Bhuna and Vindaloo - Why do these not live up to expectation

[JerryM]

Secret Santa and myself i think struggle on a couple of CR0 recipe dishes - these being Bhuna & Vindaloo.

the problem is that although the recipes on the site (which include pukka BIR) are very good they don't deliver the taste that i've grown up on. we can if needed put it down to a regional thing - my interest is in finding why as it could be useful in our overall pursuit of BIR.

taking the bhuna 1st. i've listed this from CA's post https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5141.msg50188#msg50188

There are several recipes, in the Bhuna/Bhoona/ section of the forum, that claim to be derived directly from BIRs, including:

* Dipuraja's Chicken Tikka Bhoona
* Dipuraja's Bhoona Prawn Puri
* Panpot's Ashoka Karahi Bhuna
* Panpot's Ashoka Chicken Bhuna
* Haldi's Vegetable Bhuna
* Woks Up's Bhoona Prawn Puri
* CK's Lamb Bhuna

For instance, they all contain:

* vegetable oil
* curry base
* garlic ginger paste
* tomato paste
* onion and pepper
* spice mix
* meat and various other ingredients
* all cooked, in a similar manner, to a dryish sauce

it would be interesting to get others thought's on where the difference is. my best guess  is that the difference is down to purely how the onion is dealt with. this dish originates very much from traditional indian which rely much more on caramelising than BIR.

in short i think we need to add caramelised onion perhaps in conjunction with pre cook chopped onion to produce a different slant to the existing CR0 recipes.

[JerryM]

Vindaloo fits into the same sort of boat for me as Bhuna.

the starting point for me is that the dishes i've been brought up on are not a Hot Madras. they are a completely separate dish in their own right.

the key differences being less tomato puree and a dark dish with a faint tint of greenish colour.

i am convinced that green chilli paste plays a crucial role in this darker version to produce the lip burn sensation and the vastness of the depth of taste in the dish. hence my recent interest in green chilli from the bottle.

i am also convinced that a "sauce" is needed to produce the depth of taste that just can't be delivered from a spice mix. the nearest i've got is the Ashoka South Indian Garlic sauce https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3908.msg35388;topicseen#msg35388. i feel i still need to work at it.

again it would be interesting to hear thoughts of the members as with always the odd little basic thought may be the gem to stake a step forward.

[Razor]

Jerry,

I totally get where your coming from with this thread but I would like to ask;  Have you or anybody else, ever cooked these dishes for family and friends (who are really into their curries) and if so, what were their thoughts on your dish?

I think what I'm getting at is, I don't think that we are best suited to judge our own dishes.

I had a curry party a couple of weeks back, whereby I made them, Madras, Bhuna and CTM, along with a load of starters.

My sister, couldn't believe how good my CTM was, and trust me, if she said it was good, it must have been.  She would rather pull her own teeth than give me any kind of compliment, the witch!

My bhuna was the star of the show, it was the one that went first, followed by the CTM, leaving just the Madras to me and my mate, fat Paul.

Now I'm not really into Bhuna, and can't say that I've ever ordered one in a restaurant but it is the only dish that my Bro in law ever eats.  He actually said that it was the best Bhuna that he'd ever had and he is in his late 40's and been eating bhunas for as long as he can remember, again, some compliment!

I tasted it, and didn't think that it was anything special, and that's my point.  I don't think that we are in a great position to judge our own dishes.  Yes, we can easily publish our recipes on here for members to replicate at home, but unless it has been cooked by the recipe provider, it's not really a fair reflection on how the dish should taste, as I'm sure that JB can confirm with his "restaurant lessons"?

This kind of throws us back to Georges "come dine with me" idea, which is a crying shame that it never actually come to fruition.  That for me, would be the real acid test.  A regional take on a particular dish, cooked by someone from that region and tasted by people from that region, only then, could our dishes be truly assessed and be compared to the actually BIR version of that region!

It's a great concept Jerry, and I'm not knocking you in you pursuit of excellence, I just fear that we will never have a conclusion to this.

