Topic: Razor's Curry Base

[Cory Ander]

Hi Ray,

Interesting result, a while ago, using your curry base with making a korma....it gave a very nicely flavoured (BIR-like) korma that tasted (nicely, and BIR-like, IMO) of carrot!  (I know there is no carrot in your recipe, which is why I was intrigued with the nice, carroty taste, of the korma).  I'm sure it will also produce very nice other mild curries (chicken tikka, etc).

It inspired me to go RIGHT back to basics (using FAR fewer ingredients and, particularly, far fewer spices, than even you use) with a curry base for "mild" curries....which, I have to say, I have now tried with great success.

[missy]

I am at the moment making about 100 curries a week for my shop and supply business and have tried using a few different base sauces from this website and Kris dillon base, and I have to say Ray's is by far the best one and Kris Dillon's is a close second. I tried sns base and Ca's, and me and my wife found they tasted a little bitter. I really don't think carrots and peppers should be added to the base,  IMO and also it adds more cost to it.

[Les]

I really don't think carrots and peppers should be added to the base,

I agree with that statment, (But I think it's a new wave thing to try and give some flavour to the base)
Thats why I use the bradford base from admin recipe, (Which I would say was old school)

HS

[Razor]

Hi Phil,

Thanks once again for your kind words and I'm really glad things seem to be going well with your business. 

I really don't think carrots and peppers should be added to the base

I wouldn't like to say whether or not carrots and peppers should be in a base but what I would say is, when I was developing my base, I did try alsorts of things, carrots, peppers, mooli and I think cabbage at one stage? and to be honest, the difference in flavour was so subtle that I didn't bother to continue with them.  I figured, as long as there were onions, garlic, ginger, spices, tomatoes and some coriander stalks, the 'base/foundation' flavour would be there.  It also makes for a very very inexpensive base, brilliant for a commercial venture such as yours Phil.

As for CA's base turning out bitter, got to admit, that's something that I've never experienced with his base, if anything, I've always thought that his base has a lovely BIR sweetness to it?  I think CA himself would be best to try to help you identify where the bitterness could be coming from but as a suggestion, could it be from your tomatoes?  Tomato seeds can impart a bitterness and so it may be best to 'scoop' out the seeds and just use the flesh?

As for SnS's base, this was one of the first bases that I tried on here and if my memory serves me good, I remember it being very tomatoey, a little too much for my liking.  It did remind me very much of tomato soup, which is fine if you like a tomatoey curry.

Ray

[Razor]

Hi CA,

Hi Ray,

Interesting result, a while ago, using your curry base with making a korma....it gave a very nicely flavoured (BIR-like) korma that tasted (nicely, and BIR-like, IMO) of carrot!  (I know there is no carrot in your recipe, which is why I was intrigued with the nice, carroty taste, of the korma).  I'm sure it will also produce very nice other mild curries (chicken tikka, etc).

It inspired me to go RIGHT back to basics (using FAR fewer ingredients and, particularly, far fewer spices, than even you use) with a curry base for "mild" curries....which, I have to say, I have now tried with great success.

I've been thinking along those lines myself of late.  Trying to replicate the 'old school' flavour is still a nut that I'd like to crack but after some thought as to how they achieved the flavour makes me think that everything had to be; a) Simple, b) Quick and c) Cheap.  I don't know how readily available spices were back in the 70's in the UK but I suspect that they came  at a price?  This makes me wonder how far removed the BIR dishes of the day were from their traditional roots, I suspect quite a bit more than they are today?

Chili powder has, to my recollection, always been readily available in the UK going back decades so I'd speculate that dishes of the 70's had a much higher content of chili powder in them than the same dishes of today and is why members remember how hot the dishes were back then? 

I only really started eating BIR curries in the mid 80's and so don't truly remember how different curries were of the 70's but I have noticed a change over the years, so I guess as new ingredients have become more obtainable, the BIR's feel inclined to use them and is why, IMO, the flavour has changed somewhat and possibly not for the better?

I've been thinning down my base more of late, using less spice masala and less garlic and I've got to say, the dishes have improved.  Don't get me wrong, I've still some way to go for example, my spice masala contains quite a few ingredients that I don't think would have been as available back then as they are today and so, my dishes will still have a 'familiar' flavour to them.  I'd still like to experiment with a very simple spice masala but I'd really need to know what was and wasn't available back in the 70's, that's going to be the hard part because nobody seems to know.

