Topic: Aged Oil / Aged Seasoned Pan / Wok = The Taste??

[artistpaul]

A few thoughts of from a Newbie poster to the site but cooking too long to remember!, probably long ago covered in much depth by seasoned members and those much more experienced than myself, but I will throw them both out anyway & see what happens or if its of any help.

Like myself, we are all searching for the Holy Grail of BIR.

That elusive aroma, a flavour which seems to be alluding almost everyone as far as I can see from my recent forages through the Forum, despite probably having perfected ( more so than many BIRs ) the Base in terms of ingredients, quantities and method used etc ( with the exception of whatever impact the use of their Used / flavoured oil has on the Base.)
This I suspect is more crucial to that 'taste' than any other singular ingredient.
That oil I believe is why all of us are unable to push our curries beyond the point most of us have reached.
We all know oil is the most perfect carrier of both aroma and flavour.
Hence its use since time began as a carrier of Scent / Perfume and as a carrier of both flavour and plant / flower extracts in Essential oils used by Therapists.
Hence its potency and impact upon both a Base and the subsequent production of the final curry too.
Ive also read on a number of posts from Members that they commented upon if they allowed their spice mix or Tomato paste to 'stay frying in a little heap in the middle of the pan for 3 or 4 minutes or more, as they have observed in BIRs, then they would invariably have a burnt offering on their hands in half such time'.

Again, I believe this is down to the use of well precooked/used/topped up Oil, call it what you like, because the Flashpoint of such oil has significantly changed chemically allowing for a much different approach to frying the spices for much longer. Impossible to do with fresh oil. In addition, by the BIRS constantly topping up their 'Oil' with both new and used oil, this stops it going rancid.

This is a principle, used exactly the same way with the production of dough to make speciality breads. Here a dough 'Starter' is used to kick start the fresh dough. The oldest Starter known is almost 100 years old & belongs to a Sourdough Bread Bakery in Boston USA.
The Starter began life 100 years ago as a left over piece of dough from the first bread batch the Bakery made. A bit of it was added to the next batch and a little from the next batch's dough added back to the Starter and so on and so on down the years.
You can guess the flavour. Impossible to replicate it with new dough.

I think the same principal is at work here too with both the Bases and final curries.

Finally, even though they are not anywhere in the same league, the most ordinary Chinese Takeaway NEVER uses fresh oil unless they pre flavour it by cooking at least Ginger and Garlic in it. Even then I know from personal experience they muck about by using reclaimed oils aswell.

Finally, and Ive obviously gone off on a big ramble tonight, I think the pan used to cook the final curry has a fair impact too on final taste.
Ive read time over about that illusive smokey flavour / aroma. I think maybe 85% of that is down to the oil as described above, the other 15% the Pan.
Ive used Smoked Paprika to various degrees of effectiveness in trying to get that element into the curry. However I believe a VERY well internally seasoned, patinated and heavily blackened and used pan ( never washed or cleaned, just brushed down and let the next meal's flames sterilise it ) goes much towards the final 'smokey' taste. A clean shiny pan will just never hack it.

Thats it, fingers are sore. Hope it was of interest.

[haldi]

Hi Paul
       Yes that was of interest
It's good to see someone else drawing similar conclusions
I can't speak for all takeaways, but I know two that use old oil in the base.
They also salvage this oil for cooking the curries.

When they fry anything in this salvaged oil, it cooks totally differently to how you would expect.
Everything sort of half fries but half boils too
Nothing seems to brown.
So the whole curry,stage by stage, is cooked in a different manner to how we do it.
Any recipe that states "brown the garlic or ginger"  is not BIR.

Another very important thing about the oil/gravy, is the length of time it is boiled.
Takeaways cook the gravy for hours and this completely changes the flavour and character of the finished salvaged oil.
Any recipe making a curry gravy for less than three hours cooking time, is not BIR
If you get the oil right, you don't even need the Curry Gravy, to get the "taste".
I've done it with given BIR oil
It was a lentil curry

I question whether it's worth all the trouble to make these curries properly, but it's Saturday morning, and I am trying again for the perfect curry

[JerryM]

artistpaul,

sore fingers for sure and building an immense knowledge base by the looks of things  ;D

your on the right track to BIR for me.

on the subject of the "heap in the pan" and "burning" - it used to be an area of interest - i now add water to the tom puree (see http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2968.0).

