Adriandavidb asks why his base is sometimes bitter.  But he doesnt say which recipe he uses - ingredients and procedure.  Yet there are, as near as damn it, two following pages (and additional threads) about the bitterness of onions or not! 

I really don't see how you can really sensibly comment without knowing which recipe adriandavidb uses?

As is quite often the case here, one comment on the post can quickly change the overall topic into something quite different.

As bitterness is invariably caused by incorrect cooking of the onion (or garlic), I suppose it's only natural that the topic would head off in that direction!

But you are of course right Rai, we need some answers and confirmations from Adriandavidb.

SnS  ;D

Quote from: smokenspices on March 05, 2008, 04:21 PM
As bitterness is invariably caused by incorrect cooking of the onion (or garlic), I suppose it's only natural that the topic would head off in that direction!

There could be all manner of things at play here, from pan material (aluminium), to onion type, to cooking times, to temperatures, to burning spices, burning onions, burning garlic, buring ginger or anything else you might care to mention. 

Unless we know what recipe adriandavidb is using, we just cant really say, with any certainty, can we? :

Quote
But you are of course right Rai, we need some answers and confirmations from Adriandavidb

Yes, I think Im right too 

Quote from: Rai on March 05, 2008, 04:30 PM
There could be all manner of things at play here, from pan material (aluminium), to onion type, to cooking times, to temperatures, to burning spices, burning onions, burning garlic, buring ginger or anything else you might care to mention. 

Unless we know what recipe adriandavidb is using, we just cant really say, with any certainty, can we? :

Not quite true Rai. We have mentioned here the "not so obvious" problems that can occur.

It is highly unlikely that an aluminium pan would produce bitterness in his gravy (or anyone else's for that matter), as he has already produced successful batches before .. so you can forget that!

BTW many, if not most BIR's use aluminium pans.

If it's the spices, ginger, garlic or onions being burnt, then Adriandavidb would have noticed that, surely. This is an obvious mistake and I really don't think it's even worth mentioning here as we assume members do have some basic cooking skills.

So that only leaves the likely cause which is onion type, cooking time and temperature .. which is exactly what we have been discussing on the previous 2 pages .......

....... unless of course you have your own theory, which of course we can easily place in the "anything else you might care to mention" category.

SnS 

You're chopping your onion coarsely right? If you've started chopping more finely that could explain it...

Another cause could be that you're eating/drinking something sweet before tasting your base, which you didn't before. Sweet / sour / bitter are relative. If you take a swig of Coke then drink some tap water you'll see what I'm talking about.

hi guys /gls
to sort out the bitterness in relation to the onions add more salt and this brings out the sweetness in them. adding sugar will also bring the saltiness and combat any bitterness. that is how the chef knows what to add at the end of cooking the base sauce. when cooking your onions add salt and cook for about 45-60mins with the lid on, on a gently boil with the oil the smell can be overpowering stir from time to time and do not add too much water as the onions release the own liquid you will smell the change from the raw smell to lovely sweet moreish smell. then add the rest of the vegggies and more hot water just to cover them, and in a separate pan brown some ginger and garlic before adding them to the larger cookng pot. boil for 30 mins or until you can cut through a carrot easily then add the spices and cook for approx 20 mins.blend until smooth then return to the heat add more water to give a runny consistency and boil (rolling boil) for 10 mnis remove any yellow scum from the top regularly and after a short time you will see the oil start to creep across from the edges of the pan simmer this for 60mins?ish and then allow to settle for a couple of hours before using to allow the spices to settle.


hope this helps
regards
gary

In my experience, unless the bitterness (from onions or garlic) is cooked out, no amount of sugar or salt will counteract that bitter after-taste.

SnS  ;D

Quote from: smokenspices on March 05, 2008, 05:21 PM
Not quite true Rai. We have mentioned here the "not so obvious" problems that can occur.

So that only leaves the likely cause which is onion type, cooking time and temperature .. which is exactly what we have been discussing on the previous 2 pages .......

....... unless of course you have your own theory, which of course we can easily place in the "anything else you might care to mention" category.

