Topic: Lessons in curry failings

[chillihothot]

Somewhere in my head there is my dream curry, I've eaten it before but I can't remember where, but its somewhere when I was a lot younger. Because I wasn't into cooking when I was younger I never made a note of it. What memories I do have apart from having a light head from a few cobras is that the there was this perfect balance and synergy of smell, texture and aroma. Smooth - yes, Vibrant - yes, Tangy - sometimes, Aromatic - definately. I've been working backwards from this memory.

Originally I was seeking out that vibrant taste, so I really piled in the spices, and I got vibrant but also a bit unsettling and raw and overwhelming. Overcompensation was easy to do because it seemed logical, a real blast to the palate.

Seeking a more older, mature taste (bit still vibrant) I finally added less spice and the savouriness came through. I had been thinking about spice in the wrong way, its not the only driver for flavour.

To acheive tang I add in cold fresh lemon juice at the last minute. This worked well for me. But again, lessons to learn when to use it, as appropriate. In seeking my dream curry, and trying to combine all these attributes my curry identity had become confused.

And also I still felt it was still a bit "raw", so I decided to cook my base for an extra hour, and let it settle, to get the smoothness. Maybe I should let it cook all day, and then let it rest till room temperature.

So far this is where I'm at: seeking that refined, smooth aspect. If I can get this right, I'm very very close to that elusive curry.

[Peripatetic Phil]

All makes perfect sense to me except for this part :

And also I still felt it was still a bit "raw", so I decided to cook my base for an extra hour, and let it settle, to get the smoothness. Maybe I should let it cook all day, and then let it rest till room temperature.

Unless your base is already highly spiced, I cannot see how that will contribute; if your base is mainly onion, garlic, ginger, water, oil, salt, with perhaps a light spicing of turmeric and paprika, I cannot see how the rawness might be coming from the base. I suspect it may be more to do with your technique for cooking the main course : if, for whatever reason, the spices are not being fully cooked in that, then I can envisage a raw element in the final dish.  Does this make sense, or have I misunderstood your use of "raw" ?

** Phil.

[chillihothot]

My curry base is all those plus tinned tomatos, and those big red dried chillis. I think its Taz's base (not entirely sure)?

I'm very fond of the base actually, but in the finished curry theres that aged-ness missing, it tastes...too fresh, but not in a good way more in a immature way.

I tend to only cook base for an hour, so I'm thinking maybe 3 hours and let it cool through to settle, before freezing.

Thoughts? Similar problems?

[Peripatetic Phil]

My curry base is all those plus tinned tomatos, and those big red dried chillis. I think its Taz's base (not entirely sure)?

Yes, sorry, the tomatoes were an accidental omission.  Big red dried chillies ?  A bit risky, IMHO : what if you want to use the base for something that shouldn't be too hot ?  Taz base ?  Not sure.  If it is, the following is definitely relevant :

Put all ingredients except Tinned Tomatoes in pan,
Bring to the boil, with lid on, and gently boil for 1 hour,
Then add the Tomatoes and simmer for about 15 minutes,
Allow to cool a little and blend until smooth, add more water at the end of blending to get that soup-like consistency.
Once blended, bring back to the boil and simmer, and when some oil becomes visible floating on the surface of the base, the base is ready,

Note that last step : the 1H15 is by way of preparation; the base isn't ready until the oil has come out (no idea how long this might take, but clearly an important step, just as it is in the final cooking of the curry -- until the oil has come out, the curry isn't ready, which is why I have been known to remove the chicken before the end, so as not to overcook it while waiting for the sauce to mature).

** Phil.

[DalPuri]

I understand what youre saying chillihothot.
I've had a similar experience.

Interesting results.
The other week when i cooked for the party of 15, i had made a double portion of chewys base.
Cooked 2 lots of the 3 hour base, then combined (with a friends pot)as i havent got a large enough stockpot.
It was the first time i was using a base fresh rather than from frozen.
When i was cooking up the curries at the party i had the base simmering away with people coming up for a chat.
I was feeling quite disheartened and saying, "I'm not happy, the base smells too fresh and too raw".

All the resultant curries were delicious in the end and i had nothing to worry about.

 So,,,, does it mature in the freezer>??
Does the aroma change when cooked from frozen, as this longer c2g cook does?

Cheers, Frank.

check this out too.

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8712.msg77713#msg77713

Cheers, Frank. 

