Topic: goncalo's BIR food diary

[Peripatetic Phil]

The 'real' BIR smell, as evidenced from a takeaway bag, is far more nuanced (and better).

Well, it would have to be, wouldn't it ?  At the very least that bag will contain essential oils from turmeric, chilli, coriander, and maybe several other spices, but the fenugreek element is most definitely there and is (I would suggest) a key element.  And as I also noted before, what I found very interesting is that my local convenience store owners neither stock ground fenugreek nor do they make any use of it in their authentic Indo-Pakistani/Bangladeshi cuisine; instead they use fenugreek leaves.

** Phil.

[goncalo]

That is an excellent tip. I suppose this will vary depending on the number/size of potatoes, size of pot and power of hob jets though? I will definitely play around with those settings though

Sorry Goncalo, I hadn't seen your follow up questions.

Yes, everything will always depend on your own settings.

Timings will vary depending primarily on the size and type of potatoes you will use, burner size, pot size and so on, even if you use salt in the water or not! Naturally smaller potato pieces will cook faster to 'doneness' that larger ones will. Just experiment a little till you find the right settings for you.

One more question, when it starts boiling and you start your counter for 6/7 minutes, do you lower the heat from the moment they start boiling?

Yes.

I bring water to the boil (sometimes if I'm in a hurry I boil water in a kettle first and use that, but it's better to boil from cold in the pan in my opinion) once it's boiling I add the chopped, rinsed (always worth rinsing chopped potatoes in cold water to get rid of possible starch) and strained potatoes to the water. The water will then go off the boil as the cold potatoes are added. I then add a pinch of salt and turmeric and then bring them back to the boil. As soon as they start boiling I drop to a simmer, put the lid on and start timing. As I mentioned, on my hob, 10 mins is usually done, so I simmer for about 6-7 mins.

Also, regarding maris pipers, I can't easily source them here in most super markets. I suppose potatoes is something we have in different varieties around here (I think the irish are known for their potatoes) but either they exist and aren't tagged as such, or there is no tag at all, which is more often than not the case.

Ahh okay. Well Ireland is the place for potatoes!

You want a floury type rather than waxy, but not so floury they disintegrate. I find Maris Pipers and King Edwards to be pretty good all round potatoes.

Just experiment till you find a variety you like really.

I never had the methi aloo, but I'm sort of curious. The aroma from methi used to make me feel pretty sick, but I think it's grown on me. Same for cumin, so I'll try it some time -- maybe the methi gosht that has been discussed recently

I love Aloo Methi, it's by far my favourite vegetable dish and I always ask for it in any Indian Restaurant I go to even if they don't have it on the menu - more often than not they just nod and up it comes. It's just another of those little tests, if they've never heard of it or don't know how to cook it, it's not a good sign!

In my opinion Methi/Fenugreek is probably the most important ingredient to capturing that BIR smell and taste. Just smell some ground fenugreek and compare that smell to the smell you get from inside an Indian Takeaway bag, both the smells are very close together.

Understanding Fenugreek in all its forms, seeds, ground, dried/fresh leaves is really key to achieving BIR flavour in my opinion.

Thanks for the lengthy reply spicey! I have already seen your methi aloo recipe, so the next thing is to give it a try. I finally found a way to order 10kg bags of maris pipers, but I've still fairly large supply by now.

Hi goncalo!

Regarding the Panch phoron, you could also try to mix your own, and reduce the amount of kalonji and methi seeds. Use equal parts, but just the half of that when it comes to these two ingredients. Personally, I love methi seeds (and the dried leaves, too), but too much of it can be slightly bitter for some people.

Pics look good (:

Thanks chonk. Could you just clarify why you recommended reducing the amount of kalonji? I think I used some of these in my naan dough and I did enjoy their taste, I could feel typical naan taste when adding them to the dough. So far I've been using east end panch phoron and it's decent, but I agree, it does tend towards the bitterness a little.

Thanks for clarifying!

[chonk]

Hi goncalo!

Hi goncalo!

Regarding the Panch phoron, you could also try to mix your own, and reduce the amount of kalonji and methi seeds. Use equal parts, but just the half of that when it comes to these two ingredients. Personally, I love methi seeds (and the dried leaves, too), but too much of it can be slightly bitter for some people.

Pics look good (:

Thanks chonk. Could you just clarify why you recommended reducing the amount of kalonji? I think I used some of these in my naan dough and I did enjoy their taste, I could feel typical naan taste when adding them to the dough. So far I've been using east end panch phoron and it's decent, but I agree, it does tend towards the bitterness a little.

Thanks for clarifying!

