Topic: On That ?Restaurant Taste? and ?Secret Ingredients?

[Fat Les (Banned for removing own posts!)]

Hi all,

I?ve only recently discovered this fantastic site!  I?ve read many of the threads and I see that there are some great ideas, and some fanatical curry cooks, here!  I wish I?d found the site sooner! 

For better or for worse, I thought I?d throw in my two-pennies worth regarding that elusive ?Indian restaurant taste? and the use of ?secret ingredients?.  This is a summary of my views formed over about twenty years of trying (and miserably failing, no doubt!) to replicate those brilliant British Indian Restaurant curries. 

Firstly, I think it is reasonable to presume that Indian restaurants are businesses, need to make a profit, and therefore need to make curries as quickly and as cheaply as possible. To achieve this, I believe that they primarily use:

a)   Pre-ground spices (and spice combinations) - not freshly roasted and ground whole spices (however appealing this may sound)
b)   Pre-made spice pastes
c)   Pre-pureed garlic and ginger pastes
d)   Cheap oils (eg; vegetable oil), not expensive oil (eg; olive oil), with limited use of ghee (eg; on naan breads)

For simplicity, I believe that they will also primarily use a limited number of vegetables and spices.  I suggest primary ingredients include:

a)   Onions, garlic and ginger (fresh or pre-pureed pastes)
b)   Curry powders and curry pastes
c)   Tomato paste and puree
d)   Tumeric, cumin, coriander, paprika, chilli and garlic powders
e)   Garam masala

Other key ingredients probably/may include:

a)   Carrots and red and green peppers
b)   Fresh coriander (stalks and leaves) and chillis
c)   Dry fenugreek leaves (imparts a ?savoury? smell and taste)
d)   Yoghurt and cream
e)   Creamed coconut and ground nuts
f)   Lemon juice
g)   Sugar and salt

Minor ingredients probably include cardamom seeds, cumin seeds, whole cloves, cassia bark, star anise, etc.

I believe that the elusive ?Restaurant Taste? is primarily obtained by the combination of ingredients, techniques and (large) scale cooking methods used, rather than from the use of any fancy ?secret? ingredients.  Some of the more important factors (which are sometimes difficult to replicate at home), which I believe are important, are:

a)   Using a large, pre-prepared, pot of mildly spiced curry base sauce/gravy ? cooked slowly (over several hours) 
b)   Slowly cooking the onions (over several hours) to impart sweetness to the base sauce/gravy (and to avoid bitterness)
c)   Browning the garlic to impart smokiness to the food (unless it is burnt, in which case it will impart bitterness!)
d)   Using well-used (blackened) karahis to impart a smokiness to the food  (similar to Chinese cooking eg; special fried rice)
e)   Using very high cooking temperatures to sear ? but not burn - the spices and food.  Also imparts a smokiness to the food, again similar to Chinese cooking)
f)   Similarly, the use of tandoori ovens to achieve the same effect with tikkas, tandooris and naan breads.
g)   Using copious amounts of cooking oil
h)   Decanting and re-using cooking oils in other dishes
i)   Using a mildly spiced stock (?yakhni?)
j)   Avoiding burning spices (which will cause bitterness)

Well, I?m sure you guys probably already know this stuff?.or vehemently disagree with most of it!  Not to worry though, I hope it?s helpful to someone and I?d be interested in your views either way!

[DARTHPHALL]

Great post mate,it has everything  .

[curryqueen]

Hi,  I believe Pat Chapman has a recipe for Akini  (stock) in one of his books  Not that I'm a fan.  You have very thoroughly thought of almost everything.  What are your fave dishes then and well done for the post!

[Ashes]

Great post Les, Id agree with all or most of that, i wonder if part of the special taste is some bottled or packet spice mix.. This might also explain why no India restaurant worker has manage to part with the secret for cash.They might not even know the secret themselves.

