Topic: How do you know when you are "there" ?

[Peripatetic Phil]

Ah well, I think I'll give up on this idea, then.  I have, over the past few weeks, collected almost 250ml of "spiced oil", so I shall use that to make today's base, I will then cook a lamb karahari and a chicken curry using it, and report back.

** Phil.

[Garp]

I stopped searching for that 100% BIR flavour/aroma when I realised it doesn't exist

 So I imagined that unique flavour and aroma from the pre-nineties curries that doesn't exist in modern curries then?  I must be more in my dotage than I thought.

Seriously though, I really hope you said that with tongue firmly in cheek or it's just insulting.

Not meant to be insulting SS.

I remember being a young kid and thinking summers were always long sunny affairs. I also remember having what I thought was the perfect curry at certain times.

100% BIR does not exist. Taste is subjective, so we will all have a different view on what constitutes a good curry.

If you are looking for that 90's curry you so enjoyed, you have to go back to the 90's. Your perception of those curries would be influenced by many things, including, but not limited to: your age, your mood, your health and so on.

BIR restaurants/takeaways can't always produce dishes that have that 100% flavour/aroma.

To answer Phil's original question How do you know when you are "there" ?, I think that if you can make a curry you'd have been happy to have been served in a restaurant, you are there.

Last week the Tesco delivery guy brought our groceries into the kitchen. He remarked in a Yorkshire accent , I think ' Can I smell curry'? Then went on to say that his dinner/tea was sorted tonight.

The point is that you may not think you have produced a BIR aroma, but you probably have to outsiders. But 100%.............doesn't exist.

[Secret Santa]

Ah well, I think I'll give up on this idea, then.  I have, over the past few weeks, collected almost 250ml of "spiced oil", so I shall use that to make today's base, I will then cook a lamb karahari and a chicken curry using it, and report back.

** Phil.

The only thing I'd say about that Phil is that, at least when I've tried it, the long cook of the base completely neutralises any benefit of spiced oil. So don't expect miracles.To get the real benefit it must be used to make the curries themselves (in my opinion and experience).

By the way, the spiced oil, by which I mean oil recovered from curries - is that what you mean? - is in itself a half-way-house towards this BIR old-oil we've been discussing, Which is probably why I rate its use when making curries so much.

[Peripatetic Phil]

Sigh.  And yes, "oil recovered from curries" is what I mean by "spiced oil".  But see below for a new idea ...

One of the things that strikes me about Pete's oil theory is that there are spices used in onion bhajis, pakoras, etc., that don't normally find their way into curries.  So, if we could identify these spices, and use them as a whole garam masala, we might be able to produce a reasonable approximation to what I will loosely call "bhaji oil".  Since I don't normally go in for making Indian snacks, I am going to have to rely on others to help me flesh out my list, but those that immediately come to mind are as follows :

• Ajwain
• Kaloonji
• Mustard seeds

What others can others think of ?

** Phil.

[livo]

This seems to have gone on two paths. Present and historical.  Secret Santa at first made a comment about the curry sauce being "his indicator" of being "there". This is a reasonable post in line with the thread topic, and I'm assuming that he meant now, and not pre-90's. What was available 3 or 4 decades ago is past. Talk about what we can and / or can't and will and / or wont do today.

At the top of Page 2 (reply #10), Pete quoted SS and made the comment about the secret to the sauce being the base gravy, which is not on this or any site, ie, now.  Hence my question to him about the "secret". Call it whatever you like, the Secret, the 5%, the last piece of the puzzle, that missing something, whatever. I thought Pete's post was suggesting he knew what it was and we all didn't so I pressed on it. That's how I read it but it may not have been what he meant.

If it has now simply come down to deep fryer oil, then I'd suggest that this information is on this site and others, contrary to Pete's original claim. 

