Quote from: JerryM on December 30, 2011, 10:04 AM
i feel my planned ashoka revisit is my biggest need (sauces and pastes, recipe refinement). the arbitrary 95% is like fell walking the ground starts off pretty much flat and a lot of ground can be covered relatively quickly.

this final gap of say 5% is far more tricky - i see it as not much ground to cover but the peaks are high.

my gut feeling is that this 5% breaks down into something like:

1% equipment
1% technique
1% sauces and pastes
1% recipe refinement
1% mix powder

given the mix powder was quite a surprise my inherent fear of missing a trick has resurfaced (you think you know but you don't) - hence the post

the 5% could be as much as 10% for example although i doubt it. is there a no 6 & 7 say.

thoughts that immediately come to mind that have gone off my radar (the 5% constituents) being:

a) things BIR's do through operation that home cooking would not naturally come across
b) things that are not discarded

i'm essentially after a sanity check so any thoughts much appreciated

Hi Jerry

I completely agree with your comments above and have spent the last couple of days pondering my own errors and techniques in search of answers, I drew some conclusions, made a chicken tikka jalfrezi last night and it was my best effort to date, If I can replicate this time after time then I'm a happy chappie, and will only search for enhancements etc.

My initial thoughts were with the gravy. this time I made ifindforu's enhanced gravy (the best i can interpret it), It came out very good, but in truth wasn't a great deal different to the others i've tried.

I noticed that there isn't a lot of spices going into that gravy, whereas julian seems to put loads in, so my conclusion on that one was, I need more mixed powder in the curries I make, not the half to one tsp as some recipes suggest. (now upped to heaped tsp)

Lesson learnt for me, difficult to get the spicing right using a different base to someones curry recipe, ie check if more mixed powder needed when using a lightly spiced base.

Another thing I noticed is my chef spoon doesn't look as deep as the pro chefs spoons, so added a touch more ingredient when chef's spoon measurements called for.

My kitchen ladle is nowhere near the size of the ones used in all the videos and on close inspection I guestimated about 3 of mine to 1 of theirs (i knew it was smaller but didn't envisage that much). When using 2 ladle fulls to make a curry this is a significant discrepancy.

I used the one (3 of mine)  ladle reduction technique and am well happy with the result now

All cooked with razor's tip of clothes peg on nose! lol

Good post Whandsy.  I think what you've highlighted here are the inconsistencies that can creep in without us even realising.  But when you think about it, these can have a huge impact on the result and what you are trying to achieve.  We all think certain people are sometimes a bit anal in their questionning and approach but in reality they are just trying to remove any variables which can only help in achieving consistent results.

Quote from: Whandsy on December 30, 2011, 11:28 AM

Hi Jerry

I completely agree with your comments above and have spent the last couple of days pondering my own errors and techniques in search of answers, I drew some conclusions, made a chicken tikka jalfrezi last night and it was my best effort to date, If I can replicate this time after time then I'm a happy chappie, and will only search for enhancements etc.

Quite a few forum members have been doing some pondering, myself included.  It is very much about getting the same result time after time.  My conclusion - this aint going to happen by switching gravies and mix powders every five minutes.  I therefore need to cook my regular dishes using my chosen base and spice mix only until i produce the same result every time.  Only then can i make a change and be able to truly assess the impact of it and whether i get better results by moving to another gravy or  spice mix.

Quote
My initial thoughts were with the gravy. this time I made ifindforu's enhanced gravy (the best i can interpret it), It came out very good, but in truth wasn't a great deal different to the others i've tried.

I think in general you are right.  Many of the gravies are similar, certainly in ingredients although not always in the technique of preparation.  Personally i want to do some work on the balance of ingredient and the impact that a change has.  When i look at my takeaway leftovers the consistancy of the cold sause is sometimes different to my own efforts, depending on what base i've used.  Why?   This can only be down to base ingredients.  I've looked at pictures of curries i've cooked, madras is a prime example.  Depending on what base i've used the appearance and texture is different.  Yet all bases got  a thorough blitzing from my jug blender and all curries are reduced to a thickish consistency which is how i like it

Quote
I noticed that there isn't a lot of spices going into that gravy, whereas julian seems to put loads in, so my conclusion on that one was, I need more mixed powder in the curries I make, not the half to one tsp as some recipes suggest. (now upped to heaped tsp)

I don't hold with the theory that recipes are specifically matched to a base, apart from Panpot's Ashoka collection which departs considerably from the normal BIR practice of one basic gravy.  But that doesn't mean all recipes go with any base.

