Topic: Tweaking

[Ian S.]

Hi everyone.  'Infrequent Ian' here.

There's been some talk in threads about the KD recipes.  Some of it's geting a bit heated (pardon the pun!) and I'd like to leave that behind, in this post.  But as there seems to be a division between those who think the KD approach basically works and those who don't, I thought I'd just add my thoughts on its pros and cons, and let you know how I've been tweaking it over the years. I'm not sticking up for it in any way - it's still not close enough.

First of all - and this has been mentioned before - although we all try to describe 'The Taste' and we seem to be able to agree on certain aspects of it, it's massively subjective.  It's entirely possible that some of you would try a vindaloo from my favourite local takeaway, and decide that it just doesn't 'do it' for you.  When I visit my friends in Southend, they order from a very posh and expensive takeaway which obviously uses the very best ingredients but for me, the meal just doesn't hang together (in terms of taste) in the way that I prefer.  My local favourite is positively cheap by comparison, but it's their food's taste and texture that I'm trying to replicate.  So I may be chasing something different from you altogether!

My finished KD curry has a very similar texture to my local's.  It tastes fairly light and 'clean'.  When I tried Pete's excellent Brick Lane recipe, both I and my partner agreed that - while it tasted great - the sauce seemed to have an emulsified oil texture in the mouth.  This is probably because I pureed the  base without removing the floating oil first.  It wasn't unpleasant, but for our palettes it was a little over-rich.  So for me, the KD method of pureeing boiled onions before adding oil seems to get me closer to my goal.

I agree that the KD book falls down in the individual dish recipes, and that the base sauce in itself is bland.  What the dish cooking method has going for it - in my opinion -
is that the rather watery base sauce evaporates down during the 5 minute boil, and then the oil separates and floats during the 4 or so minutes of simmering.  To me, this just looks and feels right and deems to make sense.  But the dish recipes all seem overspiced and oversalted, and the addition of so much Garam Masala turns the sauce a muddy brown.  My local's is always golden (apart from the Phall!) so this tells me I'm going off the rails.  Then again, some people here have reported seeing brown base sauces in BIR kitchens...

Here's how I've got my  best results for a vindaloo to date.  I'm not suggesting that if you try it, you'll like it!  But just for info (and to prove that I do actually do some cooking!):

Base sauce:  I use twice as much garlic as the recipe  says and one-and-a-half times as much ginger.  I roughly chop and fry the garlic (just golden, not brown) before adding it to the ginger and water and pureeing.  This seems to blend in better (in terms of taste) and also - I don't know if this is important - seems to stop the onion mixture going that insipid green colour.  Then straight on as the book says - although most recently, I added  2" of coconut block and a green pepper when boiling the onions (inspired by Pete's recipe) and it was very nice.

On to the tomato, paprika and oil stage, and instead of using  225g tinned tomatoes and their juice,  I drain the tinned tomatoes thoroughly and puree enough to get 225g after emptying the blender.  I've also tried doubling the amount and that worked well.  Then straight on as the book says.

When it comes to the dish, I use 3/4 pint of base for one portion.  How on earth are you supposed to get 3 to 4 portions out of that as the book says?!  When I've finished, the base has reduced to just over 1/2 a pint.

I bring to the boil and add cooked meat and chilli powder - but I add 1/4 to 1/2 a teaspoon of asafoetida too.  1/4 of a teaspoon of salt is enough for me - a whole teaspoon seems practically poisonous.  I boil this furiously for five minutes - but with a lid on.  I know BIRs don't use a lid, but this is mainly to save my kitchen from splatters!

Then I lower the heat ad add just 1/2 level teaspoon of the KD Garam Masala, and the tip of a teaspoon's worth of ground fenugreek leaves.  And instead of adding half the chopped coriander after two minutes and simmering for a further two, I just sprinkle the coriander immediately before serving.  Any sooner and it seems to discolour the dish and lose all its magic.

Now, to my palette, if I could just get the smoky toffee taste/smell into this, I think I'll have pretty much cracked it.  Which is why I've got to try the chicken jelly next time.  I agree with Pete that chicken curries will have this quality to a degree, but it's not as pronounced in mine as it is in my local takeaway's.  I think if it iis the missing factor, they must add it even if the curry is going to contain chicken anyway.