When my family ran a Fish n chip shop decades ago, once the fryer oil had reached replacement time, the oldest oil was gone. New fresh oil went into the chip pre-fryer and all the other oil was moved along. The chip oil went into the fish pre-fryer, the pre-fryer oil became the finish fry oil and the expired finish fry oil was gone.  I understand that fishy infused oil becomes rank (manky) and is a different thing to used Indian spiced fry oil but I'm not sure I'd bother to use it.  I guess if I could obtain some I'd give it a try. I know a guy who cheffed IR. I'll ask him what he knows about oil reuse.

If reclaimed oil is all Pete was referring to, it's been done.  It is on this site an elsewhere. If not,???

[Secret Santa]

If reclaimed oil is all Pete was referring to, it's been done.  It is on this site an elsewhere. If not,???

I believe it originated on this site and others have copied it since ... this was long before anyone had access to real BIR kitchens. That's recovered oil from curries anyway. And I believe it was me who first suggested this all those many years ago, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

Pete's talking about reuse of the deep frying oil. No offence Livo but Pete knows what he's talking about and you're coming over rather negatively on this. His conjecture is simple ... he believes the "secret" is in the reuse of fried BIR oil in the base. I concur. OK? Clear?

[livo]

Not meaning to be negative or offensive or anything SS. I simply wanted to know what was meant by his comment, which inferred he knew something and we didn't. I don't doubt anybody else in their experience or knowledge.

[Secret Santa]

So, if we could identify these spices, and use them as a whole garam masala, we might be able to produce a reasonable approximation to what I will loosely call "bhaji oil".

You could do that but it's already been done. By CA for one, His version of spiced oil is on the forum somewhere. I basically ignored it because it doesn't encompass all that's needed.

But your focus here is too narrow Phil. Just as an example, the frying of all those poppadoms will inevitably result in a frying of the loose "flour" on the surface of the poppadom. It's a tiny amount but over a few hundred poppadoms it mounts up. Likewise for samosas. So you have an effect like gumbo where this frying of the flour significantly alters its flavour and thus that of the oil.

Do they deep fry gulab jamun in the same oil? Don't know. But if they do then fats, sugars and salt will react in a complex way adding another note.

Equally the frying of water containing items like bhajis, pakoras and chips will temper the oil adding another layer. And the Maillard reaction of the frying chips will add yet another note.

I could probably go on but the main point is that just frying a collection of spices won't cut it. It really, really has to be the actual articles; bhajis etc. I want to be positive and offer hope but I just can't see a simple way around it.

[Peripatetic Phil]

But your focus here is too narrow Phil. Just as an example, the frying of all those poppadoms will inevitably result in a frying of the loose "flour" on the surface of the poppadom. It's a tiny amount but over a few hundred poppadoms it mounts up. Likewise for samosas. So you have an effect like gumbo where this frying of the flour significantly alters its flavour and thus that of the oil.

I know, I know ...  But since I think that I am finally "there", I thought I'd try to go a bit further !
** Phil.

[livo]

It was always possible that I misunderstood pete's original post and I've said that previously.  As far as I'm now concerned, pete answered my initial question satisfactorily here.

I'm sorry if that was misleading
No,  I meant after countless recipes, I don't believe you can make a restaurant curry base at home.
I think the result is only obtainable by using seasoned bhajee oil and cooking on a very large scale
The aroma of a sample base, when heated, is the BIR aroma
You can't get that, with a home made base

I now believe he originally used the word "secret" in a general and broad sense, which was not intended to be interpreted literally. He may have said the key to success is in the Base Gravy.  I can understand how his claim of it "not being on this or any other site" is in direct reference to exact base gravy recipes on this or other sites.  I'm fine with his explanation here.   ;D  Written words on forums, and SMS messages are worse, can easily be misinterpreted and misunderstood without the nuance of spoken language.

However, there is still need for clarification here.  On the one hand, in order to produce "The Base Gravy" the fryer oil is essential. Fair enough. Yet I've now read that the long cook of the gravy neutralizes the oil and to achieve any benefit of "the flavor" it must be used in the cooking of the finished dish.  I'm not intending to be negative, condescending, patronizing or pedantic but we seem to be at 6's and 7's on this one.  In relation to Base Gravy, is the oil essential, or is it neutralized?