Quote
Lesson learnt for me, difficult to get the spicing right using a different base to someones curry recipe, ie check if more mixed powder needed when using a lightly spiced base.

A careful balancing act here, very much driven by the base spicing.  My own preference is for a lighter spiced base allowing for greater versatility in the final cooking stages.  A heavier spiced base will be more difficult to influence

Quote
Another thing I noticed is my chef spoon doesn't look as deep as the pro chefs spoons, so added a touch more ingredient when chef's spoon measurements called for.


My kitchen ladle is nowhere near the size of the ones used in all the videos and on close inspection I guestimated about 3 of mine to 1 of theirs (i knew it was smaller but didn't envisage that much). When using 2 ladle fulls to make a curry this is a significant discrepancy.

An easy oversight but what a difference this can make.  And when realised and corrected

Quote
I used the one (3 of mine)  ladle reduction technique and am well happy with the result now

Quote
All cooked with razor's tip of clothes peg on nose! lol

I wish i'd done this last night.  Maybe it would have helped me reach some sort of conclusion on whether Abdul's madras was or was not better for the use of Ifindforu's spice mix .  But that's another story and god forbid i'd post comments in the wrong section of the forum ;D

Cheers CH

Funny you mentioned tom puree in your other post, and last night for the 1st time I used approx 1 heaped tsp straight from the tube as I normally dilute it.

I guess we're all looking for the same answers ;D

Wayne

Quote from: emin-j on December 30, 2011, 10:52 AM
Things that come to mind often regarding that 5%, BIR's use fresh Base Gravy ( not from frozen like most of us )
they also are using mostly fresh Spices due to the amount they get through not weeks or even months old stuff like I use anyway

None of those are issues for me.

I know Bruce Edwards is a big advocate of freshly made base gravy and he never freezes his. I've conducted a test with a freshly made batch and frozen and could tell no discernible difference between them. For me, I've discounted this as an issue.

Regarding fresh spices, I only ever buy whole spices for the vast majority of the spices I need and either roast and grind, or simply grind as and when they're needed to ensure maximum freshness. That includes chilli powder, which I make up my own blend from whole dried chillis. The only pre ground spices I buy are Turmeric, which is kinda difficult to buy whole and grind yourself and Paprika. All the others are always bought whole and I make up and grind my own Garam Masala as well.

Preground spices lose their pungency pretty quickly, whereas whole spices do not.

So again for me, this is not an issue as I'm using the freshest spices I can.

Quote from: spiceyokooko on December 30, 2011, 02:50 PM

Quote from: emin-j on December 30, 2011, 10:52 AM
Things that come to mind often regarding that 5%, BIR's use fresh Base Gravy ( not from frozen like most of us )
they also are using mostly fresh Spices due to the amount they get through not weeks or even months old stuff like I use anyway

None of those are issues for me.

I know Bruce Edwards is a big advocate of freshly made base gravy and he never freezes his. I've conducted a test with a freshly made batch and frozen and could tell no discernible difference between them. For me, I've discounted this as an issue.

Regarding fresh spices, I only ever buy whole spices for the vast majority of the spices I need and either roast and grind, or simply grind as and when they're needed to ensure maximum freshness. That includes chilli powder, which I make up my own blend from whole dried chillis. The only pre ground spices I buy are Turmeric, which is kinda difficult to buy whole and grind yourself and Paprika. All the others are always bought whole and I make up and grind my own Garam Masala as well.

Preground spices lose their pungency pretty quickly, whereas whole spices do not.

So again for me, this is not an issue as I'm using the freshest spices I can.

Good to read you had positive results with your side by side frozen vs fresh Base 
Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen  IMO    

Quote from: emin-j on December 30, 2011, 03:55 PM
Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen  IMO

So let me get this right.

Because a typical BIR uses preground spices, you feel that's what you need to do to get 'the taste' you're looking for, yet previously flagged up 'stale' spices as a potential for not getting 'the taste' you're looking for? You then reject the grinding of whole spices to produce fresh ones on the basis that because BIR's don't take the time and trouble to do this, it wouldn't produce 'the taste', despite guaranteeing fresh spices?

Common sense suggests your logic here is flawed. However, it is another example of the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' kind of attitude that prevails here.

