Quote from: vinders on August 28, 2012, 05:26 PM
Dear all, [snip]

Welcome, Vinders : a truly worthwhile first post; I can see you being a great asset to our forum.
** Phil.

I had a balti chicken and pilau rice from Rafiq's (used to be Sheer Khan) in Liverpool St John's market for my lunch today.

For the first time I could definitely taste vinegar in this curry and I reckon it is from a Pataks product.
The curry tasted ok really but would have been nicer without the tarty vinegar taste.

Paul

Phil (and others) let's cut to the chase shall we?

I'm a consumate devil's advocate myself, but if you think that Patak's pastes play any part in a good BIR curry then you are in the wrong place.

To be explicit, so as to warrant no confusion, Patak's pates are to (authentic, glorious, tasty, aromatic) BIR curries what Pot Noodles are to fine Chinese dining.

They are, without a doubt, the most obnoxious, odious and rank fermentations to grace the name of BIR curries.

The problem, of course, is that the young turks know nothing else. BIR curries contaminated with this glop is standard fare to the new generation. But that doesn't make it right. And I'll be dipped in the combined washings of a thousand half-eaten bhoonas before I accede to this plague on the noble BIR flavour and aroma.

Phil, plainly and simply, Patak's pastes are for home cooks and lazy BIR restaurants. I'm disheartened that you appear to be defending their use in any form.

Quote from: Unclebuck on August 28, 2012, 07:38 PM
yeah your right CA i really need to get off the computa and get on a diet

Jesus UB, I didn't know you were aquainted with my sister!  ;D

Quote from: Secret Santa on August 28, 2012, 10:50 PM[long snip]

Santa, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do not doubt that others share your views.  To be honest, I shared them, until I discovered that so many recipes on this site seemed to require them. At that point, I re-thought my attitude, and decided that if others could see merit in them, it would be perverse of me to just pretend that they don't exist.  And as I said before, I am genuinely grateful that I did, because otherwise I would not have discovered Kashmiri Masala.

QuoteI'm disheartened that you appear to be defending their use in any form.

I am defending the right of CR0 members (including myself) to experiment with them and report their findings; unless we do this, then all judgement will be on hearsay rather than evidence, and we will all be the poorer for that.

** Phil.

Phil - out of curiosity, how is it that you're using the Kashmiri Masala beyond tikka?

Personally, I echo the sentiment of a previous poster on this topic that noted the use of Patak's is limited to tikka marinade and red masala (in CTM only). I've noticed over the last year or so, more dishes using small amounts of red masala, but not to the point that the introduction of Pataks materially affects the chef's ability to create a Madras or Vindaloo...

- Josh

Quote from: joshallen2k on August 29, 2012, 01:51 AM
Phil - out of curiosity, how is it that you're using the Kashmiri Masala beyond tikka?

I forget why I bought it in the first place (maybe from feedback/suggestions for improving Blade's Chicken Tikka ?  I don't know) but having bought it I wanted to find out what flavours it imparted, so I cooked some chicken livers using it :

https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8517.msg75397#msg75397

The results were out of this world; far far better than any Indian/Nepali chicken livers I have ever cooked before.  So, from that point on, I was addicted.  I now use Kashmiri Masala and Turmeric as the two spices in my stage-1 chicken preparation, and often (but not always) add the liquid in which they were cooked (oil, base, g/g paste) back into the main sauce when the latter is nearing completion.

** Phil.

Quote from: vinders on August 28, 2012, 05:26 PM
I can see that some of the members have been able to access restaurant and T-A kitchens and received some invaluable advice. But I guess we?re talking about a different generation of chefs. Given the traditional secrecy of chef disseminating their knowledge I wonder exactly how much of the old techniques have been passed down?

Welcome Vinders,

There are still old school chefs out there, though granted less and less these days. But my favourite restaurant the Indian Garden to which I have had access to the kitchen in the past, can boast that the brothers (proprietor and head chef) first open it's doors in the very early 70's and continue to provide first class curry to this day.

Every chance I get to talk 'shop' with them I do. Over the years I have understood to a small degree at least, why the 'secrets' have not been passed on. Several barriers exist translation being one of them. After gaining access to see an onion bhaji demo, it soon became obvious that to me that translation could account for many mistakes. Their knowledge of English names for certain spices etc. is very poor, so they tend to refer to things as closely as possible. For instance, I was told to use fennel when actually what I needed was aniseed, similar in flavour yes, but aniseed is superior. So had I used fennel, it would have resulted in a lesser dish, albeit marginal.

There other factors, trust is another one, it has taken me along time to build enough trust for me to pry into the workings of their kitchen, but i'm still working on it. Another explanation would be the younger generations. I know for a fact that the proprietor had intended to pass the restaurant onto his sons. Unfortunately they are not interested which means when he finally retires, the restaurant will be sold and the legacy that is the Indian Garden will be no more. No doubt it will be bought and run as an Indian restaurant, but it's very unlikely that it's chef will be from Bangladesh armed with age old recipes and techniques.

Another factor that should also be considered is the chef himself. Take the Shanaz which I visit on a regular basis, despite the fact the head chef and his protege having been cooking together since the 90's, there are differences between their dishes. The head chef instinctively cooks his dishes, whereas his understudy is cooking the same dishes, but to instruction. That's not to say the dishes are poor on the contrary, but you can detect slight differences in them.

Add all of this up and it's no surprise that the 70's curry has all but disappeared.

Quote from: Axe on August 29, 2012, 10:27 AM
Another explanation would be the younger generations. I know for a fact that the proprietor had intended to pass the restaurant onto his sons. Unfortunately they are not interested which means when he finally retires, the restaurant will be sold and the legacy that is the Indian Garden will be no more. No doubt it will be bought and run as an Indian restaurant, but it's very unlikely that it's chef will be from Bangladesh armed with age old recipes and techniques.

Axe, you must start saving your pennies /now/ : I can think of no more qualified future owner than your good self, and with any luck you can persuade the Chef to remain in post for another five years whilst you learn at his side ...

** Phil.