Topic: New Base Gravy from visit to Saffron

[Secret Santa]

Ooo err, it looks like I've rubbed the chuckle brothers up the wrong way.

Seriously though, the answer to your question about being able to use any base to be able to make a decent curry is simple. You get yourself 40 odd years of general cooking experience and knowledge along with nigh on 30 years of trying to get the BIR smell and taste (at which I have admittedly failed), mix it liberally with an energetic and enquiring mind and voila, you have someone who can turn the curry equivalent of a pig's ear into the proverbial silk purse. No secrets!


(To you, to me, to you ...) 

[SnS]

You get yourself 40 odd years of general cooking experience and knowledge along with nigh on 30 years of trying to get the BIR smell and taste (at which I have admittedly failed), mix it liberally with an energetic and enquiring mind and voila, you have someone who can turn the curry equivalent of a pig's ear into the proverbial silk purse. No secrets!

What a relief to hear that SS. I may be able to achieve your level in culinary skills and knowledge in just another 5 years then .. eh? 

I can make any one into a decent BIR style curry

Apparently not !!!!!

Regards

SnS  ;D

[haldi]

I'm sure I'll be able to do that soon (have to arrange it with Raj), but what I wanted to do first was iron out the creases in the existing gravy recipe so that it was bulletproof and not open to mistakes being made (eg: amount of water added to "cover" the veg, etc, etc). Many don't realise that this was a prototype and much of what I wrote down was from observation, and by no means accurate (as you know, they don't measure ingredients using tspns or tbspns). To do this I've got to make another batch (as shown by the saffron) but this time measuring/recording all the ingredients and times EXACTLY.
Best Regards
SnS

I reckon this base tastes very close to two places I got sample gravies from
The vegetable ingredients certainly are the same
I must admit I thought that the madras recipe was something the Saffron chefs showed you too
The fact it wasn't, actually encourages me
I like to follow recipes exactly and don't want to experiment without reason
I would rather use a genuine Saffron madras curry recipe, but without one available, I would cook a curry like Stu (admin) did
And he seemed very happy with the result

Somebody else commented on this:-
The cooking smell of this curry gravy was really quite pleasant
Some bases have absolutely stunk, this didn't
Thanks again, I look forward to anything else you find out, and the results of you making the base yourself
By the way, I can't remember,  have you posted the Saffron spice mix for curries?
I got the mix ratio at my last demo
1 coriander,1 paprika,1 turmeric,1 madras curry powder and half cummin
All the curries I saw cooked that night, used about two desertspoons of spice mix.
And that's without any chilli powder
So I guess their base is quite underspiced

[SnS]

I must admit I thought that the madras recipe was something the Saffron chefs showed you too
The fact it wasn't, actually encourages me

Hi Haldi

The Madrad was demonstrated to me by the Saffron chef Anam, but very quickly as the Madras was actually for a customer. There were no measurements (done by eye), but it appeared to me that equal quantities of the 4 main spices were used. I tried it again at home with the approx amount of gravy they appeared to use and achieved what I thought was a reasonable curry. As I'd measured the amount of spices and gravy used (at home), that is what I used in the recipe that I posted. Obviously a slight adjustment was needed, as my last Madras (which was better, thanks to Jeera .. see below) used 0.75 tsp of coriander and turmeric, 0.5 tspn cumin and chilli per 200 ml gravy ... I also added 0.25 tsp garam masala ... and this achieved (to me) to be a perfectly acceptable Madras.

I really would like someone to come up with a really good accurate (prawn) Madras recipe for use the Saffron base though (Ast is in his curry laboratory soon .. so maybe we'll just have to wait for the Prof to post his results).

Best Regards

SnS  ;D

As I mentioned above, I made this yesterday and made it to the letter all with brand new fresh spices.

The base was very reminiscent of a very good KD version which I've had great success with in the past but with loads more depth and sweetness. I think the amount of salt in the watered down base was perfect too and it set things up for a promising final dish with no additional salt needed. I'm sure the paprika (not smoked version) is absolutely critical as I've have good results with Jaspers Munich base to - which was tremendous.

Anyway to the real test. I made 3 final chicken dishes - all bhoona type consistency.

Dish #1 - exactly as posted by SnS but omitted the chilli powder but used the 0.5 tsp of coriander/cumin/turmeric as indicated.

Result #1 - very very wonderful with hints/undertones of *the* taste. Verdict 90/100

Dish #2 - same as posted but with 0.25 tsp chilli powder, 0.75 tsp cumin/coriander/turmeric, tsp methi & tsp fresh coriander.