[chillihothot]

Phil, I shall try step 5 as suggested, which I have missed out actually. As far as adding in those dried chillis I've done with/without and this certainly improves the flavour, as long as I don't add too much.

Frank, are you suggesting that leaving the base to sit for a while to mature, improves the flavour? Can I conclude that from your experiments?

So I think the plan of action is:
1) cook it for longer, again, after cooking, until oil comes through.
2) following #1 let it cool and rest at room temperature, preferably for at least half a day before freezing.

[976bar]

My curry base is all those plus tinned tomatos, and those big red dried chillis. I think its Taz's base (not entirely sure)?

I'm very fond of the base actually, but in the finished curry theres that aged-ness missing, it tastes...too fresh, but not in a good way more in a immature way.

I tend to only cook base for an hour, so I'm thinking maybe 3 hours and let it cool through to settle, before freezing.

Thoughts? Similar problems?

Taz's base does not use dried red chilies. I make gallons of this stuff at the Uni and have now got the ideal base I want for all the curries there.

The rawness you are getting is (I believe) not cooking the spices thoroughly before adding other ingredients. There is a difference of opinion on this forum of whether to add the diluted tomato puree/paste before adding the spices or after.

I definitely choose the latter, so oil, G&G (unless you are cooking onions/peppers etc, which you would soften through first) then the spice mix and chili powder, (if you want you can add any further spices/leaves later on, but I feel that the spice mix and chili powder needs to be cooked through prior to adding the tomato puree/paste.

You'll know when you have it right, because when you add the tomato paste, and stir it in the spice mix, the aroma of the spice mix & chili will hit the back of your throat and make you cough and your eyes will water, if you don't get this then I don't think you have cooked the spices quite long enough. They should just be on the point of singeing and to get this right you will need to cook quite a few curries in order to achieve the rightness (if that is the right word to use) prior to adding the tomato paste/puree.

The mixture should then produce quite a lot of steam/smoke as the tomato paste/puree briefly cools the spice mixture and then starts to heat rapidly and will then burn the spices as it gathers heat, so have a good ladle of base ready to add about 30 seconds after adding the tomato paste/puree.

If your base is correct, you will notice that the base will sit there in the mixture as a big yellow puddle and will not/should not blend in until stirred into the mixture. You should then notice a change in colour, the mixture will stop spitting at you momentarily until the water evaporates, then you'll notice little puddles/droplets of oil coming through which will probably be a reddish colour, stir once again then add some more base and continue to cook through until the above appears again, by which you add another ladle of base.

At this stage you can add the pre-cooked meat/chicken veggies or whatever you are using and start warming that through. Add more base as required to your consistency.

This should get rid of that rawness that you are experiencing.

Also if using tomatoes, the seeds can produce a bitter taste, so consider either removing them or adding a sweetening agent to compensate.. Personally, I do not like the sweeter curries and remove the inner parts of the tomatoes before adding to the dish..

Hope this helps

[chillihothot]

Interesting, thankyou. Spices are most certainly cooked (fried, but not burned) before adding any puree.
The base recipe I got from a Taz mod (the rick stein one I believe). Having tried other bases this one was the one I enjoy the most.

What I 'm experiencing isnt a "rawness" as such, but like Phil says, that lack of maturity/smoothness.

Don't get me wrong I'm very happy with where I'm at by and large, its more about the finer tuning now that gets really tricky.

[976bar]

Interesting, thankyou. Spices are most certainly cooked (fried, but not burned) before adding any puree.
The base recipe I got from a Taz mod (the rick stein one I believe). Having tried other bases this one was the one I enjoy the most.

What I 'm experiencing isnt a "rawness" as such, but like Phil says, that lack of maturity/smoothness.

Don't get me wrong I'm very happy with where I'm at by and large, its more about the finer tuning now that gets really tricky.

Ok, but I am failing to understand here, how Rick Stein has inspired you to a BIR base somehow.... maybe I have missed something from the cooker of Fish.....

[DalPuri]

Frank, are you suggesting that leaving the base to sit for a while to mature, improves the flavour? Can I conclude that from your experiments?

Conclusive!

Something else i noticed on the last base i made was that the oil didnt come readily until i added the right amount of water i.e. it wouldn't release until it was thin enough.
The base made 24 good portions (350ml) and there was probably the same amount of oil as i usually make with half that amount of gravy.