Topic: Freebook

[Unclebuck]

posts moved from other thread by CA:

from Bobby Bhuna:

I think this may have been mentioned in the past but it would be great to set up a cr0 ebook (free to all of course) that has the collection of our finest recipes and techniques to date. We could release new versions as our recipes evolve etc, but this would be really great to close the market on people capitalising on other people's need to make good curry. Of course we would have to call it a freebook (Fr-Ebook)
What do you think?

from unclebuck:

i think thats a good idea bobby. it would download thousands

from ast:

As a start, maybe a section of articles rather than forum posts.  You could possibly use more of a blog format instead, or take submissions or something.  Don't know how the review process would work, but it might be a way to keep it on-line and dynamic.  There are ways to ensure you can sensibly print things for easy use off-line, and you could also provide off-line bundles or even PDFs if you wanted.  It all depends on how much effort people wanted to put in.

I think something that collected the wisdom of the site in a bit more digestible manner than going through all the forum postings would be a great addition.  The re-org of the recipe section into types of dish is a step in the right direction.

Probably should be a separate topic though...

from bobby bhuna:

A curry recipe wiki might be a thought. Basically some kind of "We are CR0, we think these recipes are great and will cover most currys you'll get in a BIR" as a seemingly finished product, with great instructions and lovely images - just what you want, fast, without the mess of ugly forum threads.

from ast:

Yeah, Bobby.  A wiki might do the trick, although personally I'm not a big fan of them as an authoring medium.  Still, it's as accessible as the forum to get people to contribute without having to learn a bunch of new mark-up.

Either way, having to read the whole thread for some of the more popular recipes to ensure you've gotten all of the tips, corrections and suggestions covered takes up quite a bit of time.  Most of the recipes I've used from here more than once, I've ended up transcribing for myself anyway.  If you didn't have to make that effort, you'd be streets ahead and could just focus on cooking.

from bobby bhuna:

I couldn't agree more.
I'm not a huge wiki fan but "crokopedia" and "Birikopedia" would be my suggested names  It just seems to complicate the whole thing and it would be hard to get this look and feel to seamlessly integrate across the wiki platform aswell.
That said it would be really, really great for recipes...
If we did want to press ahead with it, I could probably duplicate the CSS from here to get a very very similar look and feel now that I think about it. I also wouldn't mind setting up the wiki, as I have had been involved in setting up a development wiki at work and it's really quite simple. I also wouldn't mind paying for hosting, or contributing towards the price if someone else would. To keep it tightly integrated with this forum, Stew could give it a subdomain e.g. cr0.co.uk/crokwiki. Just some thoughts for those who may be interested.
I do think this could solve my recipe nightmares and prevent my coconut incident from reoccurring!

from unclebuck:

BB has come up with a good idea - crO freebook

a ebook in pdf format perhaps for crO members

main dishes with base gravy, starters and sides with pictures.
the best recipes from this site.
perhaps members vote for the best dishes that go into the book?

what do others think?

[ast]

Hi UB,

As I said on the other thread, I think it's a good idea.  However, I think that considerable editorial effort would be needed to make it a top-notch product and accurately represent the knowledge and quality of the recipes here.

I also think it would need to have more than just recipes.  There'd need to be at least some discussion of the various cooking techniques and other things that go into BIR food.

Even if everyone helped by contributing revised and new content, there'd still need to be an editorial team to stitch it together.  There's also the QA/QC aspect of the book:  how accessible will it be to people who've never tried this before, or who have had less than stellar results from other sources that we're all familiar with?  Who's willing to try all of the recipes - as written in the book - to make sure they fit together nicely and have notes on how to adjust them for various bases or other factors?

To me, this sort of thing is the difference between a complete work and what we have now.  What we have now is something you can approach without any expectations of polish.  It's more "rough and ready", and that's great for what the site is today.  I don't think it would work as an e-book or even Bobby's wiki idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for doing something, and I'd be willing to help as much as I could--time permitting.  I just think it could easily end up being a bit half-baked if there wasn't enough commitment to see it through to a stopping point.

I'm sure that the latest e-book didn't go through this sort of process, but I think we should be trying to do much better than the competition rather than just follow their lead except for charging for the content.  Maybe other people feel differently, though.