Plus there's lots of other things to try from the excellent info provided on this site, not to mention comlete alternatives to KD - all of which I intend to get round to, when I can afford it!

[Ian S.]

... and, as I'm working from memory here - I've just realised i forgot to mention the cumin!  1/2 teaspoon added along with the garam masala and fenugreek! :

[pete]

You've really been working on this.
I have never totally given up on KD curry secret.
I had a "back to basics" last night using her recipes.
The finished sauce is just so far off what you hope for, but near enough to know it could be done.
I normally end up with something that looks right at least.
Next time I will try your frying the garlic first.
And your observations on overdoing the fenugreek and garam masala are spot on.
Both can totally dominate the meal and neither are the main feature of a takeaway.
Bought curries have a very subtle flavour.
It's so subtle that you can completely miss the fact you have achieved it.
The number of times I have frozen my "failed tasteless" curries and been amazed at what thawed out.

[Blondie]

Hi Pete,

One error in the KD book that threw me to begin with is the Fenugreek ingredient in the chicken curry (and other main ingredient basic curries).

In the ingredients it staes ground Fenugreek and in the procedure states dried fenugreek.

hope this helps a little,

Cheers Pete,

Blondie

[Ian S.]

Hi Blondie

Yes, you're quite right - the instructions are confusing because of this.  When KD says 'ground fenugreek'  she means dried fenugreek leaves, ground up!  So a 'pinch of ground fenugreek' in the recipies  is actually more like 1/2 a teaspoon or so of dried fenugreek leaves, I suppose.

Grinding the leaves is a bit of a business.  The fine powder seems to leak out of any gaps in the mill and fill the air.  My whole flat smells of it for days afterwards.

>>The finished sauce is just so far off what you hope for, but near enough to know it could be done.

Yep, that about sums it up, Pete!

[Blondie]

Hi Ian S,

What makes you think that grinding dried fenugreek leaves is what is meant?

The reason I ask is, that ground or powdered fenugreek is available and it has a very very strong flavour nothing like grinding leaves at home will give.

Cheers Ian S,

Blondie

[Ian S.]

Hi Blondie

It's mentioned in the book's introduction, where the spices are listed and described.  It talks about dried fenugreek leaves, and then (from memory - I'll check when I get home) says something like "grind in a coffee grinder and store in an airtight jar".  I was surprised when I read it - I'd never heard of anyone grinding the dried leaves before.  I suppose it spreads the flavour more quickly and uniformly when you add it to the curry.  But it doesn't mention fenugreek seeds in the introduction (once again, as far as I can remember) so I assume that the 'ground fenugreek' referred to throughout the recipes is the same stuff talked about in the  intro.

I could be wrong, though, so I'll definitely be checking when I get home! 

Ian
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[Ian S.]

Ah - I've just noticed you've got the e-book version here on this site!

Here's the passage from 'Introduction - Herbs and Spices':

>>Fenugreek (dry leaves). Not to be confused with fenugreek seeds, this is a dark green leafy plant similar in height to coriander. The flavour is not as subtle as that of coriander and becomes more concentrated when the plant is dried. Known as 'methi' it is available from Asian grocers in both its fresh and dry form. It is the dried ingredient that is used in restaurant cooking and although methi is not perhaps an essential herb for restaurant curries, it certainly add that 'extra something' so it is worth trying if you can get it.
To prepare for use, pick out and discard any straw-like pieces. Grind in a coffee grinder, sieve, and store in a glass jar. Do not forget to label.

Ian
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[Yousef]

Great well thought out post Ian. S,

Just picking up on your point about Brown Gravy, i ordered a takeaway on Sat (Prawn Balti) the sauce was very dark brown, thick and had a really strong beefy oxo type taste and smell.  Not very enjoyable at all.

I have never seen this before and it does not work. 
In addition the girl had a Chicken Rogan, which again did not have the tatse at all.  Very dissapointing and I really believe i could have done a better job.

S

[George]

I have never totally given up on KD curry secret

Where does the elusive Kris Dillon hang out? And Pat Chapman for that matter. Kris Dillon may be a pen name but a real person must have actually written the book. These authors are at least as interested in curries as we are. You'd think they would soon find these forums and couldn't resist the opportunity to pass comment.