They've all been mentioned before so they seem pretty obvious to me 

But, face it, we are full of supposition without actually knowing how hes making his base arent we?  Knowing that will surely help us better pinpoint the cause?

Acidic ingredients, cooked in an aluminium pan, can cause bitterness according to many peoples reports here.  He may change his pan, for all we know, however unlikely it may seem.  We dont know because we havent asked and he hasnt elaborated yet

We dont know if he uses tomatoes, and if he does, how much and of what type.  Tomatoes can definitely cause bitterness.  They are also acidic and can react with aluminium pans.

We dont know if he finely chops (or purees) the onions, garlic and ginger.  If he does it can cause bitterness.

We dont know which spices he uses or how much.  Too much of some spices can cause bitterness, however unlikely it may seem that he changes this from batch to batch. 

We dont know if he fries any spices, in which case he may burn them.  Shock horror, it happens to us all

We dont know if he fries the onions.  If he does it can cause bitterness.

We dont know if he fries his garlic and ginger (I cant tell from what he wrote?).  If he does he can burn them and it can cause bitterness.  It happens to us all.

We can arguably presume that adriandavidbs ingredients and procedure are 100% consistent each time he makes a batch.  Maybe it is, but I'd be very, very, careful with that assumption.  Many people are extremely inconsistent with their approach.  It anyway sounds like hes refering to different recipes and therefore different ingredients and procedures?

Face it, its all speculation because we dont know and we cant pretend that we do know until he elaborates on his ingredients and procedure

Only adriandavidb can help us to help himself here by being more specific

Quote from: smokenspices
BTW many, if not most BIR's use aluminium pans

Is this also true for their big stock pots?  Or is it also speculation?

gary,

appreciate your post. your base is my std as i consistently get my best result using it. i follow exactly and never get any bitterness. your quote

Quoteand in a separate pan brown some ginger and garlic before adding them to the larger cooking pot

is of particular interest. do you think yourself that it's worth the extra effort? i ask as i have no idea except that results are spot on without doing so but i don't know if they could be even better.

best wishes, jerry

Sorry folks, I've not been arround for a week or so to answer your questions, this topic seems to have 'kicked-off' in my absence!!

Firstly, as I stated in my first post, I've had bitter results having bolied the ginger & garlic, BUT also having fried them first.  this would indicate to me that the bitterness is nothing to do with burning the garlic and ginger, since this could only occur during frying!  I also feel that I'm experienced enough to know if I've burnt something, and I don't think I have.

I DO use an aluminium pot, and was interested to hear about tomato reacting with the metal, something that should have occurred to be before (having trained as a chemist... durhhh!).

I was interested also to read about adding bicarb.  I know this is something chip shops do when making 'mushy peas', presumably for the same reason, to help them break down.

I do chop my onions coursely (with a VERY sharp knife) most of the time, however I did once chop them in a food-processor, prior to cooking and blending.  This DID produce a bitter result!  However I have also had bitterness from coursely chopping!

I use a modified KD base, containing, in addition to her usual ingredients: a small carrot, a pepper, a stick of celery and home made roast chicken stock (prepared using a bouquet garni of peppercorns, bay, star anise and cloves, a la Ali Haydor).  Also , as well as 'tarkering' the tinned tomarto, I have done the same thing with the ginger and garlic (this is where I fryed the garlic/ginger, that I mentioned above).

I'm being to suspect two possible causes: firstly the aluminium pot.  I now fully intend to get a steel one, the last thing I need is early dementia caused by aluminium plaques in the brain!  Aluminium cooking pots have been cited as a cause of medical problems in the past, particularly if they have been used to prepare food that reacts with the metal!  I suspect though, that the main cause is the fact that I have either not cooked the onions long enough, although I'm not sure I'm guilty of this, as one hour should be plenty.  OR (more likely), I've cooked them on too low a simmer, with the lid on, which has not allowed the volatile bitter chemicals to be driven off adaquately.  Perhaps a good roling boil with the lid off next time!

Comments please!