Topic: Saffron vs. Darth 100 Percent Madras Clone base sauce comparison (illustrated)

[Domi]

Basically what I'm saying is if a base uses a heavier amount of one ingredient, say for example, chilli, then it is going to give a hotter result to the base sauce and obviously affect the flavour (or heat in this case) of the final curry made from that base. As such, when making a curry using a hotter base, I would take this into account when using a recipe which is not specifically used for that particular base, otherwise it would be too hot or not hot enough. Same with tomatoes, if a base does not have tomatoes in it but I'm making a tomatoey curry, the amount of tomatoes or tomato puree used in that final curry would have to be amended as per the base recipe.

I guess what I really mean is that a final curry recipe needs to be built around the ingredients used in a base gravy, not the other way around. Thus when I follow a curry recipe, I like to know which base sauce was used as it would or could dramatically change the taste of the resulting dish . The next time I make a recipe, I change it to suit my tastes, whether that be more tomatoes, chilli or whatever. I just think that when mixing and matching recipes, you must take into account the differences in ingredients, to leave out or put too much of something in somehow does no justice to either the base or curry recipe.

I mean, you could have left out the tomato from the saffron base since it was omitted from Darth's recipe, but then we'd be arguing that you'd not followd the saffron recipe and so the results were biased in some way towards Darth's base....Do you get what I mean?

Should we conclude from this (assuming that all or most are genuine BIR recipes), that there should be at least some tomato or tomato puree in the base recipe to fulfil the versatility requirement?

This would seem to be the case. It seems fairly obvious to me that most currys contain tomatoes in some form. In which case, it would save the BIR time to try and accommodate this in the base sauce, rather than having to add ingredients to each curry at the final stage.

I can understand the use of Tomato Puree at the final stage, as it helps with consistency and cooking the spices without burning them and also contributes to producing the BIR "toffee" smell.

I cannot however understand the use of Pasatta in the final stage dish. It would cool the pan down too much and waste cooking time. It's also more expensive than tinned tomatoes in my local supermarket. Finally, I never heard, from the many first hand BIR kitchen encounters on this site, of the use of Pasatta in curry cooking.

Taking this into account, coupled with the fact that we know that most curries contain a fresh / tinned tomato element, I have to conclude, as SnS suggests, the tomatoes must be added at the base sauce stage.

Again, I thin you're wrong...simply because a curry recipe must be built around the spices and ingredients used in the base.....A white sauce quickly becomes a mustard sauce, cheese sauce parsley sauce at the inclusion of one or two ingredients all of which dramatically change the final sauce...You wouldn't use parsley sauce in a lasagne....and there, I think, I rest my case ;D

[Bobby Bhuna]

A white sauce quickly becomes a mustard sauce, cheese sauce parsley sauce at the inclusion of one or two ingredients all of which dramatically change the final sauce...You wouldn't use parsley sauce in a lasagne....and there, I think, I rest my case ;D

Yes Domi, but we're making curry from the base sauce, which will always contain tomato. I'm not suggesting for one second that I would add, for example, almonds, which are found in a Korma. This would reduce the versatility of the base, as adding parsley would reduce the versatility of your white sauce.

It's fine that you counter balance your curry dishes ingredients with those present in the base sauce but I'll say it again, this thread is to compare the bases. This comparison aims to find out, amongst other things, how compatible with generic recipes the base is.

If you find yourself having to counter balance ingredients, then the base is not versatile enough (a poor example of a BIR base, as they must be proficient all-rounders). On the other hand, if your base stands up to generic recipes, then it is versatile and therefore is probably closer to being a BIR base than it's competitor.

[JerryM]

Bobby,

very good post and much good learning for me in it.

i'm pretty settled on my fav base with parker21 (Rajver) then saffron. the parker21 being slightly more delux (i think due to the addition of coconut milk).

i was thinking of trying the Darth base next being tempted by the high no of pole results. i was particularly interested in the addition of celery (which i don't care for) and was interested on any thoughts you have on the addition of celery.

