Quote from: livo on August 14, 2022, 01:45 AM
Santa, you are more than likely, or let's say definitely, correct in stating that a busy Balti House like Shababs or Rishton would be cooking their dishes using a base gravy. The fact that Chef Zaf Hussain can be seen in the Andy Munroe / Misty Ricardo video preparing a 50kg onion gravy would pretty well assure this to be the case. However, both Chef Zaf Hussain and Chef Hussain Rashid have provided cook from scratch recipes for Balti Chicken which are almost identical.  The idea of a base gravy is to provide a head start towards achieving the same "single serve" presentation in a fast paced, high output setting.  So the base gravy in this instance should essentially contain almost everything that can go into the Balti in preparation for fast cooking. Note: The single serve cook is pretty quick anyway.

The confusion for me lies in the fact that Misty Ricardo's take on Chef Zaf's base gravy is more spiced when compared to his stand alone version.  I like the single serve dish as it is, so I could very easily adjust the base gravy to suite and mass produce the same dish.  I also like the spiced Misty Ricardo Balti Base Gravy, but it is not the same.  So we have 2 different supposedly "Real Baltis", purportedly from the same chef, that are different??  The Andy Munroe video does not give the recipe for the Shababs Base Gravy but Richard (Misty) was there so we'd have to hope that his recipe is a replica that he's gone on to provide, but this raises the question.  Which one is the REAL BIRMINGHAM BALTI?

Then we have Mick's 100% Clone Balti which is completely different again.  I agree with you that we need more people to try it?  I found it a really good base gravy but I needed to add other flavourings to it.

Let's look at the "From Scratch Balti Chicken" and compare Shababs with Rishton ingredient by ingredient: 

Shababs : Rishton.

Oil  4 TBSP : 4 TBSP  (Shababs says vegetable, Rishton states Rapeseed)

Fresh ingredients.
Tomato  1 : 2 (size variation? we can see what Rishton use but not Shababs. They say a medium one.)
Onion 1 : 1 (Shababs says a small one, Rishton says a large one. Subjective)
Green Chilli 2 : 2  (The same for both.)
Garlic and Ginger Shababs use 1 TBSP of puree. Rishton uses fresh 2 - 4 cloves of garlic and 2" piece of ginger.
Chicken Breast 1 breast fillet : 400g (Size of an single chicken breast can vary from 300g up to 500 g over here.)

Spices
Paprika (Shababs) / Kashmiri Chilli Powder (Rishton).  Each recipe uses 1 tsp of one or the other.  It is my experience that Indian Paprika is the same as KRC powder.  I would call this the same or use it as a way to control chilli heat.
Kasuri Methi 1 tsp : 1 pinch (I can easily pinch 1 tsp methi. Call it the same.)
Turmeric 1 tsp: 1/4 TBSP (Over here our TBSP is 20ml and our tsp is 5ml, so the same for me.)
Salt Pinch : To Taste  (Call it the same as you can vary to your own liking.)
Garam Masala Pinch : 1/4 TBSP  (Why would you give measurements in quarter Tablespoon?)
Cumin powder 1 tsp : nil (This spice is omitted from the Rishton recipe.)

Herbs
Coriander 1 TSBP : 1 Sprig

So there they are.  With the exception of Cumin they have all the same ingredients.  Quantities of tomato, onion and chicken may or may not be very close and there are subjective sizes given and the difference between 1 chicken breast and 400 g is unknown.  For all intents and purposes these recipes are the same.  The cooking method is the same so these 2 recipes for a "Real Balti Chicken" from 2 Birmingham Balti Houses must surely give us an understanding of what to expect.

Now, if you look at Misty Ricardo's take on the Shababs Balti Chicken to the final cook, you'll see a lot of similarity.  The notable difference is that the base gravy has green and black cardamoms, cassia bark, cloves and tej patta. These add extra spice flavour that does not appear in the cook alone dishes.  Easily remedied if needed.

Surely these are Birmingham Baltis.  If they're not then there is nowhere to go with this discussion.