Cheers,

ast

[Bobby Bhuna]

Hey Ast, maybe you could read my post in the other thread, or with some luck CA or CK will organise my hap hazard topic use
I totally agree about the book but don't think that will apply to the wiki.
I think the point about a wiki is that it starts off that way and evolves into something great - e.g. wikipedia.
I've now managed to convince myself that a recipe wiki is the way forward. Not everyone should be able to edit it mind you - only an elect few represetatives who are experienced and diplomatic. The messy bickering and bitching about things can be done, as it is now, on the forum. Think of the wiki as our perforamce piece.

[ast]

Hiya Bobby,

Yeah, I read it.  Was doing a bit of surfing around and found a couple of interesting sites.  This one's built using a wiki, http://www.goonswithspoons.com/, and I think it's a pretty good example of using the medium for what we're talking about.

This one's also pretty interesting, but it's based on a blog, http://www.elise.com/recipes/archives/002033buttermilk_fried_chicken.php.  It's also quite nice in terms of the underlying structure.  Since you've mentioned CSS, you know as well as me that pimping it is a separate process to creating the underlying content...

I'm not so sure I agree with you about not trying to ensure some standards for the wiki (if developed).  To me, the wiki could well be the "living" version of the book, therefore it should have similar standards.  Wikipedia's actually quite hit-and-miss, depending on the topics you're trying to find, and there's a wide variety of approaches being used.  For something on BIR, your sample space is going to be a lot smaller, and I'm not convinced about the evolution over time working out the way you say.

The main reason I say this is because I think most people here who could contribute to the wiki have already made their own customized/adapted versions of things that they're happy with.  They've learned to live with the forum the way it is, and that's ok.  The problem is that this "learning curve" is somewhat short, but it's repeated ever time someone joins the forum.  I'm sure most veterans don't even think twice about it now.

Not sure what the answer is, but I do think there's merit in trying to establish initially high standards for the wiki/blog/whatever as well as for something else that may or may not be the same content published as an ebook.

I'm interested in hearing Stew, CA and CK's views on the subject as they've obviously been here longer than us. ;D

Whaddya think, guys?

ast

[Bobby Bhuna]

As usual Ast, some very good points.

I'll give you this one and agree that we must strive for the same editorial standards, no matter what the medium. That is after all what we're trying to achieve and it would be awful to end up with some sort of half way between a forum and what we're trying to achieve.

I would say that if we could firstly come up with the sections we want, e.g. starters, mains, etc. then the dishes we want to for these sections, we would have a good starting point. Once that was finalised, we could choose the base that we use by default and so on, so that all of this is dealt with before we put pen to paper so to speak.

Also things like default recipe layout on the page etc. etc. Once all this was ready I think we could come up with something 10 times more convenient, efficient and intuitive than the current way we look up recipes. Remember what we're looking for when trying to find recipes is like a dynamic online cook book - not a place for open discussion.

[ast]

As usual Ast, some very good points.

Thanks mate.  I think we're thinking along the same lines.

I would say that if we could firstly come up with the sections we want, e.g. starters, mains, etc. then the dishes we want to for these sections, we would have a good starting point. Once that was finalised, we could choose the base that we use by default and so on, so that all of this is dealt with before we put pen to paper so to speak.

Yeah, but the guts of that is already here.  The only things missing are direct categorizations by  ingredients, authors and potentially a rating/feedback system so people can both post comments and ratings.  The risk there is that the comments end up being a forum, so I'm not sure what the best compromise is.  I do think having every recipe have a rating score automatically would be a good idea though.  The forum could then be used for what it does best--discussion and commentary. 

Ideally, there'd be Amazon-like reviews and ratings and an automatic link to a forum topic for open discussion about the recipe.  Updates would be done directly using whatever means were provided by the software and subject to whatever review process would make sense.

Also things like default recipe layout on the page etc. etc. Once all this was ready I think we could come up with something 10 times more convenient, efficient and intuitive than the current way we look up recipes. Remember what we're looking for when trying to find recipes is like a dynamic online cook book - not a place for open discussion.

I think whatever it is, the layout should be something that we can tweak.  I'm sure the underlying content system has support for this, though, so it's just a matter of getting it done.

I do think "cr0 Currypedia" might be a better choice than "Crokipedia" as the connotations of the beginning sound probably aren't going to reinforce the impression we're driving for.

To be clear:  the idea is to figure out the best way to augment and enhance the offering of cr0, not to replace it with something else.  Just in case anyone was thinking otherwise.

