Why we cannot produce that missing taste ?

[haldi]

it's getting more intriguing this post.

Haldi can we put u on the spot - appreciating it's difficult but can u try to explain how the BIR base differs from those on the site. i guess what does this

extra unidentifiable taste

do for your taste buds.


on a specific for me (having not tasted a BIR base - and i will try to) i'm not sure if this extra taste is in the base or the oil (of the finished curry) and would appreciate your thoughts specifically on this.

I know some people who don't notice this taste
I frequently make curries for my family and they say they are restaurant quality.
I know that they are not
If I serve them alongside a bought curry, the bought curry has this extra taste and is (sadly) superior
This taste is in the base
To me it's the nicest thing about a curry
It's the very reason why I buy them
But to the question of how does a bought base differ from the recipes we have on here?
The answer is that they are almost identical, in spiceyness, consitancy and look.
But the bought one has an extra flavour after you swallow it.
It hits you at the back of the throat and somehow you seem to smell it too.
It's not a fresh taste,like a late addition to the base.
It's a well cooked taste
I have spent about 800 pounds now on BIR equipment (tandoor & natural gas restaurant hob)
Technically speaking I should be able to duplicate this, but I still can't.

can that minor difference in the taste of the base really account for all those amazing missing flavors in the final curries?  surely its the spicing which is what we are not grasping correctly yet? and technique to some extent.   

I have been open to new ideas, and have experimented with all manner of cooking tecniques, but what I have recently seen and discovered, washed those idea all away.

This amounts to two things
Firstly that as soon as you heat ,a bought curry gravy in a pan, you get an aroma that you never get with home made gravy

Secondly when I see a chef simply heat some curry gravy up with a little spice and he gets an amazing result, then I don't think tecnique matters too much

I have been chasing this for so long
I may not ever make any great achievements, but this is something I must get right
I have a full size base recipe I saw cooked, I shall, after double checking a few things, make this.
I will report any success or failure
If that doesn't work then I shall see if I can pay someone to show me

Does anyone know a BIR manager well enough to get an invite? I believe the only way we can get to the bottom of this is to spend time in a BIR Kitchen.

I know people, but they speak very limited English, so to learn anything you really have to see it
The base takes about two or three hours to cook and it is normally a two day affair.
You never see it completely done so I never know if there is a missing piece of information.
I've seen it made just prior to the blending stage
I seen it being blended another day
But did anything happen in between?

[matt3333]

Haldi
Your passion is infectious, I truly hope you find the answer.
Matt

[Jeera]

Haldi, have you ever tried Jaspers Munich base ? I got really really good results from that - I'm sure it was the paprika that made the difference. I suggest we use that as a new starting point for experimentation.

It's good to see confirmation the base is the real key.

In terms of that 0.5% missing taste - my head says Paprika, Ajowan, beef stock and Asafoetida (poppadom ingredient) in the correct quantities. Quite what those quantities are eludes me.

PS. No vegetarian flaming please :-)

[haldi]

Haldi, have you ever tried Jaspers Munich base ? I got really really good results from that
In terms of that 0.5% missing taste - my head says Paprika, Ajowan, beef stock and Asafoetida (poppadom ingredient) in the correct quantities. Quite what those quantities are eludes me.

I've not tried the "Jasper" base yet and I do wonder about asafoetida.
I don't know at what stage you would use that though.
I had a chat about the full size base with a chef, last night.
I'm going to try a full size version this weekend,
It was a quiet night and I saw a vindaloo cooked (no surpises in the recipe)
The aroma from this takeaway's heated base was to die for
I hope I end up with that
It won't cost that much to make (probably about five pounds) but I just want it to work so much

[JerryM]

Haldi,

i do wish you success in the full size base although gut feeling says it's not the answer. i'm focusing now on your quote that it's not for sure a missing ingredient but more likely circumstantial.

ie the popadom oil sounds a candidate. the reason for my earlier question on where the taste difference is relates to oil - when i taste my spiced oil c/w real BIR there is a difference which i know results in both aroma and taste.

how they deal with making a new base and keeping the orders going on the last base is intriguing - i am sure my TA has only 1 pot but maybe another is in the back. the owners travel each day so unless they have an extra stove in the back do all the cooking in the front - there would be no room for an extra pot and cook at the same time. irrespective of this putting old into new would solve scooping the last few ladles out of the pot.

although this is appealing having always kept my bases in the fridge for upto 2 wks i would say the flavour deteriates with time (starting after 3days) - so gut feeling struggles with this even though the BIR turnover would be daily or 2days as decreasing proportions of older base would remain for several days.

on the other hand my spiced oil is never any good on the 1st go - it needs to recycle into several bases before it starts to get close to real BIR. given your comment that it is an after taste long in the pot then oil would fit the bill. for me spiced oil has made a big step difference in the curry taste.