Great analysis Livo.  A couple of things.  Rishton is Blackburn way.  Nearer to Manchester and Leeds, than Birmingham.  Preston too (Julian, Curry-to-go).  This doesn't negate your argument.  As I have said elsewhere, the BB style is not limited to Birmingham.  I wonder though if the similarities you identify between the two from scratch chefs are simply one cherry-picking the other's ideas, on swerving how it is really done.

Whilts on C2GO.  I recall one of Julian's curry courses included a video of Adey demonstrating Akhni stock in BIR cooking.  It was somewhat toe-curling to watch, but interesting in that it highlights the method being used up and down the country.

Rob

That's all interesting Rob and thanks for clearing up the locations for me. I have very little knowledge of the geography over there. 

I remember watching the Rishton video quite a while back but had never tried it until recently. I can't say I recall the discussion here about it.

When I made Misty Ricardo's Balti gravy I followed the recipe (1/2 qty) including 500 ml of water. Once it was sieved it is actually quite a thick sauce so don't be too stingy on water, but as you say you can always add extra later.

I cooked a Balti Prawns last night and I have to say that I'm really enjoying the balti experience (authentic or not).  I've been using "Indian paprika" which I've now found to be the source of the Chilli heat / spiciness that my family detected. I like it but I'm not sure if I should be using this or non spicy sweet paprika.

Here's the thread from a few years back about the Rishton Balti. https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=14313.msg125516#msg125516

In the video, at about 5.20, while discussing how you should want them from the chefs and the Balti House, he says "as we do cook 'em at home".   So it's not a restaurant Balti, which we knew anyway.

Yet again, I'm not sure. I've been reading over Rishton thread and the huge thread from 2013 (Three Baltis which has been read nearly 220,000 times), and I've again come across things I've seen before, yet missed the significance of.  CT posted a link to the 2010 video A square meal in the balti triangle. I remember watching it years ago.  Once again we see yet another restaurant chef, Punjab Paradise, cooking a Balti Chicken, from the same basic fresh ingredients in 7 minutes.  No balti base gravy is used.

I can also see now how much time and effort has gone into Rob and Mick researching this dish.

Agreed Livo. And now we need a few more folks to step up to the pan and give Mick's recipe a bash.  This weekend I will be using it as a base to try my beloved vindaloo and will report back with pics.

Robbo

I've just spent nearly 2 hours reading over (almost) the complete Three Baltis thread, and watching a few linked videos.  Several things come up. 

Members changing usernames is unhelpful when reading retrospectively. It is only by recognising addressed reply comments to Bengali Bob and Mushroom Mike that we know that Lahore Bob and Invisible Mike are those members.

Post rot is evident.  There are several posts that just end mid sentence, and notably, for some reason, especially Chewy Tikka's posts. 

I'm still baffled by JerryM's methods of spreadsheet presentation involving codes that only he can understand, ^{(* note)} and his shorthand posting style.  At one point his recipe was apparently "The Answer" but the recipe never actually appears in a pure form.

Over the period that this Three Baltis thread was active, I was only just starting here on this forum.  I can see that I did read it previously (and I remember bits of it).  I made only 1 comment late in the thread when Madhur Jaffrey's declared the Balti Craze over and her comments about Balti tasting like mud were discussed.  I must have been sampling home brew at the time.   

Where did the Rose Petals and Kewra Water pursuits end up?  They don't figure in any of the now 4 fresh ingredient Balti Chicken dishes.

*Note: I remember when I first joined the forum, JerryM sent me his spreadsheets.  I was totally confused by his formats.   They may make more sense to me now.

Must read the 3B thread myself and Jerry's spreadsheet if I can find it.  Those were the days hunting the elusive Adil's formula. I made a nice stock with chicken feet:)

As I remember Jerry and I were trialling kewra with tandoori masala powder and felt it was close to Adil's weird and wonderful perfume.  I am not so sure now.  It'll be something simple, ajwain is very likely to be involved, maybe rose petal too.

