Topic: Question about "The taste" or "the smell".

[Ashes]

Im not against you George, ive actually made some very good stock from boiling, it works!! So i know youre right, the techniques i was taught by a friend and have read about by professionals have been different. As you said "whatever works for you" is definately the right approach. In the end its all academic, very few folks here even use stock and i dont believe its used much in BIR cooking.. more likey Akhni stock or Yakhni is used..  ive tried this and it hasnt improved my dishes.

I value your input George, you always have something interesting to say and youre never too scared to disagree with someone or ask questions if its not totally clear.

Anyway, lets get back to more important stuff like where do i buy a packet of secret ingredient  ;D

Kind Regards Ashes

[Chilli Prawn]

That goes for me too (Ashes reply) George, this is certainly not about ganging up or having a go at anyone; it is about healthy friendly debate though.  You are correct, as there isn't any absolute approach.  Cooks are taught at college about the basics, essentials, techniques and so on.  If that were gospel the we would be eating boring food with no change.  So the point is what works for you is fine and creative; that is where the good cooks come from - it is because they accept a challenge, they have a baseline, and off theu go on their adventute, Blumenthal is the exception.; not the book or college!  But what you have read in books, seen on TV or have been taught by Chef friends is all grist to the mill and creates your baseline. 

I have and treasure a professional cookery book given to me by my father called the Great Scandenavian Cook Book, known colloquially as the Chef's Bible, written by various famous Scandanavian Chefs.  This contains the reference baseline for all cooking for professional chef's.  I rarely use any recipes from it, but I doo use modified versions once I have an idea of what is supposed to happen and what result I am expected to obtain.  See what I mean.  That is why I call myself a cook not a Chef!

Trust in your Trip!

All the best George, your input is most welcome and informative
CP

[Woks Up]

....noooooooooooowww a group hug??....anybody??  ;D

[Ashes]

Cool post 

[George]

Ashes and CP

Thank you for your kind words. Like my view of most of the members here, I have the greatest respect for your valuable inputs. Yes, this is just a friendly debate from my point of view; not an argument at all.

To clarify - everything I've ever read says not to boil stock when you're making it - just simmer it gently. But then chefs seem to cut and run at the end when they boil it like crazy to increase the concentration of flavour of the little bit of liquid that's left.

I think the key difference is that the simmering stage is whilst the meat/veg are in the mix. Next, the (relatively dilute) stock is passed through a sieve to remove as much solid matter as possible. Then, I assume, it does no harm to boil away, to concentrate what's left.

Regards
George

[Chilli Prawn]

Hi George and all.  I was up doing my DIY things (to get some browny points for beers)  and I suddenly realise why we had this conflict (I mean that in a nice debate way).  Lets use chicken stock as an example.  the reason you resist boiling stocks is that if you do they go cloudy and it is very difficult to clear them, which most western chefs demand for their sauces, Jus, Demi Clace etc.  I was taught to put the carcasses in a pan, cover with water, season, put in herbs, onions or whatever is required and bring rapidly to the boil, and then reduce to a minimum heat.  During this time you add more water as required.  Now, at the end of this process, and this is where the mix-up may lie, you remove all the ingredients from the water stock and pass the liquid through muslin, or a fine conical sieve or Chinois Sieve until you get a clear liquid.  Then, if you need to reduce the stock you bring it to the boil until has reduced to your requirements.  I have been chatting to my son who is a long trained professional chef and he agrees.  So George, Ashes et al, none of you are wrong, and I suspect that for curries it doesn't really matter (I don't use stock only Akhni if I need to).  While on Chicken stock, another reason for not boiling in the early stages is because this stock has a tendency to go bitter, I do not know why, I was just taught it.

If you want to make a richer stock and reduce the risk of cloudiness, roast the bones first.  But be aware that this stock can dominate your dish with its flavour.

Hope this clears things up
CP

[Chilli Prawn]

Ashes and CP

Thank you for your kind words. Like my view of most of the members here, I have the greatest respect for your valuable inputs. Yes, this is just a friendly debate from my point of view; not an argument at all.

To clarify - everything I've ever read says not to boil stock when you're making it - just simmer it gently. But then chefs seem to cut and run at the end when they boil it like crazy to increase the concentration of flavour of the little bit of liquid that's left.

I think the key difference is that the simmering stage is whilst the meat/veg are in the mix. Next, the (relatively dilute) stock is passed through a sieve to remove as much solid matter as possible. Then, I assume, it does no harm to boil away, to concentrate what's left.

Regards
George

Sorry George, your post came in while I was writing mine up.  So we are talking the same language.  In your second paragraph; if you have been watching TV chefs as I often do (yawn), yes they do cut corners.  But you may be confusing the deglazing or reduction processes with stock making.  Deglazing is usually done with wine or some sort of alcohol, but sometimes clarified stock.  Reduction is that final process to produce the final stock, and this requires boiling  as you quite rightly say.

Voila
CP

[DARTHPHALL]

And i hope you all take stock    of all this information.

[Ashes]

I didnt realised this, George was right.. about boiling, i always assumed it was because the more steam you produce the more flavour you lose (although as i said i have produced fine stocks with boiling). Cloudiness doesnt matter so much if you are making a sauce with say bruri mani ( or whatever the spelling is) style? a technique where you melt butter and add flour to make a thickening agent. A technique that the "old" masters used which isnt so popular anymore  .. but sure works well.

Talking of making stock here is what Anthony Bourdain has to say about making dark stock:

"Take as many veal bones as you can fit into your largest heavy-bottomed pot or pots, wash them in cold water and dry them. If you want to cheat , as many of us do, throw a wad of tomato paste on top of the bones, sprinkle a handful of flour over them and mix through.

place the roasting pan in a preheated 350 f / 180 c oven ... avoid burning..etc etc

Stock has a place in the right dish.. it can improve a dish (including) a curry no end, but it wont produce a BIR style curry - because I dont believe that western style stocks are used in typical BIR cooking. Pat Chapman said in one of his books.. the water in which the meat is cooked in, is "incredibly", thrown away (unquote)

Curry sauce (on the whole) is a vegetable dish, a very good one too, but it wont have meat stock in it unless the chef wants it to 

Ashes

[Chilli Prawn]

Well said

CP