Haldi's comment on cooking time is something i'd not thought of. i currently cook for 3 hrs and feel i should try out a longer period. i've just noticed that the oil improves with cooking (see http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2684.msg29831#msg29831)

[Bobby Bhuna]

Again, I believe this is down to the use of well precooked/used/topped up Oil, call it what you like, because the Flashpoint of such oil has significantly changed chemically allowing for a much different approach to frying the spices for much longer.

Excuse me if I'm wrong but doesn't the smoke point of oil decrease every time you use it, surely making it more difficult to fry the spices for longer?

[haldi]

Excuse me if I'm wrong but doesn't the smoke point of oil decrease every time you use it, surely making it more difficult to fry the spices for longer?

Exactly Bobby
BIR oil cooks things in a unique way
That (in my opinion) is what we are doing wrong
We are cooking everything wrong

[chinois]

The oil does apparantly decrease in flashpoint but we dont know how much by.
A lower flash point means the pan will catch fire easier, which has been witnessed countless times in BIRs. Reaching the flashpoint obviously isnt a negative thing and doesnt ruin the oil or the dish, despite what some reference sites might tell you.
I cant see atristpaul's evidence on BIRs frying the spices for longer. All the BIRs and videos i've seen show the chef's cooking the spices for hardly any time before adding tom puree or base. They are usually added off heat too.

One thing to remember is that restaurants' burners are not necessarily as hot as you think. Having something like 'their burners are 5 times stronger' in your head is misleading i think. I know people will disagree with this but matching the statistics from their specs doesnt tell you the full 'real life scenario' story IMO. There are so many factors which explain why their garlic doesnt burn as quickly as you think it might.

[chinois]

Any recipe that states "brown the garlic or ginger" is not BIR.

Disagreed. Strongly.
Quite a statement that.

[haldi]

There are so many factors which explain why their garlic doesnt burn as quickly as you think it might.

I was silly enough to buy a restaurant hob
It is exactly the same equipment, as several places I know
On my hob, with fresh oil, my garlic will turn black in about a minute.
On their hobs, with curry gravy oil, they cook minutes without burning
It's the oil that's different
With curry gravy oil, I was given, my garlic cooked exactly the same as theirs.

Any recipe that states "brown the garlic or ginger" is not BIR.

Disagreed. Strongly.
Quite a statement that.

Sorry Chinois, I'm not trying to upset anyone
But I've seen what I've seen
And no chef browned the garlic or garlic/ginger in their oil.
Maybe some places do this, but I've not come across it yet
I've been in six BIR kitchens now, and noone used fresh oil either

[Derek Dansak]

This post is interesting for sure. However i think a few of us need to sanity check this latest line of enquiry, by buying some real bir oil and see if we can reproduce haldis results. if the oil really is the missing link, (which it may not be) then we should varify this by attempting to replicate haldis fine work. the garlic probably does not burn as quickly, due to it being stored in a fridge and covered in oil. i was shown how to make bir garlic paste, and they make it with some oil to help preserve it. then refridgerate it.

[JerryM]

Haldi's comment on cooking time is something i'd not thought of. i currently cook for 3 hrs and feel i should try out a longer period. i've just noticed that the oil improves with cooking (see http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2684.msg29831#msg29831)

i've tried a longer cooking period out but alas no improvement. i normally cook stage 1 (before blending) either 1 or 2 hrs (depending on when i'm reclaiming) and then cook stage 2 to get 3hrs total.

on the last base i cooked stage 1 for 4 hrs and stage 2 for 3 hrs. at the end of cooking the base tasted the same as it normally does. the only observation was that blending was a tad easier.

i intend to stick with my norm of stage 1 - 2 hrs and stage 2  - 1 hr ie 3 hrs total.