Cheers,

ast

[Yousef]

Hi Guys,

Some good ideas here.
I did try to implements a basic rating system for the recipes but it was too difficult to integrate with the forum.  I have been working on a html page that replicates a curry house menu

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curryhouse_menu.html

The idea was to make the dishes in the menu a link to another page with the recipe on and a rating system so people could rate each recipe.
Also perhaps leave a comment but like you say that is for the forum.

It would be a quick reference guide.
Perhaps this is the way to go.

I personally like the idea of a free-ebook with regualr updates available for download.  all the info is on the site and pics as well, although members could contribute with their photos.  I did get a quote to do this professionaly but it would be 200 GBP...

Stew

[George]

I'm sure that if some kind of book was published right now, with the 'best of' the CR0 recipes - it would give ANY other current book on restaurant style recipes a very good run for its money in terms of the sheer taste and quality of the food produced if you make the recipes. I'm thinking of competition in the form of The Curry Secret, several books by Pat Chapman, Kushi Balti Book, the latest Curry Book and a few other books. Take the Curry Book and let's suppose for a minute that the recipes are a fair rendition of what they actually produce at that restaurant. Would a leading restaurant want to divulge recipes which it considers superior to other restaurants (their competitors)? I don't think so. A struggling, new-ish, nothing special restaurant may be persuaded to publish a book, though. That said, I concede it's not fair to judge the 'S' restaurant until at least one or two of our trusted members have been there.

I suggest it's far more likely that a top notch BIR is sometimes happy to divulge just one or two recipes, or let members watch, from which they have worked out a recipe for themselves (then generously posted it here). That's what exists at cr0 - a collection of some of the best recipes from the best restaurants. Put the lot together, and it's much better than could be obtained from just a single restaurant. I have favourite (different) restaurants for items like samosas, dal soup, korma, tikka, etc, etc. No one place is the best for all my favourite dishes.

Regards
George

[Cory Ander]

This is a great idea (in principle), guys.  It is one that Curry King has also already proposed for consideration.

It's also the underlying thinking behind the "cr0 recipes" section.

To my mind, if we do publish such a "book", in whatever format, we need to ensure that we do it to the best of our abilities.  Otherwise it will simply be bad advertising and publicity for this forum.

This means that it needs to be well presented, with clear, unambiguous, tried and tested and consistently written recipes, supplemented with decent photos.  I'm less sure that it would need too much in the way of additional "padding" (i.e. basic techniques, etc).

As a first step, I think this forum needs to package up some of its better recipes, in this manner, anyway.  Maybe Stew's menu idea will provide the framework for doing this, but the recipes will nevertheless still need to be selected and written in a consistent format.

Ultimately, like most things that take significant time and effort (and possibly money), talking about it is one thing, but making it happen is totally another.  200 quid sounds very cheap (for a third party) to me Stew.  I imagine this would involve very little more than just slapping what we already have into an ebook format?

Of course, we CAN START SMALL, and aim ONLY for a limited number of recipes in the first instance.  We might even only publish a curry base recipe with one or two supplementary main course recipes?

But, unless a champion of the cause (and probably several other people) are able to make a firm commitment to making it happen, it probably never will.

Any volunteers?

[Bobby Bhuna]

I understand the menu idea in principle, but don't think it can integrate with the forum. I also get a feeling it would look a little homespun. 200 pounds to knock that up is just silly. I'd quote half that to someone I had never even met. It's not even a days work.

Any volunteers?

I am up for sticking MediaWiki http://www.mediawiki.org on a box somewhere, giving a few of us who are up to the challenge access and then we can chip away at until we're happy with it. What do you think?

If Stew was interested, he could maybe even pop it in a folder in CR0 e.g. cr0.co.uk/wiki, just really to keep everything closely knit and keep admin control across all aspects of what we're doing in his trustworthy hands.

I don't know what Stews like with computers but if needed I am more than happy to assist in the initial installation. I imagine all it will take is say 50 MB of space and preferably its own mysql database - just to keep the forums data and wiki data separate.

I really feel that there is so much to be proud of on this forum but it's all hidden away for those who have the time and willingness to find it. I think if we put our minds together, (and there are obviously some smart people on this site, present threads company excluded ) we can come up with something to really outdo ourselves. Then with some sort of simple copyright technique we can call it ours and hopefully make it difficult for those people in the curry community who seem to take others for idiots to infringe on our offering.

I'm not suggesting it will happen overnight but with the wiki in place, there's no real time contraints, we can just aim for deadlines and if we can't make them, that's fine. It would also allows those invloved to view and comment what's going on throughout.