeks ago, the chef called it a gravy. The same restaurant used the stock i mentioned above, ie unblended.
As for finding answers to the myth of bir flavour and taste, i really believe there will never be a concise answer/recipe or method to achieve this. It all comes down to personal taste.

[Malc.]

Peter, I think we are of the same mind here just looking at the subject from different sides of the room.

Almost disturbingly coincidental, I have taken a phone call this morning from my local, here at work (we supply them certain things). This then turned into a trip to the restaurant.

During the course of my visit, I was able to ask questions to both the owner and his cousin, get close to the stock and have a look at what they put into it.

During my conversation several things became clear. Firstly, they have a passion about their cooking and were very happy to talk food. But it was clear that the language barrier was going to be a problem as much as they admitted, they didn't know the English Terms for many of the ingredients.

By far though, the greatest passion they had was trying to educate me that cooking BIR is not the way to cook curry. Time and again, this was mentioned and time and again I was offered to see how a 'real' curry is made.

Perhaps both of these and the odd pause to talk in Bangladeshi with each other, was why I felt they were being cautious of my reasons to ask. But I also felt that they honestly did not know all of the answers. Perhaps these are the simple reasons that I feel everything is shrouded in mystery.

Obesrvations

Spice Mix
On entering the kitchen I made several observations firstly, they had more than one spice mix. two larger containers held two very different mixes one with an orange/red appearance with traces of dark spice within it and the other a much lighter yellow/orange colour. There was also salt, sugar, what looked to be coconut powder and and 1 or 2 others.

Stock
This is where I now have to admit that I have been wrong to call it stock. Infact, my original observations (from some years ago) must have been wrong entirely. What was indeed in front of me was a pale yellow sauce which clearly wasn't translucent. On top lay a film of what I can only describe as oil and skin. Its consistency was that of say a Heinz tomato soup.

Out of View
I didn't think to look under the main prep table but during our discussions, I was shown from underneath an ice cream tub full of what was explained to be tomato puree. Clearly it was not just puree. It had a very smooth texture and a rich red colour. Traces of deep red oil were trying to gather at the edges of the tub and I could see that something was submerged within it, probably garlic cloves from what I could tell.

Discussions

This really is in two parts because the spice mix deserves its own mention. This is as it was explained but does not provide the full picture i'm afraid. Fortunately though, I have been invited to see the gravy made from start to finish, which I intend to do.

Gravy Main
The bulk as we know is onion roughly chopped the process was described: Using about 40lbof onion (this seems like alot) add to pan with a little water and soften, then add a mixture of ginger, garlic and green chilli that has been crushed, about 2 table spoons and again along with green peppers and soften. Top up with water and cook for 2 1/2 hours. Blend the mix thoroughly and then add the spice mix. It gets quite vague here as he wanted to talk 'real' curry and I wanted to press on with the procedure. Sadly that's as far as we got.

Gravy Spice Mix
He lead me to 'the shelf' where bestowed upon it rested an assortment of spices. Some usual suspects and some not so. I was told that all of these were used to create the gravy mix. Among these were Cinnamon, Coriander, Bay Leaf, after that it got a little more involved. Firstly he mentioned Jeera regular seeds as you would expect but also Black Jeera. Then there was what he called Aniseed which is not star anise but a seed similar to fennel but smaller they call something like 'guam moori'. Then a mix of spices they referred to as Punch Puron. This actually contained a mix of spices essentially this is where the normal Jeera was but also with black and yellow mustard seeds as well as onion seeds and possibly others.

Conclusion

I was wrong about the stock, which is a relief in a way as it obviously challenges almost everything I have read on here. There are quite a few spices involved in the gravy alone and more than one spice mix is used, as well as at least one other shortcut procedure, the tomato puree mix.

I will report back with more when I finally get the chance to watch the sauce made from start to finish.

Thanks for reading.