Topic: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"

[Garp]

I agree with Phil....

[Stephen Lindsay]

I never have any qualms about discussing politics and religion so here is my tuppence worth.

Religion - is a man-made infrastructure which had its origins as a form of social control and this remains the case to some extent, at least to those who worship. In other respects, some of the values and Christian ideals are good rules to live by, but they can be achieved without religious formality. I am not religious but I like to think that I live a decent life, have integrity and treat people as I'd like to be treated by others.

Now onto Phil's question. Well I have to say that I think this recent period is the most significant, politically, in my own lifetime, and that includes living through some pretty momentous events, the 3 day week in the 1970s, the Thatcher years, a brutal exposition of monetarism, rolling back the public sector, and the glorification of the 'me' culture.

I think David Cameron made the most humungous political error in holding a referendum and as Phil rightly points out this was for purely selfish reasons, i.e. the wish to quell the anti-EU section of their party amidst concerns about the rise of UKIP (what happened to them eh?). So yes, nothing to do with the good of our countries and its people, all about furthering the cause of the Tories. In so doing, I believe he underestimated the Leave campaign. Those charlatans like Gove and Johnson who sold the lie on the bus and promised the people a new Eldorado, Where were they when they vote was announced? The couldn't get out of the way quick enough such was their realisation that they could no longer talk the talk and now had to walk the walk.

I also think that having a Remainer come in as Prime Minister to negotiate us out of the EU was doomed from the start. It's like picking one of the Turkeys to organise the Christmas menu.

Being a Scot, I also have a particular axe to grind in that our country voted to remain in droves. We are constantly told that this is meaningless because it is a UK vote. As a Scot, this feels like being told that we are not really a nation, not one that has it's own Parliament and that we are no more than another suburb. During the negotiations, our own Government has felt ignored as any efforts to be involved in the process have been dismissed. Yet when it suits, the Tories are happy to bribe the DUP (equivalent to Flat Earthers in my opinion) to the tune of 12 billion and create 'special' arrangements for Northern Ireland. If it special for NI then it should be special for Scotland. But it isn't of course because the Tories don't need us to function in the Commons. So, the Tories just present as self-serving.

Two years down the line we are a laughing stock in the eyes of Europe and I recommend that you Google what the newspapers around the continent have been saying today, it makes for fantastic reading. I think this is the most incompetent, divided, untrustworthy set of lying politicians that I've ever known.

We are now far better informed than we were two years ago. It seems to me that the only way we can get some sense back into this fiasco is to ensure that we are given the opportunity to look again at what leaving the EU really means. That suggests another referendum is required.

[Garp]

Well said, sir.

[livo]

Loud applause from the public gallery.
I have a fishing mate who is Muslim and family members born again. We don't discuss religion. I have a couple (married) best friends who are staunch trade unionists. We don't discuss politics. I have friends who are lesbian and gay. We don't discuss sexuality.  On these matters, respectively, I don't agree with any of them but it does me no harm to accept them for who they are.  I do take great delight in razzing my psuedo-vegan daughter.

What I find quite strange, even troubling, is the amount of energy, time and resource being poured into the whole Brexit issued.  I realise it can't be just wished away now that it is out of the bag, but it is certainly a dominant beast.

[Naga]

What Stephen said. 100%.

[Peripatetic Phil]

I have a fishing mate who is Muslim and family members born again. We don't discuss religion. I have a couple (married) best friends who are staunch trade unionists. We don't discuss politics. I have friends who are lesbian and gay. We don't discuss sexuality.  On these matters, respectively, I don't agree with any of them but it does me no harm to accept them for who they are. 

Now that I find interesting.  A couple of years ago, my wife and I made up two of a group of eight travelling by minibus across Tibet and into Nepal, and between us we represented seven different countries and several religions.  We discussed both race and religion very openly, and I think that everyone involved learned a great deal.  We all parted the best of friends and keep in touch to this day.

As to sexuality, while I will (and have) discuss(ed) this with women who swing both ways, I have never had such a discussion with a homosexual 0r bi-sexual man, nor would I set out to do so, but if one were to want to discuss his sexuality with me then I don't think I would have any problem with that.

What I find quite strange, even troubling, is the amount of energy, time and resource being poured into the whole Brexit issued.  I realise it can't be just wished away now that it is out of the bag, but it is certainly a dominant beast.

I find it neither strange nor troubling.  Perhaps if pre-Nazi Germany had spent more time discussing the potential advantages and disadvantages of being Nazified, the whole history of the 20th century might have been markedly different (for the better).

** Phil.

[livo]

Wasn't surviving a no confidence motion not so long ago supposed to mean another couldn't be raised for at least the next 12 months?  I'm positive that's what was reported yet here we have just had another.

Aha!  Party room and Parliament. 2 different motion forums.

[Peripatetic Phil]

Wasn't surviving a no confidence motion not so long ago supposed to mean another couldn't be raised for at least the next 12 months?  I'm positive that's what was reported yet here we have just had another.

Don't know, would have to research that, but prima facie  an analogous motion on the same grounds should most certainly not be allowed, but a further motion on entirely different grounds should, IMHO.

** Phil.

[Gav Iscon]

Was the previous one not a leadership challenge against May and this one against the government? Not that i pay loads of attention to it 

[Donald Brasco]

Donald Brasco, if there is an underlying plan in any of this, who would you say is calling the shots? An individual, several, the Party machine or, for the conspiracy theorists, possibly the Bilderberg group or the World Bank. This may appear to be a flippant question but in fact it isn't. If your theory is correct, the strings are being pulled from somewhere.  Either that or it really is just lurching along out of control, in which case nobody can tell where it goes from here.

Unless you expect me to admit to being a member of the illuminati, which is something I hardly ever do in public, my answer to your question has to be "how could I possibly know?"