Result #2 - awesome taste. I may have been lucky that I hit the cooking sweet spot but this was BIR class whatever made the difference. Lovely sweet, spiced and huge depth. Verdict 97/100

Dish 3. as #2 but with tsp chilli powder and 1 tsp cumin/coriander/turmeric.

Result #3 - OK, good but overspiced (not in the hot way)and ultimately much like may of my previous attempts. Verdict 80/100


So all in all this is a classy piece of work and I'm 100% convinced this would be an awesome base to get slight modifications on the final dish - Per CA's recent suggestion. Next I will try #2 but with 0.25 tsp garamasala.

Well done SnS, mega mate.

PS. Ast the base and final looked exactly like yours - nice shots btw.

[ast]

I really would like someone to come up with a really good accurate (prawn) Madras recipe for use the Saffron base though (Ast is in his curry laboratory soon .. so maybe we'll just have to wait for the Prof to post his results).

By all means, don't wait on me.  If someone has something that works for them, please post it.  My guess from recent discussions here and in other threads, we'll probably have a few variations between us anyway to cater for personal tastes and expectations.

All I was saying was that I would share what I came up with, but apart from also trying what Jeera indicated (sans the garam masala) as a starting point, I'm primarily chasing a lamb and chicken vindaloo which, when I get there, I'll also make sure works as a madras for my wife.  I'm not too big on seafood in my BIR dishes, so the fields wide open, as they say.  Some of the things I'm going to be evaluating when I get a chance will be the effect of some of the many spice mixes on the final dish.

It may take awhile before I hit the curry sweet spot.  No sense in any of us starving in the meantime! ;D

Cheers,

ast

[ast]

deet..deet..duh..deet..deet...deet...deet...This just in... the latest results from the curry lab...

Ok, so you'll have to improvise on the sound effects yourselves--think Robin Williams in Good Morning Vietnam.

Wanted to post this so I don't lose it amongst all of my recent notes.  I've been trying a few different things over the past couple of days, and I think this one turned out absolutely brilliantly (of course, after eating this many curries lately, my objectivity may be slipping a little...).  I don't think this is a stopping point because I'm still working on my overall technique and exploring the different effects of spices, etc., but I think I *could* stop here and be pretty happy.

I'd be interested in feedback if anyone else tries this recipe.  From here on, the only variables will be experimenting with different spice mixes.  I'd experimented with vinegar and/or Worcestershire sauce, but neither seemed to really add all that much.  I may try again at some stage, but as a second pass.

I've also tried this with chicken and it works equally well, although pre-cooking didn't use the same ingredients.  This time I only added 1 tsp turmeric to CK's chicken method (I mentioned this previously somewhere in the thread, I think).

Unfortunately, I haven't tried this at Madras heat levels yet, so I'm not sure how well the flavors balance in that case.  I promise that I will try it soon, though.
 
Andrew's Latest Lamb Vindaloo (Jan 22 edition)

INGREDIENTS

200ml Saffron curry base (shaken, not stirred.... )
3 tbsp vegetable oil (see note 1)
1/4 cooking onion, chopped (approx 40g or so)
2 tbsp minced garlic (approx 2-4 cloves, depending on their size)
1 pre-boiled (but not quite cooked completely), small salad potato, halved
60-80g pre-cooked lamb (see note 2)
60ml lamb stock
2 tsp tomato puree (double-concentrate)
8 small green chillies, thinly sliced (see note 3)
2 tsp extra hot chilli powder (see note 4)
1 large pinch of dried methi leaves

"Haldi's Takeaway" Spice Mix (courtesy of Haldi's recent posts)

1/2 tsp turmeric
1/2 tsp corriander powder
1/2 tsp paprika
1/2 tsp Madras curry powder (see note 5)
1/4 tsp ground cumin

METHOD (basically the same as in the original Madras recipe)

Heat a heavy pan on med-high heat until hot.  Add the oil and wait until it starts moving easily around the pan, but isn't smoking.  Add the onion and garlic and sautee until just beginning to change color.  Add the dry spices and stir continuously, making sure not to burn them.  Wait until you can't breathe and then continue to cook them a bit longer, adding a little base if necessary.

Add the base and stir well to evenly mix the spices and the curry base.  Stir in the tomato paste.  When mixed well, add the chillies, lamb, lamb stock and the potato.  Bring to an energetic boil and reduce to medium.  Stir occasionally to check the consistency.  After about 5 min, stir in the dried methi and reduce to desired consistency, adding some water if it gets too dry.

Sprinkle with coriander leaves (freshly chopped or dry) and serve.