Dereks' taste test sits well with me

the bir base was mild spiced and fairly bland. a bit more of a taste of chicken than safron. and slightly more sour. but not that different

i think stock may be used by some but i am pretty sure taste wise it's not in the curries that i like. stock is very important in cooking but not for me in curry. i tried currytesters base which involves boiling a carcass - it was too strong and going away from the BIR taste i've been brought up on.

Jeera adds to the equation Paprika, Ajowan, beef stock and Asafoetida. i too feel paprika to be important (in the oil intensity). the ajowan is not the missing thing - i do use it and it's very good in ifndforu's base. i have asafoetida on my shopping list as soon as i can get to my local asian store (along with bassar spice mix and kashmiri mirch).

in short i'm going to increase the paprika in my next adapted CRO2 base, add 50% less bulk veg limited to green pepper and coriander stalks

i'm still not sure on puncturing say 2 off green chilli's and remove prior to blend - Haldi/DD do you feel there is any chilli in the real BIR base.

[Bobby Bhuna]

along with bassar spice mix and kashmiri mirch

I didn't notice much from the Bassar Masala. I sometimes add half a tsp along with the B.E. spice mix and don't notice much of a difference. It's got a lot of chilli in it so it adds quite a bit of heat.

I do really like the flavour of Kashmiri Mirch though. Yum! ;D

[Bobby Bhuna]

I am sold on the oil thing though. Think of all the lovely flavours in the fryer oil. Pakora, Bhajis, Popadums and lots more. Lol, Haldi, what's the chance you can buy, or otherwise lay your hands on a portion of fryer oil?

That said, do they use veg oil in their fryers, or hydrogenated vegetable shortening like they do in BK / McDonalds?

[Derek Dansak]

My progress on the bir-ometer has been rather lacking recently, so i blagged another demo at my favourite bir last night. I really hate to say this, but the owner (who i know really well) and the chef, doubted it can be done at home. I think thats why they dont really care if i observe them at work in the kitchen. because they know, theres not much i can do without the full gas cooker set up. Both chefs thought the real gas cooker gave it that extra ummf you need for the full flavour. I came away a bit disapointed, but am still going to carry on trying to get the best results possible on my electric cooker in bir style. I will write up a few new tips i picked up during the demo, today or tommorrow. I tasted the ingredients in the tubs they use, and there is DEFINATLY no secret ingredient. its just bog standard stuff. I also showed him the safron base recipe,  and he gave it the thumbs up, with a few modifications i will post tommorrow. Cheers DD 

[Yousef]

Derek Dansak,

Take the video camera next time and upload the footage here so we can see a base in action being made.
I am not sold on the gas cooker thing yes gas is better than electric.  I still think the pan has something to do with it, i have thrown my wok out and now use a sauce pan....i think everyone should purchase a proper curry chefs pan as well.

Lets face it when we cook at home you need to have confidence...as Haldi eludes the curry men just bung ingredients in and leave it fiercely bubling away, now how many can honestly say they do they?  I bet most chefs cant resist stirring and generally interfering in the cooking process...I am guilty.

I also think its timing and knowing how to release the full spices aroma.
One interesting thing was stated about asfoedeta, perhaps this could be something as i saw a prawn madras curry cooked once and at the end just before the lid went on the takeway dish they put a chefs spoon of white powder on top...i thought it was MSG but perhaps it was asfoediata......could be one to try.

Stew

[Derek Dansak]

Hi Stew,

I think you are right about the pan rather than wok. its on my list of things to buy next. The closer we replicate the real bir chef cooking tools, the better. The comment about the bir chef cooking style is soo true. They pump up the heat, and just blitz the whole dam thing for quite a while. Nothing like my approach so far. They definatly reduce the base a lot via evaporation (as jerry so rightly said). the bir chef actually said this is essential in many dishes to get the flavour. He called it 'drying out'. I tried a third of a tsp of astofoeda in the curry dish stage, and it was horrid. really sour. i think it clashes with garlic and ginger big time.