I remember trying a  Korai dish which had a really really great flavour, nothing like ive tasted before... i realised what they had done (in part)! They had cooked the dish on a very high heat and mixed in lime chuckney, that wasnt all, but thats as far as id managed to work out.. and the spicing was subtle, where as i can usually taste dominate spices, i couldnt recognise these spices combinations. Spice mixes have a simular effect, the combination of spices produces a unique taste which is hard to duplicate because your not quite sure what your aiming at

I know that some restaurants like to throw in the tandoori leftovers, im sure they use a packet mix, yogurt but what makes the tandoori dish special is the tandoor... possibly some of the burnt flavour comes from there? Or a by product of a certain spice mix cooked in a tandoor. The tandoor wouldnt just have chicken but possibly other meats which might add to "the taste".

Some ppl have suggested that in some restaurants "the taste" isnt there and some days it is. This could explain how chefs differ in their techniques  ie maybe some chefs dont add left overs to their base sauce while some do, or maybe some use a slower or better technique , but id be surprised if 2 chefs use different spices, as the owner would want a consistent product and buy in the spices he needs for the week. Could also be that as a fresh batch of base sauce doesnt taste as good as one thats been left over night.

Consider this, given enough monkeys and enough spices and unlimited amount of time we should be able to recreate all the world best restaurant curry dishes in the end

[chillidoggy]

Nice one, Les.

Yup, I'd agree with you that sometimes you get a iffy one and sometimes you get a absolute stonker, as if to restore your faith in BIR's.

To illustrate the point, I had one of the best takeaway Dhansak's ever at my local.  A week later I had a takeaway and it was disappointing.  Went for a sit-down the next week and it was superb.  You just can't rely on it in my experience.

[extrahotchillie]

Good point, however, on this site we try to achieve the perfect curry and perfect taste I believe that most of has achieved this; look at CK recent pics of his creations certainly welcome on any menu, just the pics alone; but if I had a choice I personally would rather CK cooked a meal for me than any restaurant that alone says the we have surpassed the BIR restaurant or takeaway by miles; Ive said it before and  I will say it again we can and do make better meals, just an old cliche "CURRY ON" I'm enjoying this site more and more each day. And keep posting, especially the pics and if someone asks for the recipe do the decent thing and post it.

[Yousef]

Brilliant post Fat Les,

I am totally in agreement regarding the business aspects, most restaurant operations take the raw cost of the dish then add 60% to get the selling price, therefore we must assume only the most basic cheapy ingredients go into a curry.  We all know how much a batch of base sauce costs at home to make....hardly anything.

Extrahotchilli

Ive said it before and  I will say it again we can and do make better meals

I have made ones i consider close but in all honesty i am not there yet.

Stew

[extrahotchillie]

Stew
Just think for a mo, if you was there would you really believe that you had achieved it, probably not. The point I am trying to make is there are a hell of a lot of seriously bad BIR and takeaways out there just jumping on the band wagon, you have to go a long way these days to get a decent curry.

Very often we go out for a meal but I always as probably we all do, end up comparing them to my curries and quite frankly there ain't a lot in it, very often I have felt that I have made better.

I cooked a CTM for a mate of mine and he said it tastes just like the BIR "used" to make what ever happened to them; for me that was a great compliment. I can only speak for myself but I'm nearly always left a little disappointed with their efforts, maybe I should try something else on the menu and cook the curries myself.

I haven't lost faith in your average BIR and takeaways; I have lost "all faith" in them, perhaps a few of them will stumble across this site and get their act together; probably not though, they are too busy lining their pockets and driving around in flash cars at our expenses.

[George]

...there are a hell of a lot of seriously bad BIR and takeaways out there just jumping on the band wagon, you have to go a long way these days to get a decent curry...I'm nearly always left a little disappointed with their efforts, maybe I should try something else on the menu and cook the curries myself.

I agree with you. The good BIRs are becoming increasingly hard to find. Most places dish up stuff which isn't half as good as supermarket (chilled food) curries, in my opinion, but at about twice the price.

When anyone comes across a worthwhile BIR, please be sure to list it under the 'reviews' section.

Regards
George

[pH]

I agree with you. The good BIRs are becoming increasingly hard to find. Most places dish up stuff which isn't half as good as supermarket (chilled food) curries, in my opinion, but at about twice the price.

I haven't had anything from a supermarket that could even be mistaken for a bad take-away curry!  What fresh supermarket curries do you think are as good/better than an Indian  restaurant's ?