The kewra idea tracks back to the Kushi, where the chef there suggested adding it to his base gravy (Authentic Balti Curry) in response to complaints that the book recipe failed to deliver.

It does make my smile that Mick managed to sort it all out, brilliantly. 

Rob (AKA Bengali Bob)   



     

dont forget the powdered unicorn horn Rob  lol

Quote from: mickdabass on August 18, 2022, 02:28 PM
dont forget the powdered unicorn horn Rob  lol

Do you get that at Raja Bros?  I'll probably need to mail order. 

I once bought a bottle of Kewra water, but I can't remember why.  It may have been in some recipe for one of those ridiculous Kormas that has about 50 spices. I would seriously doubt any use of this or Rose Petals in anything really.

Have you still been experimenting Mick, or are you satisfied that you've cracked the Al Frash Balti?  One of the interesting points to come out of the Three Baltis thread for me is the apparent lack of consistency in these Balti Houses.  Towards the end of the thread there are some poor feelings expressed about the offerings of Al Frash.  (It may have even been you who wrote it. Can't remember.  Edit see below.)  This appears to be a common theme when you read online reviews of all of the "Balti House" experiences.

Quote from: mickdabass on January 14, 2015, 06:16 PM
I have eaten Baltis from Al  Frash quite a few times. One of my friends always picks up a takeaway from there whenever he eats there. One thing I will say is how inconsistent they are.

Quote from: mickdabass on October 31, 2014, 10:27 AM
Well I have just eaten my 4th Balti from Al Frash in the last couple of weeks, and firstly I must say how unbelievably inconsistent they have been! The first two were bog standard chicken Baltis. Both the flavour and texture of the two dishes were like chalk and cheese. The first one was absolutely delicious - as I expected, and consistent with what I have tasted before. The second one which I left in the  fridge for a couple of days was one of the worst curries I have ever eaten!! The only redeeming factor/taste was a definite chicken stock taste to it. In fact that was the only taste. That curry was cooked on a saturday night so I cant see that it was cooked by a stand in chef. It was pale and watery. Very disappointing.

So going to Al Frash could score you an absolutely delicious Balti or one of the worst curries you've ever eaten.  By all accounts (from what I've read in online reviews), going to Shababs is much the same.  Very hit or miss. Many complaints about food quality, poor serving size, woeful customer service and added surcharges. Other people love it.

Yes, Sounds about right to me.  They can botch them spectacularly.  It all adds to the intrigue.  The offering I had from Shababs recently was a gold medal botch though. Dog rough.  So bad it was actually impressive.

I made Misty Ricardo's Shababs Balti Chicken recipe last night.  First impressions.  Very good indeed.  Authentic Birmingham balti.  Look forward to comparing it with Mick's masterclass standard.

Last week I went to the Harper's Hill factory to pick up one of their balti bowls, for presentation.  Thinking now I should have bought two.

harpershill.co.uk/product/balti-bowl/

I'll be making a trip to Ladypool Road soon for another Shababs Balti.  A double portion of their lovely seekh kebabs too.  Wish me luck.

Rob

Unbelievable!!!  I cannot understand how the supposed pillars of the Birmingham Balti "Experience" can survive, given they are such a hit or miss affair.  I feel very sorry for you poor people over there.

There is a multi-award winning Indian restaurant about 20 km away from my home.  It used to be 4 km away until I moved house.  The establishment has been is business for over 30 years and I know I could go there tonight and be guaranteed a brilliant curry meal.  I could take many guests and there spice tolerance would be catered to.  Nobody would leave thinking they had been served anything other than good food.  There is an average (small operation) restaurant 2 km down the road.  I know I can always go there and get excellent food, any time they are open.  For goodness sake, we can buy good curry at the local supermall food hall.  None of it has made any claim to being a rare memory of 1970's Birmingham, but it is all good curry nevertheless.  How sad!! 

Mind you, I suppose there is a reason why 400 supposed Balti Houses now number only 4.