Topic: Despicable!....but Anyone had a Rummage?

[Cory Ander]

Hi All,

Has anyone ever been despicable enough to rummage through the waste bins of Indian restaurants (you know, the big bins, out the back)?  ;D  If so, what have you found regarding the ingredients and brands that they use?

Failing that (for the less despicable amongst us!) what have you observed in their kitchens?

In particular, I'm thinking of confirmation of the types of ingredients that they use?  For example:

• Oil or ghee?
• Bottled curry pastes or curry powders?
• Commercially prepared curry powders or individual spice powders?
• Commercially supplied spice powders or freshly gound whole spices?
• Individual whole spices of commercially supplied mixtures?
• Commercially prepared (eg bottled purees or pre-peeled) or fresh garlic and ginger?
• Tinned tomatoes or purees/pastes or fresh?
• Tinned or dried lentils?
• Bottled or dried or fresh mint?
• Bottle or fresh lemon and lime juices?
• Dried (ie leaves) or powdered  or fresh fenugreek?
• Desiccated or creamed or tinned or fresh coconut ?
• Artificial or natural food colours?
• etc

Unfortunatley, I am not currently in the UK......otherwise I'd definately be doing it myself ('cause I'm truly despicable!).   

I'd imagine you'd find lots of evidence of the ingredients and brands that they use......

Despicable, I know, but just a thought!.....  :

[Chilli Prawn]

How do you thing competitive restaurants discover what is going on Layne?  Yes they do use all or some of your list.  It depends on the chef, the area the outlet is based (social needy, middle class, wealthy), i.e. they have to be both price conscious and therefore moderate their costs versus profit accordingly.

We seem to be getting very hung up on purist points; the holy grail thing.  As I have said before, you need to learn the cooking techniques used in BIRs and adapt them (if need be ) to your own cooking environment.  The ingredients are not always that important to a BIR, it is the quality of the Chef and what he or she chooses to use to make the mark.  I not that some of the 'Old Hands' here consistently remind members of these points.  It is practice, practice, practice; I got my confidence when I started to get Asian friends asking me for my recipes, and paying me compliments rather than the other way around.

Be patient and practice your techniques and happy cooking
C P

But what the heck, this is a great debate, and I have been part of the global bit since I originally started curry making back in the 60s.  I got a little worried at one time because I thought it would take precedence over beer, but thankfully beer won!!

[Chilli Prawn]

Just a point on powdered Ginger and Powdered Garlic.  You might frown on their use, but they have been staple ingredients for Asian cooking on the Indian Continent forever!  They are very important ingredients for Madras regional dishes and some Kashmiri dishes.  One of my Indian chef friends swore that the only way to make a decent BIR Madras or Vindaloo was to use powdered garlic and ginger (with his base of course), sometime uses a bland flavoured paprika powder to give it more bulk and colour.

So are we chasing what in fact Indian restaurants use, what is used in traditional/ethnic curries, or what we need to use in our homes to recreate those flavours and aromas?

Perplexed for a bit

Happy Adventuring
C P

[Cory Ander]

...So are we chasing what in fact Indian restaurants use, what is used in traditional/ethnic curries, or what we need to use in our homes to recreate those flavours and aromas?

Perplexed for a bit

Please don't be perplexed CP!   

It is very clear to me what I am after.....

.....what, in fact , run-of-the-mill high-street (i.e. good), British Indian Restaurants use as ingredients (and techniques of course).  The taste, aroma and appearance, that they thereby create, is what I wish to recreate at home!  I am absolutely certain that I will only be able to recreate these using similar ingredients and techniques to those used by BIRs!

To this end, I am interested in what members here have observed.....as fact....regarding the ingredients that BIRs use.

I hope this clarifies the intent of my question?

Happy cooking! 

PS:  You see....it's......."THAT ELUSIVE BIR TASTE" that I'm after! 

PPS:  Thank you for your posts CP!  They are very interesting and informative 

[currychris]

I have spotted big tubs of Khyber vegetable ghee  outside my local Indian restaurant and so that is what I use!. I am also sure that powdered garlic or garlic granules are used  as well as fresh garlic in the cooking of a typical BIR dish.

You know, it's amazing how many times over the last 20 years or so I have bought a new book or seen a recipe and thought WOW... Yes that is it...that is the secret!!...only to be disappointed at  the end result. With this site I am getting excited again as there are quite a few ingredients, tips and ideas I hadn't thought of or tried out yet. So this weekend I will be bringing out the 'big pan' again, crying into my onions and opening  the kitchen windows and door!...or should I just get a takeout...only joking of course, slap my wrists  :-X

[currychris]

Hi All,

Has anyone ever been despicable enough to rummage through the waste bins of Indian restaurants (you know, the big bins, out the back)?  ;D  If so, what have you found regarding the ingredients and brands that they use?

...You haven't have you Cory Ander?

[Chilli Prawn]

It is OK Cory A, I am not offended, in fact flattered.  I think you are absolutely correct with your observations on the ingredients used by BIRs.  But it is not purist, there is no simple answer, and technique and equipment play a major part in creating 'that taste'.

I am a sort of BIR with a different approach, but I do take-aways, banquets etc as a professional business; I turned professional about 6 years ago.  Our new kitchen was built to support the business, but we made some minor mistakes and one big one - we bought a domestic look-alike range cooker (cheaper) which is almost a complete failure, so we shall replace it with a professional one at some point.

I too have searched for that Holy Grail, and I am happy now with my own selection of bases and the Ultimate of course, as they satisfy the needs of my local market.  My customers no longer go to the other takeaways/restaurants in the local towns and villages as the norm, so we must have got something right.  They like your good self were our driving force desperate for us to produce that curry house taste before they would make the leap.  NO, to be honest we haven't cracked it... yet; we are nearly there and with the new cooker we shall.