Of course, I could be completely on the wrong track but I'm having fun finding out ;D

Ray

[missy]

As for CA's base turning out bitter
[/quote]

To be honest with you Ray it was quite a while ago, so I'm not sure if bitter is the correct word for it. I was trying out different bases at the time without telling the misses, and I didn't think the final curries tasted as good, and she also said to me "what are wrong with the curries now, they used to taste much better". So, I told her I had been trying different bases. So, then just decided to go back to making your base, even though yours is a two stage base and perhaps a little bit more work, the curries do taste much better. I am still making CA's curry recipes but now with my own spice mix, which is a bit of a mixture between yours and CA's.

Regards

Phil

[Razor]

Hi Phil,

That's what it's all about mate, finding mix and matches and seeing what works for you.

Ray

[Les]

but I'd really need to know what was and wasn't available back in the 70's, that's going to be the hard part because nobody seems to know.

Of course, I could be completely on the wrong track but I'm having fun finding out ;D

Ray

Hi Ray
I can remember Chili Powder (as you said), and also Curry powder (Vencat, light blue = mild, Pink = Hot) being available in the 60s/70s but not a lot of anything else, maybe some other members can think of some more, and put them on this thread, and we may well come up with some answers.

PS
Maybe they just used the curry powders :

[Peripatetic Phil]

I can remember Chili Powder (as you said), and also Curry powder (Vencat, light blue = mild, Pink = Hot) being available in the 60s/70s but not a lot of anything else, maybe some other members can think of some more, and put them on this thread, and we may well come up with some answers.
Maybe they just used the curry powders :

OK, in reverse order : no, they (the Indian restaurants, that is) definitely used more than just curry powder : I know this because on my very first visit to an Indian restaurant ("The Maharajah of Chislehurst", owned by a Mr Chowdhury : I remember his name because it was the same name as the owner of an Indian restaurant I used to frequent in Nottingham during the period 1970 -- 1973.) Anyhow, I was taken aback by the sheer intensity of the heat, and said to the waiter "Even the rice tastes hot : do you use curry powder in it ?".  "No sir", he said, "not curry powder : other spices".  This would have taken place during the period 1963 -- 1970, and earlier rather than later : maybe 1965/66.

As to curry powders, yes, I remember "Vencat"s (I think that was a foreshortening of the real name -- something like "Vencatachellum", perhaps ?) but I used to buy my spices from a central London Indian grocer (and, later, from similar grocers in the Birmingham/Smethwick/Walsall area), and there the spices were in bulk.  Of course I have no idea how many spices he sold, but of curry powders alone there was a considerable choice, that I do remember, and even more varieties of dal.

And some evidence (not as substantial as I would like) that there was almost certainly more than just "curry powder and ground chillies" right from the outset :

"As the influence of the British in India grew, so did the interest in Indian food back in Britain, leading to the publishing of recipes and the commercial creation of curry powder in 1780."

Sp, pre-1780, there were presumably spices but not curry powder.

"In 1935 Veeraswamy's was sold to Sir William Steward, M.P., who ran the restaurant for 40 years. He travelled the world in order to source produce and was dubbed 'the curry king' by The Times."

He would hardly have "travelled the world" just to buy curry powder !

"If you had visited Veerawamy's, as it was then called, in December 1959 you could have enjoyed Chicken Tandoori (allow 15-20 minutes) for the princely sum of ten shillings and sixpence. "

Perhaps you /could/ make tandoori chicken using just curry powder, but I suspect they did not.

All quotations from http://www.menumagazine.co.uk/book/restauranthistory.html.  It would be well worth researching Sir William Steward, M.P., further : he may well have left written evidence of the spices he brought back to England.

E P Veerasawmy (1963) lists the following as being available : cinnamon, cumin, allspice, cardamom, turmeric, coriander, ... (this just from the text up to page 22).

Mrs Beeton (1860) lists coriander seed, turmeric, cinnamon seed, mustard, ground ginger, allspice and fenugreek
seed.

Hannah Glass (1747) lists peppercorns, coriander seed, white pepper, cloves, and mace.

The last two are just from the most casual inspection : I am certain more spices would come to light from a thorough reading.

So, I think we are fooling ourselves if we believe that the ingredients available to BIR chefs in the 1960s were significantly less varied than today; of the spices that we now use as a matter of course (turmeric, chilli, coriander, fenugreek, paprika, cumin) I would bet a very substantial sum that all were easily available and widely used at that time.

** Phil.

[Les]

Phil
So we know they used spices then, But can you remember any of them? Ones that you personally bought.

HS