Note 1:

It seems that after freezing this base, the oil doesn't want to separate like it used too.  I know I'm cooking it the same way as before, but I've tended to end up with a tad drier curries trying to wait for the oil to separate.  It still does, but there just doesn't seem to be as much of it.  If you're using fresh, e.g. not frozen, curry base, you can reduce this amount to 2 tsp.

Has anyone else noticed this problem?

Note 2:

I used Curry King's method for cooking lamb (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1915.0.html), except that I used 6 green pods, 5-6 small pieces of cassia bark, no ginger, 1 tsp of turmeric, 2 tsp of garam masala instead of the cumin/coriander mix and a large pinch of dried methi leaves.  There was about 650g of lamb which  was boiled on low for 1 hr and was also boiled with the hip bone and the hock ligaments.

Note 3:

I've no idea what they're called, but they look like this:  http://indianfoodrocks.blogspot.com/2007/10/make-your-green-chillies-last-longer.html

Note 4:

I think what I bought is Raj, but I forgot to write it down before I threw away the package.  It seems to have quite a bit of cayenne in it from both the color and the taste.  I'd say it'd be *roughly* equivalent to 4 tsp of Schwartz hot chilli powder and 1-2 tsp of pure cayenne powder as this was about what I was using before I went shopping at a real spice store.

Note 5:

One of the things I didn't buy when I was at the Indian grocer was Madras curry powder, so I cheated and used Schwartz's Medium Curry Powder.  Probably nowhere close, but it's all I had.

[SnS]

Nice one AST .. great report. I'll probably try this over the weekend (maybe with prawns though).

It seems that after freezing this base, the oil doesn't want to separate like it used too.  I know I'm cooking it the same way as before, but I've tended to end up with a tad drier curries trying to wait for the oil to separate.

I have also noticed this. Perhaps this is why Raj reckoned the gravy is not as good after freezing it. I wonder what would happen if the gravy was brought back to the boil before using in the curry ?

60ml lamb stock

How did you make this stock ?

I've no idea what they're called, but they look like this

They look like green Thai Dragon chillies (about 2-3 inches long (?) and 6 times hotter than Jalepeno). Did you also use the seeds ?

What ... no sooperpics 

Regards

SnS  ;D

[ast]

Nice one AST .. great report. I'll probably try this over the weekend (maybe with prawns though).

Thanks.  I've a thought or two around your prawn problem.  Have you tried a small bit of either ambchoor or tamarind?  Might be interesting.  Next time we see some decent prawns, I might have a go and see.

It seems that after freezing this base, the oil doesn't want to separate like it used too.  I know I'm cooking it the same way as before, but I've tended to end up with a tad drier curries trying to wait for the oil to separate.

I have also noticed this. Perhaps this is why Raj reckoned the gravy is not as good after freezing it. I wonder what would happen if the gravy was brought back to the boil before using in the curry ?

I was thinking the same thing, but I haven't been quite that organized.  It's just soooo much simpler to pour it out of the bottle than mess with small amounts in a pot.

60ml lamb stock

How did you make this stock ?

This is the stock obtained from pre-cooking the lamb.  I've taken to reserving the appropriate amount with single or double-sized portions of meat in the freezer.  It works equally well with the chicken too, but my chicken was needing to be eaten or frozen, and I *really* wanted to see how it worked with lamb instead (a fella can only eat so much chicken in a week...).

I've no idea what they're called, but they look like this

They look like green Thai Dragon chillies (about 2-3 inches long (?) and 6 times hotter than Jalepeno). Did you also use the seeds ?

Thanks for that.  They weren't exactly labeled in the shop, and I've had a tough time trying to find them on the Web.  I'm pretty sure these are the same ones that the chef at Jewel in the Crown (the place I like) uses in my vindaloo.  I always use the seeds and cut them so they're in small rings about 2-3mm wide.  Apparently from what I've read, it's the membrane inside that has all the "power of the pepper" rather than the seeds.  Still, I like the seeds...

What ... no sooperpics 

Next batch--I promise!

I got it a tad dry cause I was messing with the camera, and my rice looked a bit naff this time around (tried to rush it and it showed).  I still haven't managed to be brave enough to try and snap a picture of the spices when using them dry.  I've got the touch down pretty well now, but it takes a bit more attention than if you make the paste first.

Any preferences for what you want to see?  I have taken pics of most of the intermediate iterations, but they tend to all look the same after awhile:  same pan, same meat, etc., etc.  I figure unless I do something dramatically differently, an "ingredients" shot, maybe a shot of what it looks like when I add the methi (since I don't time anything), finished in the pan and the presented dish?  That's 4, and it'll montage easily enough.  I don't want people getting bored, and I sure don't want to post pictures just for the sake of it.

