Topic: Saffron vs. Darth 100 Percent Madras Clone base sauce comparison (illustrated)

[Domi]

everybody changes recipes at some point SnS, even if it's just half a teaspoon of sugar vs a full one, it doesn't make a recipe less versatile, it just means it has to be altered in different ways to suit the cook

[Bobby Bhuna]

If Darths base does not contain tomatoes then it does not contain tomatoes. This does mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.

Whoops!!! I meant

This does not mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.

Sorry about that. I'll change that now.

Right chaps, I'm off now. I'll be back tmrw! ;D

[SnS]

everybody changes recipes at some point SnS, even if it's just half a teaspoon of sugar vs a full one, it doesn't make a recipe less versatile, it just means it has to be altered in different ways to suit the cook

I think you may have misunderstood my meaning Domi  :

Versatility in terms of number of different curries that can be produced from one particular gravy, without the gravy dominating the final outcome.

SnS  ;D

[Domi]

If Darths base does not contain tomatoes then it does not contain tomatoes. This does mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.

Whoops!!! I meant

This does not mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.

so you're saying that if a base gravy uses 1 tblsp chilli powder, and a curry recipe specifies the same (since it was designed for a different base in which chilli was omitted) you would add 2 tblsp, in fact doubling the quantity? I can't be the only one to think that that's wrong? : although it may be the cause of such varied replies to some recipes in which the base gravy has not been specified?

[Rai]

A good test to whether a base gravy is versatile or not, would be to substitute it into some of KD's recipes.

Interesting opinion, but I find that kris dhillons recipes are seriously lacking (including her base) so I dont think your suggestion is sound

It's interesting to note that out of 36 listed BIR style curry base recipes on this forum, only 2 have no tomato or tomato puree included

Interesting to note, but not particulalry relevant.  Id suspect that many of these bases will be iterations from a similar source (sauce?  ).  That is pat chapman, kris dhillon, or one of the other limited number of copycat curry cookbooks.  These authors use tomatoes in their bases so other people copy them.

Should we conclude from this (assuming that all or most are genuine BIR recipes), that there should be at least some tomato or tomato puree in the base recipe to fulfil the versatility requirement?

I think the assumption is flawed, but why an earth would we conclude that anyway?  Clearly the most versatile option is NO BASE.  With the next most versatile option being a pure onion base, followed by a pure onion and garlic base,...etc, etc

I conclude that a base with tomatoes in it is logically less versatile than one without tomatoes in it.  Hard to argue with that logic I imagine, though Im sure someone will feel obliged to try 

[JerryM]

i think both lines of thought are spot on.

i feel a base has to be versatile ie a BIR so that with some tinkering at the cooking stage a decent curry can be made whatever specific variety is being targeted ie korma to madras etc.

this is why i mentioned celery. i was searching for why Darth's had not come up to scratch as on paper it looks every bit as good as the saffron (if not better due to the wider selection of bulk veg and spices). consequently i would have expected both bases with a bit of tinkering to the madras recipe at cooking stage to have produced a decent result (albeit slightly different taste) ie both passed the finishing line together but wearing different colours.

what was interesting to me was that Bobby (i think) could not identify any improvement to the cooking of Darth's to bring it up to scratch. on that assumption saffron must be closer to BIR intent.

[Bobby Bhuna]

Hard to argue with that logic I imagine, though Im sure someone will feel obliged to try 

 ;D Morning!

Interesting opinion, but I find that kris dhillons recipes are seriously lacking (including her base) so I dont think your suggestion is sound

Yes they are lacking but simple, minimalist and generic, so I would say they would be pretty good for a base comparison.

Id suspect that many of these bases will be iterations from a similar source (sauce?  ).  That is pat chapman, kris dhillon, or one of the other limited number of copycat curry cookbooks.  These authors use tomatoes in their bases so other people copy them.

Iterations from a similar sauce? Do you mean variations on a similar sauce?
This makes me wonder if you have ever actually read these books, or are aware of the background of the authors...

I conclude that a base with tomatoes in it is logically less versatile than one without tomatoes in it.  Hard to argue with that logic I imagine.

Not so much... When we say "versatile base" we are talking about a base that when used with most bog standard recipes that require a quantity of unspecified base sauce, produces a good curry without dominating the dish.

By using no base in such recipes, you would more often than not, have a a few chunks of meat and finely chopped onion swimming in oil, tomato puree and spices.

[Bobby Bhuna]

so you're saying that if a base gravy uses 1 tblsp chilli powder, and a curry recipe specifies the same (since it was designed for a different base in which chilli was omitted) you would add 2 tblsp, in fact doubling the quantity?

I'm saying that if a base contains 1 tbsp of chili powder, it's not very versatile and as a result of my curry cooking experience, I would avoid making it, as it is likely to dominate the dish.

If you are making bases that specify any spice in large volume, I understand that to get a decent result, you probably do have to alter the quantity of ingredients in the final dish.

What I'm trying to say however, is that if you find yourself having to do this your base is not versatile enough. An ideal base should be subtle enough so that you do not have to account for it when cooking your final dish.

So when comparing the two bases in this thread, I did not alter the ingredients of the curry to suit the base used. This meant that amongst other things, the versatility of two bases was being tested.

[Rai]

;D Morning!

Yesssss bobby, theres always one  :

Yes they are lacking but simple, minimalist and generic, so I would say they would be pretty good for a base comparison

"simple" "minimilistic" and "generic" bobby? 

But if they are crap bobby (and they are crap) the they arent really good for comparing anything are they now  :

Iterations from a similar sauce? Do you mean variations on a similar sauce?

Let me simplify for you bobby.  I mean that many of the base recipes here are likely to be variations on pat chapmans, kris dhillons, etc, which contain tomatoes.  Get it?  :

This makes me wonder if you have ever actually read these books, or are aware of the background of the authors..

I have no idea what you mean by that bobby, but I agree that you should probably wonder a bit more before proceeding to argue the toss just for the hell of it

Not so much... When we say "versatile base" we are talking about a base that when used with most bog standard recipes that require a quantity of unspecified base sauce, produces a good curry without dominating the dish

Huh?  :

By using no base in such recipes, you would more often than not, have a a few chunks of meat and finely chopped onion swimming in oil, tomato puree and spices.

Huh?  :

[Bobby Bhuna]

Yesssss bobby, theres always one  :

and here was me thinking the same thing

But if they are crap bobby (and they are crap) the they arent really good for comparing anything are they now  :

I wouldn't say they're crap. I'd say they're over simplified but have many of the underlying techniques correct. This simplicity lends itself to the base comparison. Since the curry is not too complex, the focus is on the base.

Let me simplify for you bobby.  I mean that many of the base recipes here are likely to be variations on pat chapmans, kris dhillons, etc, which contain tomatoes.  Get it?  :

Oh, I understood the first time, I was just criticising your English. It would appear to me that you seem to think that BIR cooking was spawned by the arrival of Pat Chapman or Kris Dhillon. The BIR came before the BIR cookbook, and I think it's a safe bet to assume they have been using tomatoes in their base from the start. What we have leanred about base sauces here suggests that this is the case. (see SnS' statistic on tomato use in base recipes)

I have no idea what you mean by that bobby, but I agree that you should probably wonder a bit more before proceeding to argue the toss just for the hell of it

Or perhaps you should actually read books before delivering reviews on them. To which of Pat Chapmans bases is it that you are referring? I can't think of any that are notably similar to the KD base.

Not so much... When we say "versatile base" we are talking about a base that when used with most bog standard recipes that require a quantity of unspecified base sauce, produces a good curry without dominating the dish

Huh?  :

  I can't put it any more plainly than that!