Ray

[George]

This kind of throws us back to Georges "come dine with me" idea, which is a crying shame that it never actually come to fruition.  That for me, would be the real acid test.  A regional take on a particular dish, cooked by someone from that region and tasted by people from that region, only then, could our dishes be truly assessed and be compared to the actually BIR version of that region!

I just read your post here after I'd mentioned Come Dine again on another thread. Yes, it would be an 'acid test'. I'd be very surprised if all your guests are wrong and you can't make cracking good curries which ARE as good as any BIR.

[Razor]

Correct George,

Let others judge our dishes, we shouldn't.  Unless you are a proper smug bugger, you will always rate your own dish poorly, or at least, below par in comparision to the real deal.

Ray

[Secret Santa]

Now I'm not really into Bhuna, and can't say that I've ever ordered one in a restaurant but it is the only dish that my Bro in law ever eats.  He actually said that it was the best Bhuna that he'd ever had and he is in his late 40's and been eating bhunas for as long as he can remember, again, some compliment!

I tasted it, and didn't think that it was anything special, and that's my point.

To me Ray that just demonstrates that you have never had a proper bhuna. When you have one there is no mistaking it. You couldn't conceivably say that it was nothing special.

Your brother in law proclaiming it as the best ever is weird then isn't it?

Is this your own recipe or is it the Kushi version?

[George]

To me Ray that just demonstrates that you have never had a proper bhuna. When you have one there is no mistaking it. You couldn't conceivably say that it was nothing special.

You might be right or wrong. How can anyone ever say without a tasting session, ideally featuring a pucka BIR Bhuna which you say is as good as it gets, as our reference point. If some of us got together at a dinner party, we would at least be able to talk about the flavour of dishes on the table, so we know we're all talking about the same thing. Without any form of group tasting session (calibration), I fear we're destined to be going round in  circles for ever. As for me, I've never had a bhuna, so I can't offer an opinion.

[jamieb728]

Hi

Would you agree that age has a part to play in all of this I'm 32 and have been eating bir curries for about 15 years so i guess my first taste of a bhuna could be different to that of someone who started in the  70's and 80's as changing  styles, ingredients and shortcuts have been introduced over the years.
I suppose what i mean is that the recipes on here are close to as good as to days bir curries but some of the older members who ate them in the 70's and 80's may have a different perception of what a bhuna should taste like to what i and others may think they should taste like. But that's what its all about different opinions makes the curry world go round.

Jamie

[Razor]

SS,

I totally agree, I can't, in all honesty, say that I've ever had a proper BIR bhuna, good or bad.

As for my bro in law, it's all he's ever ate.  He doesn't like hot curries, can't stand creamy ones either, so Bhuna fit's the bill, at least it does for him.

He says that mine was the best he's ever tasted, I can't agree with him, nor disagree, I've never really tasted one.  I have to trust his judgment.  The fact that this was the first to disappear at my curry party, suggest that one or two agreed with him.  Or, the other curries that I'd done, could have been utter trash   When I say that it was nothing special, what I should have said was, that it doesn't stand out anymore than say, My Madras, Dupiaza or Jal Frezi. 

My wife, who by her own addmission, is not a massive curry lover, won't eat anything other than my Veg Bhuna, when it comes to curry night.  She absolutely, flat refuses to have one delivered form anywhere, and she pulls her kite, when I suggest going for an Indian meal.

I've tasted it, and I don't like it but then again, I'm not a veg lover, hence my lack of interest in topics on Saag Aloo or Bombay potato
You never know, I just may have stumbled upon this taste by accident.

Is this your own recipe or is it the Kushi version?

No, this is all mine, with a bit from here and a bit from there, like ya do ;D

Ray

[George]

Would you agree that age has a part to play in all of this

I'm sure age does play a part but I'd make two suggestions:

1. I believe memories can become blurred. Can anyone really recall the exact nuances of flavour from a curry in the 1970s, even if they're old enough to have been visiting curry houses back then?

2. There's no doubt in my mind that I've had recent meals at BIRs which are at least as good and tasty as anything I had decades ago. Even if the flavours are not identical, the end result is at least as good for my taste.