I've also been thinking about the volume of the spices used.  If you add it all up, the amount of spice mix I posted is 2 1/4 tsp.  I'm not sure yet if this is the right amount, but I know it isn't the wrong amount.  From all of the observed reports as well as from some of the videos, the chefs generally dip the chefs spoon into the spice container and come out with an arc that doesn't seem to go past 1/3 to 1/2 of the whole spoon.  Who knows what amount this is.

From other discussions about the sizes of professional chef utensils, they seem to range from around 150-200ml.  Doing the math, that's gotta mean that the above is a tad under-spiced--assuming the amount of curry base used is 200ml.  If it's 400ml, that's something different indeed, and the proportions could be nearly right.

Part of my plan is to somehow start dropping in to my fav restaurant again.  It's about 40-45 on the train now to get there, but I'm sure that since the chef was interested enough to come out and talk to me before, he'd be interested and willing to share some information too (provided he's still working there).  Until then, if anyone else has any insights, I'd love to hear them.

One other thing I've been thinking about is whether or not the flavors should be balanced relative to each other or relative to the curry base.  I'm a bit of two minds on this one, and it's one of the things I intend to try, meaning, if you add more heat, should/can you also increase the amount of base spices by some proportion so that the flavor remains somewhat constant (or your taste buds explode, whichever happens first! ;D)

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with the recipe.  I may be cooking curry for a friend towards the end of the week which means I'll be thawing out my last bottle of base.  If that happens, I'll re-boil the whole lot and pour it back in the bottle to test the oil theory.

I'm sure it would add to the taste, but I was reading some about using tamarind and ambchoor as preservation agents in traditional Indian dishes.  Maybe adding some to the base might mean you could keep it in the fridge longer.  I've also run across a link indicating that tamarind's used in the "real" Goan version of Vindaloo, so I might give that a go too, but I don't have any at the moment.

Some interesting stuff here on both spices you may or may not know:

Tamarind: http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Tama_ind.html
Ambchoor: http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Mang_ind.html

Cheers,

ast

[SnS]

Have you tried a small bit of either ambchoor or tamarind?

I used tamerind concentrate when I cooked a Pathia a few weeks back but I'm sure most BIR's use lemon juice. Amchoor (green mango powder) is on my shopping list, as I gather it has both a sweet and sour taste, maybe suitable for Pathia.

Apparently from what I've read, it's the membrane inside that has all the "power of the pepper" rather than the seeds.  Still, I like the seeds...

Yup it's the fleshy vein that holds the seeds (placenta) that is the hottest part, not the actual seeds as many think. I do prefer the seeds taken out though. Makes the curry a bit crunchy - particularly if the chilli pod contains many seeds.

Any preferences for what you want to see?

Personally, just the finished article - but I suppose others would be interested in seeing pictures at the various stages.

From all of the observed reports as well as from some of the videos, the chefs generally dip the chefs spoon into the spice container and come out with an arc that doesn't seem to go past 1/3 to 1/2 of the whole spoon.  Who knows what amount this is.

That's why it was impossible to get the recipe measurements exact at my initial visit!  :


Regards

SnS ;D

[ast]

Have you tried a small bit of either ambchoor or tamarind?

I used tamerind concentrate when I cooked a Pathia a few weeks back but I'm sure most BIR's use lemon juice. Amchoor (green mango powder) is on my shopping list, as I gather it has both a sweet and sour taste, maybe suitable for Pathia.

Never had nor made a Pathia before.  Lemon juice was on the list, but it somehow seems to have fallen off.  I did buy the lemons, but I keep forgetting about it.  Still, I've never personally noticed much of a sour taste in my vindaloo.

I bought the amchoor (I've seen at least 7 different spellings of this, btw) for another recipe, but it doesn't use that much.  The only pack they had was large enough that I'm trying to work out what else I can do with it so I can use it before the BBE date.  From reading about it and its taste characteristics, I thought it might be an interesting taste with the prawns.  On its own, it isn't bad, but only in small-ish quantities.  I haven't actually used it yet, though.

From all of the observed reports as well as from some of the videos, the chefs generally dip the chefs spoon into the spice container and come out with an arc that doesn't seem to go past 1/3 to 1/2 of the whole spoon.  Who knows what amount this is.

That's why it was impossible to get the recipe measurements exact at my initial visit!  :

I know... it was rhetorical, but those damn sound effects seem to be broken today! ;D