We are thinking of opening a full blown Takeaway or maybe even a small restaurant, because we have a lot of backers financial and other wise.  I only mention this because I do understand what you are searching for, and yes I have done a lot of observation and talking in the past, and it is different with each BIR.  I have even been offered membership of the Guild of Bangladesh Restaurateurs, and may take it to see if it opens the secrets door!

If you wish, I will post on the 'Hints and Tips' what I know to be the standard ingredients, but they will be my list and each BIR will be different.  By the way one of the key differentiators, which I have not seen emphasised enough here, is the Gram Masala.  This is usually the Chefs signature and what makes one BIR different from another.

As you know the vast majority of restaurants and takeaways are Bangladeshi, and thus the dishes are almost identical in every one of them, so if you crack one you have got the basics for them all.  They have their own food associations and journals and share the information we seek between them on the QT of course. 

The great variations in dishes arise in the Kashmiri, Nepalese, Indian and Pakistani restaurants, but they sadly are rare, usually very up market or embedded in the appropriate Asian domestic/work communities.  This is my area of speciality as I tend to use their techniques ingredients and flavours; that is what differentiates me for the mob here!  Mind you we only have one or two decent BIRs on the Island (besides mine of course  ;D)

Sorry to be long winded but I thought I should put forward a professional view, and of course I will help in any way I can to find the HG of Birs (if there really is such a thing).

Keep up your excellent work and I am sure you will teach me a few things, I am always learning!!  I am certainly going to try the recipes.  By the way, my quest is for fast cooked dishes with the taste and I would appreciate any recipes methods that focus on them.

Happy questing
C P

[Ashes]

Hi CP!

I posted this a while ago, if you havent tried it, i would recommend you do - This is probably my favourite garam masala, very different from the norm.

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=491.0

Regards Ashes

[Cory Ander]

So, Chris has spotted big tubs of vegetable ghee and is pretty sure that BIRs use this.......thanks Chris 

.....but what are you saying, CP and Ashes?......That you've rummaged through the waste bins of run-of-the-mill high-street BIRs and seen (or observed in  their kitchens) that they use Garam Masala? 

For me, I am interested in Bangladeshi BIR ingredients and techniques because they, as far as I understand it (and as you rightly point out CP) consitute the vast majority of BIRs in Britain.  And, as you also rightly point out CP, "the dishes are almost identical in every one of them, so if you crack one you have got the basics for them all"....I totally agree! 

So, any advances on vegetable ghee anyone?.........

 

[Chilli Prawn]

Hey this is good, because as a newbie to the Forum I am not sure as what has gone before and how we all tick.

I will tell you what is in my main spice cupboard and later what is in my special spice cupboard (those I use for special dishes).  These are mainly big jars holding 1/2 to 1KG of dry ingredients.  These I know you will find on all BIR shelves.  The ones with stars (*) are used in the final dish production, the others are ones used in initial or final production processes. I guess there will be no suprises!

* White Cumin seed
Black cumin seeds
* Ground Coriander
Coriander seeds
* Fresh Coriander
Mace Blades
Whole Nutmeg
Cassia bark
Cinnamon bark
* Cinnamon powder
Cloves
* Clove powder
Cardamom green pods
Cardamom brown pods
* Cardamom powder
Methi seeds
Methi leaves
* Methi ground
* Garlic powder
* Garlic granules/salt
* fresh coriander
Ginger Powder
Bay leaves
* Panch Phoran mix
* dried curry leaves
* fresh curry leaves when available
Whole black pepper
Cracked black pepper
Sea salt
Hot Chillies whole dry
Mild Chillies whole dry
* Mid-heat cherry chillies whole dry
* Cayenne
* Paprika mild
* paprika strong (not roasted)
Amchur
Kalonji
Allspice berries
Turmeric
* Mexican chilli seeds
* Seschuan peppercorns
Fennel seeds
Yellow mustard seeds
* Brown mustard seeds
* Black mustard seeds
Ajwain
Chickpeas dried
Pomegranate seeds
melon seeds
Pumpkin seeds
Various Garam Masalas
Various curry powders

And that is just one cupboard!  We do Mexican and Chinese which account for a couple of the ingredients (sorry).  But I bet if you walk in to any BIR kitchen this is what you will find.  Normally they will have pots of various dry spices, masalas, and pastes around the cooker, as well as their bases and warm oil.  I got most of the info because I was invited around a lot of kitchens at one time until the Health and Hygiene people tightened up, so as I worked for Local government as a Consultant and then as a paid officer I used to ask the Health & Hygiene guys to check out what they keep on the shelves!

As far as oils are concerned there are three basic used, vegetable, groundnut, and mustard.  Mustard has been officially banned by the EC because there is a suspicion that one of the acids in it might faintly be near to or slightly carcinogenic.  I have spoke to the chief scientist of the company that makes it in UK (Aintree Liverpool) and he says it is a load of rubbish and quite safe.  Mustard oil is mainly used in pickles but quite good for Madras or Vindaloo in small doses.

The reason for using Ghees is that they have an extremely high smoke and flash point, much higher that oils, and they also retain their chemical composition unlike oils that can become toxic.  I use Veg and Butter ghee, most restaurants use veg ghee.

I am not sure if it is this thread but the reason you do not see whole spices in the curry very often is because the general public do not like them, they can be dangerous (choking), or they are ground up in the final base making process.  It is safer all round not to leave them in; we extract most of them before we serve.

Hope this helps in some way.

Happy Cooking
C P