It is not economically viable for BIR's in terms of manpower to grind their own spices to ensure freshness, the sheer turnover and volume of spices used would ensure that the spices purchased would be fresh. If they're not, their supply logistics is fubar'd. That is not the case for the majority of home cooks who simply do not get through the volume of preground spices to ensure their freshness other than throwing away an awful lot of spices on a regular basis and replacing them with fresh.

But to suggest that grinding your own spices to ensure freshness would not help you achieve the BIR 'taste', because it's not what BIR's do is nonsense in my opinion.

Quote from: spiceyokooko on December 30, 2011, 04:40 PM

Quote from: emin-j on December 30, 2011, 03:55 PM
Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen  IMO

So let me get this right.

QuoteBecause a typical BIR uses preground spices, you feel that's what you need to do to get 'the taste' you're looking for, yet previously flagged up 'stale' spices as a potential for not getting 'the taste' you're looking for? You then reject the grinding of whole spices to produce fresh ones on the basis that because BIR's don't take the time and trouble to do this, it wouldn't produce 'the taste', despite guaranteeing fresh spices?

Yes, we need to be as exact as we can when trying to emulate the BIR Curry even down to using the same make of spices that your favourite T/A uses, Rajah.Natco,Trs etc and Ifindforu has named Jalpur Garam Masala as a 'must have' also the Eastern Star Curry Powder seems interesting.
Yes stale spices could be a factor in the missing 5% and we should keep this in mind as we seem so close to ' the taste', using home roasted and ground spices I don't believe is the way forward.

Common sense suggests your logic here is flawed.

QuoteHowever, it is another example of the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' kind of attitude that prevails here.

Correct.

QuoteIt is not economically viable for BIR's in terms of manpower to grind their own spices to ensure freshness, the sheer turnover and volume of spices used would ensure that the spices purchased would be fresh.

Correct.

If they're not, their supply logistics is fubar'd.

QuoteThat is not the case for the majority of home cooks who simply do not get through the volume of preground spices to ensure their freshness other than throwing away an awful lot of spices on a regular basis and replacing them with fresh.

I buy my ground spices in 100gm packs two or three at a time rather than have a larger bag opened and hanging around losing flavour, I do have some spices that I rarely use but luckily these are whole spices.

But to suggest that grinding your own spices to ensure freshness would not help you achieve the BIR 'taste', because it's not what BIR's do is nonsense in my opinion.

Good luck grinding your Coconuts if you ever make a Korma 

Anybody got a recipe for achieving perfectly ground garlic powder ;D

Quote from: spiceyokooko on December 30, 2011, 04:40 PM

Quote from: emin-j on December 30, 2011, 03:55 PM
Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen  IMO

So let me get this right.

Because a typical BIR uses preground spices, you feel that's what you need to do to get 'the taste' you're looking for, yet previously flagged up 'stale' spices as a potential for not getting 'the taste' you're looking for? You then reject the grinding of whole spices to produce fresh ones on the basis that because BIR's don't take the time and trouble to do this, it wouldn't produce 'the taste', despite guaranteeing fresh spices?

Common sense suggests your logic here is flawed. However, it is another example of the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' kind of attitude that prevails here.

It is not economically viable for BIR's in terms of manpower to grind their own spices to ensure freshness, the sheer turnover and volume of spices used would ensure that the spices purchased would be fresh. If they're not, their supply logistics is fubar'd. That is not the case for the majority of home cooks who simply do not get through the volume of preground spices to ensure their freshness other than throwing away an awful lot of spices on a regular basis and replacing them with fresh.

But to suggest that grinding your own spices to ensure freshness would not help you achieve the BIR 'taste', because it's not what BIR's do is nonsense in my opinion.

Spicey, you seem very apt at telling everyone what they are doing wrong in you're opinion, or having a fantastic opinion on how things should be cooked or spices stored, whether it be fresh and grinded or pre ground and stored....

This forum has advanced over the years by a lot of people doing a lot of hard work in producing "BIR" food to the best of their abilities and helping others to achieve better results.....

Maybe it's time to put you're money where you're mouth is and start producing these amazing curries that you are archieving with all you're freshly ground spices etc etc and post some recipes along with pictures for everyone else to judge!!

We eagerly await.....

Quote from: curryhell on December 30, 2011, 05:35 PM
Anybody got a recipe for achieving perfectly ground garlic powder ;D

LOL I am sure Spicey has!!!  ;D