Topic: Razor's Curry Base

[Peripatetic Phil]

So we know they used spices then, But can you remember any of them? Ones that you personally bought.

Sadly, no.  But remember I was /incredibly/ naive then.  I thought (as most British people thought) that you made a curry with curry powder.  It was only after 1970, when I started travelling to Birmingham, that I also started using more than just curry powder (but with just as appalling results !).  I am fairly certain I would have been using E P Veerasawmy as my guide, so if it features in "Indian Cookery" (i.e., the book of that name), I would have tried to buy it.  And I would have been influenced by Rosemary Brissenden's "South East Asian Food", given to me as a present in 1970.  She was (of course) writing for the Australian market -- far closer to the "lands of spice" -- so her text cannot be taken as indicative of what was available over here, but E P Veerasawmy is pretty reliable, IMHO.

** Phil.

[Razor]

Hi Phil,

To be fair, I've always thought that spices would have been available back then but at what cost, is possibly what I'm getting at? Like today, I can't see many BIR selling a dish that actually contains saffron purely down to the expense!  So, from a commercial aspect, would the BIR's have included some of the well known spices that we enjoy today, if it would of hiked up the price?  If they didn't include them, then I wonder what they used instead?  Curry powder would have been my first thought like HS suggest but would that have been it, chilli powder and curry powder?

Ray

[Peripatetic Phil]

To be fair, I've always thought that spices would have been available back then but at what cost, is possibly what I'm getting at? Like today, I can't see many BIR selling a dish that actually contains saffron purely down to the expense!  So, from a commercial aspect, would the BIR's have included some of the well known spices that we enjoy today, if it would of hiked up the price?  If they didn't include them, then I wonder what they used instead?  Curry powder would have been my first thought like HS suggest but would that have been it, chilli powder and curry powder?

I am unconvinced, solely on the basis of logic.  The first BIRs opened for the benefit of people from the sub-continent, and they would not have been backward in coming forward if they thought that the curries were cr@p.  But I /am/ going to conduct  an experiment : CA's base, g/g paste, and Rajah Hot Curry Powder.  Nothing else (apart from the chicken) -- I will report back !

** Phil.

[Les]

That should be interesting Phil, Looking forward to your results.

I can remember we had Cloves, cinnamon, and nutmeg back then, don't know if they used them though, Maybe they made some kind of Garam Masala using the cloves, cinnamon and curry powder.
  HS

[Razor]

Hi Phil

Isn't the Rajah hot curry powder just standard curry powder but with added chilli powder anyway?

HS, good point with the cloves, nutmeg and cinnamon, and yes, with the addition of curry powder and chilli powder, they could well have made a garam masala of sorts.

Ray

[Peripatetic Phil]

To be fair, I've always thought that spices would have been available back then but at what cost, is possibly what I'm getting at? Like today, I can't see many BIR selling a dish that actually contains saffron purely down to the expense!  So, from a commercial aspect, would the BIR's have included some of the well known spices that we enjoy today, if it would of hiked up the price?  If they didn't include them, then I wonder what they used instead?  Curry powder would have been my first thought like HS suggest but would that have been it, chilli powder and curry powder?

Well, I think you have to look at the economics of it : curry powder is a "value added" product; you take some basic ingredients, blend them, put them in a fancy container, and charge more for the result than you paid for the individual ingredients.  So on that basis, it would be cheaper to use the basic spices.  However, there is another side : economies of scale (you can see my wife is doing an MBA !) -- if the curry powder manufacturers buy the spices in quantities many times that which a restaurant would buy, then they would be sold at a lower price to the curry powder manufacturer than to the restaurant, so the curry powder manufacturer /could/ blend them, package them, sell them at a profit, and still represent better value for the restaurant owner than the individual spices.  But the same is true today, and we know that today restaurants /do/ use unblended spices, as well as "curry masala" and other blends (arguably including "curry powder", but I still have reservations where that is concerned).  So on balance, I come down in favour of the idea that restaurants in the 60s and 70s were not fundamentally using any different to today; they undoubtedly had less choice (certainly as regards brands), but they still had access to individual spices at an affordable price, and could create their own unique flavour (which was, in fact, far more in evidence during the 60s and the 70s than it is today) by creating their own unique spice blends.