[SnS]

I understand what you're saying Bobby 

If the bases were true "standalone" BIR type (not those produced specifically as "Stage 1" to a particular curry recipe), then I would not expect a dramatic taste difference between curries cooked using the same recipe - but different base.
I think the problem here is actually defining what a BIR curry base should be and what we expect from it (again).  :

SnS  ;D

[Bobby Bhuna]

i was particularly interested in the addition of celery (which i don't care for) and was interested on any thoughts you have on the addition of celery.

  I'm really glad you found the post useful.

I can't claim to be an expert on the addition of different vegetables into a base sauce but I do know that Celery appears quite often appears in things like gravy (the kind you have with a roast dinner) and so I assume it does impart some unique flavour.

Darths base has a lot of veg in it and tastes really good by itself. I wouldn't say that it has a subtle taste however, like KD and Saffron which taste a little more bland. I may well try the Rajver base next (the Madras recipe works a treat) but I'm always cautious with coconut - too much and everything tastes like a Korma!

All said and done, Darths base is certainly worth a pop - it can double up as a tasty and nutritious soup ;D

[Bobby Bhuna]

I think the problem here is actually defining what a BIR curry base should be and what we expect from it (again).  :

I think you're spot on!

[Domi]

Yes Domi, but we're making curry from the base sauce, which will always contain tomato.

Darth's base doesn't, so is it not reasonable to suggest that this was not, perhaps a fair test? You still don't see my point BB.....If you want to compare the bases, then compare the base recipes themselves, it is unfair to judge them based on a curry recipe which is not designed around that particular base. If I wanted to judge a rajver madras against Darths, then I would need to follow both the rajver base and rajver madras recipe to do it justice just as to judge Darth's madras I'd have to use both his base and curry recipes, it's unfair to do it any other way. Obviously I can choose which base I prefer but simply replacing one base with another entirely different one can't work in my opinion....

You couldn't make a korma with Stew's base as it would be way too hot.

It's a bit like following 2 chocolate cake recipes.....if one recipe calls for the inclusion of the chocolate at say, stage 2, but the other recipe says to add at a later stage, say stage 6, but the recipe you actually follow veers away from Darth's method at stage 5 for instance, at what point would Darth's recipe actually become a chocolate cake? it wouldn't, would it? (as in Darth's madras recipe, the tomatoes are added at a stage which you omitted in your test as it is not present in the rajver version : ) Now do you get my point Bobby? Darth's base is versatile, but what versatility means is that it can be changed to suit many recipes, just as the recipes themselves would have to be modified for the base gravy.

[Bobby Bhuna]

Darth's base doesn't, so is it not reasonable to suggest that this was not, perhaps a fair test?

No, it is not.

If Darths base does not contain tomatoes then it does not contain tomatoes. This does not mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.

If it doesn't work because it does not contain tomatoes, I would simply find myself a base recipe that did work for the generic case and discard Darths base as recipe specific.

Alternatively, if I was so inclined, I could add tomatoes to Darths base recipe, increasing its versatility.

I understand your point entirely. It would seem however, as SnS said, that when we say "curry base", I expect one thing and you expect another. For me, a good base must work for the generic case without me having to chop and change trusted recipes, otherwise, it's probably not of real BIR origin.

[Domi]

I thought Darth's posts make it clear that the base recipe is for vindaloos/madras's?

Darth's base doesn't, so is it not reasonable to suggest that this was not, perhaps a fair test?

If Darths base does not contain tomatoes then it does not contain tomatoes. This does mean that I or anyone else should give it some special consideration while following generic recipes.

Then why did you not add the tomato? You have just said exactly what I've been saying myself, that in order to make different curries using different bases, the ingredients have to be altered in order that the one suit the other or to suit your own personal taste? You can't miss out integral ingredients which is why this was not a fair test in my eyes.

[SnS]

Perhaps we should start classifying bases on whether they are generic (versatile) or specific (dedicated to one curry recipe)?

Personally, if I'm going to produce 4 litres of the stuff, I'd prefer the former.

SnS  :