Quote from: Ashes on October 21, 2006, 10:53 AMNow whether its actually the oil that evaporates or whether its actually the oil hitching a ride on water droplets i dont know...Professional chefs never boil their stock.. all that steam carries flavour

Ashes

I'm very interested in your views and other folks' too.

But my understanding is a bit different. I don't believe much oil evaporates. That's why you can boil/simmer off water until the oil re-surfaces in Indian cooking.

Professional (western) chefs regularly boil their stocks/sauces (at the end) in order to get rid of surplus water and concentrate the flavour of what's left. That's my understanding, anyway. I've read it in books, seen it done on TV and concentrated the flavour of stocks and sauces like that, myself.

Regards
George

This does seem logical as with mostly Bir dishes you taste the hot Spicy Oil around your mouth but with supermarket dishes it is a different story, so Oil is a very big decider (Again!), but it does look, to get that sort of effect that you would use large amounts of Oil & therefore must be skimmed, but it looks like a very important thing about bir style cooking technique is knowing how to make it Oily but not too Oily, i seem to go one way or another when it comes to Oil quantity, much too learn have i  :-[ .

Many times i have seen a chef skim oil from a curry and put it into a ghee pot, many people have said that if you frying spice paste in oil then you'll know when it's ready as the oil comes to the surface, i think the same could be said for bir's, maybe thats how they know how to have it oily but not too oily.

Cheers John for that, need more input.
00011"The Taste"101101111011101010101001111100010110.
Looks like i will be in the Kitchen tomorrow morning before the missus gets up to cook the Roast.

Yes George i agree, i didnt mean it sound like it was a problem. The only problem ive experienced is when spices are too old, for some reason the taste disappears, i presume the oils evaporate, although if stored correctly i think whole spices can survive for up to 1 year? or maybe less. The shelf life of ground spices isnt very much, a few monthes i think?

As for stock, simmering is the only way ive been told to make stock, a good friend of mine showed me the basics of a fine french chicken stock, (he used to make fantastic stock). I used to add it to my Pat Chapman creations (15 yrs back) and it certainly improved them. 

The important thing with stock is to reduce the it down to a concerntrated liquid, it can then be strained (several times if so wished) and made into demi glace.

Personally i wouldnt add chicken stock to my curries as its the vegetable taste that makes the curry imo. Besides the base sauce is effectively a spicey vegetable stock.

Another point, someone said that they had bought base sauce and it had "the smell/taste", if this is true then its to do with spices and/or technique or maybe the base sauce was made with reclaimed oil. That would also help to get the taste off to a good start.

Regards Ashes

Yes Ashes, long and slow is the standard technique.  My UCB starts in megalitres and reduces to about a quarter.  Also if you are doing long and slow, don't bother to chop the ingredients small, lob them in in big chunks or dont chop them (Garlic). 

As you say, in Western cooking (of stocks) You never boil, especially chicken stock, always slow simmer. 

Maybe the point on oil evaporation is really to to with the airborne emulsion that rises from the pan.  I think kitchen walls, and filters provide that evidence

Happy cooking
CP

Quote from: Ashes on October 22, 2006, 10:53 AM
The important thing with stock is to reduce the it down to a concerntrated liquid, it can then be strained (several times if so wished) and made into demi glace.
Regards Ashes

Oooh DEMI GLACE Now we are talking I'm very impressed !
Ashes have you made these ?
Layne

Hi Ashes, yes grinding methods are still a great source of debate, and the debate rages in the coffee world also.  From the Indian perspective there are three methods of grinding, stone milled, burr milled, and smash milled.  The first is using two stones and rub the spices between them, the fine powder is gently blown of if need be.  The burr mill comprises two steel burred wheels or cones (similar to the pepper grinder in principle).  The gap is set to permit the particles to be ground to the size you want.  The smash grinder is your typical moulinex electric blade type.

What are the benefits?  Well the first two produce a better cooler process and therefore the flavours are not damaged and the result will be a finer more flavoursome spice powder.  However, the stone method is very slow and tasking, and the Spice Burr Mills cost a fortune and are very very expensive.  The third type is cheaper, quicker, but does quite a lot of damage to the spice grains as it heats the spice up through friction and it produces a different shape of grain that can produce the grittines Ashes mentions.  Years ago I was doing a Geology course and had to write an essay on the differences between and benefits of Desert and Sea sands.  Years later an Indian friend (and scientist) related the sands to spices for me.  If you need more info contact me but trust me this were smoothness lies.

Again Ashes is right in that you can test for grittiness to some degree with your fingers but it does depend on how sensitive your fingers are.  I would also add that sometimes you want the spices coarsley ground for slow release of flavours.

How so you stop grittiness then? Well first you must slow fry the spices on a very very low heat and you must not let them catch.  Also you can 'crack' the spices by adding an acidifier (see Spices in Hints & Tips).  And as Ashes points out, if you uses a Moulinex type of grinder, only grind by pulsing in short bursts so that the spice keeps somewhat cool.

Hope this  helps.  Maybe it shoud go in hints and tips if you are OK with it.

CP

Quote from: Chilli Prawn on October 22, 2006, 11:23 AM
Yes Ashes, long and slow is the standard technique...As you say, in Western cooking (of stocks) You never boil, especially chicken stock, always slow simmer.

I agree but you make it sound like I'm wrong and it's Ashes and you vs me!

I know I'm right and so are you. I'm tired or discussing it any more. Do whatever works for you!

Regards
George

Thanks CP i suspected you knew a bit about spices ;D

Layne, nope ive never done demi glace    but it tastes amazing, usually alcohol is reserved for drinking purposes only ;D but Pat Chapman suggested wine could be used instead of stock in his quick curry book.. i have never tried this and doubt i ever will..I respect PC for his knowledge and experience and his pioneering in the curry world but i have never tasted a PC curry that is like  typical BIR.. although i have done some mighty tasted dishes from some of his books.. My favourite is "Favourite Restaurant Curries" thats the second book.. its got a wealth of information but not about how to create the BIR flavour we are all after. The recipes can always be adapted to the tecniques we already use..

Regards Ashes