Isn't the Rajah hot curry powder just standard curry powder but with added chilli powder anyway?

Yes, I picked it for that very reason (apart from the fact that it is the only curry powder I have, apart from Vietnamese and Chinese, simply because I never use curry powder myself).  So the idea is to create a curry (well, "cook" rather than "create") using the most basic ingredients : base, oil, salt, curry powder, g/g puree, chicken; and then see how the final dish works out and report back.

** Phil.

[Razor]

Phil,

Well, I think you have to look at the economics of it : curry powder is a "value added" product; you take some basic ingredients, blend them, put them in a fancy container, and charge more for the result than you paid for the individual ingredients.  So on that basis, it would be cheaper to use the basic spices.

Really?  Are you paying more for curry powder than individual ground spices?  I'm paying exactly the same, around 60p for 100g, Rajah brand.

I would be more inclined to think that curry powder back in the 60's/70's, was imported into the UK, as a simple marketing gimmick, knowing that the UK consumer would not necessarily associate, Dhanya, Jeera or haldi with curry making but certainly would associate curry powder with a dish of the same name?  Was there really any need to import all the individual spices to an "uninformed" market, (except for BIR's) that probably wouldn't purchase such items?

I'm not going out of my way to disagree with you Phil but, apart from the introduction of Pataks and the like, why are the curries so different today than they were yesterday. My thoughts are, curries needed to be cheap, therefore ingredients need to be kept simple/minimal = a very different taste.  Just by thinning my base down, reducing the amount of spice mix I use to 1 tsp and reducing my g/g paste to 0.5tsp, HAS improved my curries of late, and has got me closer to what I'm chasing.

I can't wait for you to give your trial a go, I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Ray

[chewytikka]

Hi Ray
The spices were the same in the 60s as they are now, its just the evolution and popularity
of CURRY, which enables you to buy spices just about anywhere these days.
Back in the day, I spent many a night in my first BIR kitchen and I remember all the big square tins
of spice powders, as well as the galvanised dustbins full of rice and flour. They have always made mixed powder for the final curries and the curry powder for the base gravy was usually Madras Curry Powder, I remember the the big green tin and the ornate label mostly in Arabic except the words Madras Curry Powder and that I couldn't get any in small packets at the local Souk.
I think people get confused with Madras Curry Powder, as its nothing to do with heat or Madras the Curry!
It's an historic spice blend of at least 12 spices, going back to the 1800's

I've just bought a bagful of Natco stuff today at Morrisons.
All marked down for some reason... I don't need any of it, but at these prices
I just couldn't' resist.
Whole Jheera at 12p per 100g packet - Best Before 2013
Tikka Masala Powder at 15p per 100g packet - Best Before 2013
Madras Curry Powder at 10p per 100g packet - Best Before 2013
Three 250ml bottles of Pride Lemon Juice = One Pound- Best Before 8/2012
LOL could these be 60's prices -Result
cheers Chewy

[Les]

They have always made mixed powder for the final curries and the curry powder for the base gravy was usually Madras Curry Powder,
cheers Chewy

I know this was not ment for me but thanks for your input on this Chewy,
I think this is why the old school currys had more flavour, Using curry powder for the base, and spice mix for the final dish, Where as today they use the spice mix in the base and the final dish,
Going to give this a try with the next batch of base i make.
Thanks again

HS

[Razor]

Cheers Chewy,

So it seems that spices were available to the restaurants but no so much to the homecook then?

Well, at least that rules out my theory, so the "lost taste" brings us back to the use of pastes then, although I don't use them in my own curries, I can imagine quite a few TA and BIR's do.

Ray