Love my naans with kalonji, too! (:

Kalonji seeds can taste slightly bitter too, so reducing their amount would adjust that (together with methi seeds) You could just reduce the methi seeds, and check out if that taste suits you. It comes down to personal preference, and some experiments, I guess (: Got this "recipe" from a book about traditional, punjabi family recipes (equal parts, but just the half of methi and kalonji seeds). Panch phoron is pretty easy to make right on the spot, and also in minimal amounts, so you could try to find your taste someday (:

[spiceyokooko]

Thanks for the lengthy reply spicey! I have already seen your methi aloo recipe, so the next thing is to give it a try. I finally found a way to order 10kg bags of maris pipers, but I've still fairly large supply by now.

Let me know how you get on with the Aloo Methi and I'm glad to hear you were able to source some Maris Piper Potatoes, I think you'll notice the difference in flavour and texture when cooking with them. Just make sure you store them in a nice cool, dark, dry place.

Could you just clarify why you recommended reducing the amount of kalonji? I think I used some of these in my naan dough and I did enjoy their taste, I could feel typical naan taste when adding them to the dough. So far I've been using east end panch phoron and it's decent, but I agree, it does tend towards the bitterness a little.

I think Chonk is assuming that you're mixing and grinding your own Panch Phoran from whole seeds, hence his suggestion that you might want to reduce the Kalonji and Fenugreek seeds in the mix. But it seems from what you've said here that you're using pre-ground East End brand Panch Phoran, so I can see why you might be confused at his suggestion of reducing the Kalonji seed component.

I would strongly endorse and support Chonk's suggestion of perhaps considering grinding your own Panch Phoran from whole seeds as you can then have full control over the resulting mixture of flavours.

I'm sure Chonk or myself can give you a Panch Phoran seed mixture starting point.

[Peripatetic Phil]

I would strongly endorse and support Chonk's suggestion of perhaps considering grinding your own Panch Phoran from whole seeds as you can then have full control over the resulting mixture of flavours.

Spicey, I have been using panch phoran for a considerable time, and have never used it or even encountered it, in ground form, nor have I previously seen any suggestion it should be used that way; in what dishes would you use it ground rather than whole ?

** Phil.

[spiceyokooko]

Spicey, I have been using panch phoran for a considerable time, and have never used it or even encountered it, in ground form, nor have I previously seen any suggestion it should be used that way; in what dishes would you use it ground rather than whole ?

Phil

Panch Phoran is simply a name given to a five spice mix, generally brown mustard seeds, kalonji, cumin, fennel and fenugreek it can be used in whole spice form (as you've been using) at the start of the dish or in ground form either as part of a masala to be fried at the beginning or later in the dish.

It's quite similar to Garam Masala in this sense, which can also be used in whole spice form (bay leaves, green cardamons, cassia, cloves and peppercorns) or as a ground mix.

There are no real hard and fast rules for using spices in cookery as after all we're only extracting the spice essential oils as flavouring components and these can come from spices in ground or whole form.

What you do and how you do it is entirely up to the individual, that's the beauty of Indian cookery.

[goncalo]

The one pack I have, is actually in seeds, like Phil, I too had never heard of ground panch phoron, at the end of the day, it's just another masala, thanks for the clarifications chonk and spicey!

I've just ordered a krups grinder to start grinding whole spices and making masalas that taste better than the ones from east-end/heera/natco/trs/rajah/etc.. 

[Peripatetic Phil]

Panch Phoran is simply a name given to a five spice mix, generally brown mustard seeds, kalonji, cumin, fennel and fenugreek it can be used in whole spice form (as you've been using) at the start of the dish or in ground form either as part of a masala to be fried at the beginning or later in the dish.

It's quite similar to Garam Masala in this sense, which can also be used in whole spice form (bay leaves, green cardamons, cassia, cloves and peppercorns) or as a ground mix.

Yes, I have encountered garam masala being used in both forms, but never panch phoran, so I was interested to learn in which dishes you would advocate its use in ground form.

** Phil.

[Malc.]

It has always been my understanding that Panch Phoran is used only as a whole seed mix and never ground with the ingredients always staying the same. Curious, I have just Googled this and came across several references suggesting the same, though the following mentions the mustard seed being replaced.

Here's an article on it: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-08-26/recipes/31312472_1_paanch-fenugreek-mustard

[Secret Santa]

...I have encountered garam masala being used in both forms, but never panch phoran, so I was interested to learn in which dishes you would advocate its use in ground form.

** Phil.

You'll find it in ground form as part of some generic curry powders Phil, along with the usual coriander, cumin, turmeric etc. Although it won't be called panch phoran then, it's just part of the mix.