Quote from: livo on July 17, 2022, 01:30 AM
Another thought, and please keep in mind that this is in no way intended as a criticism of Mick's efforts, but food for discussion.  I really like the Base Gravy we have here and I've used it to make a few fine dishes.  I will persevere with it, as I'm about to do later today.  However, if this thread is the real 100% Birmingham Balti clone, where does that put the previous "real Balti/s"? 

I've just had a look through my copies of The Balti Secrets of the Birmingham Balti Company (Janet & Peter Lardner, 1997), 100 Best Balti Curries: Authentic Dishes from the Baltihouses (sp) (Mike Davidson, Diane Lowe, 1994) and Real Balti Cookbook. Over 100 Quick and Authentic Recipes (Mridula Baljekar, 1996).

The first point of discussion for me would be Cassia Bark.  In the essence of this thread is the emphasis of Cassia being paramount to the success and flavour of the recipe.  Cassia Bark (or cinnamon) barely get a mention in these mid-1990's publications in relation to the balti gravy / balti sauce.  If anything there are small amount in the Balti Masala powder that finds it's way into the gravy of Lardner & Lardner.  The interesting thing in the above-mentioned 3 publications is the striking similarity of ingredients for the base gravy in each.  The first 6 key ingredients are obviously also in Mick's gravy.  However, I'm looking for differences, while noting these similarities.

These are respectively:
Onion, ginger, garlic, salt, tomatoes, oil, methi, cardamom, Balti Masala. *Note: 2 TBSP of Balti Masala, of which Cassia is a minor ingredient.
Onion, ginger, garlic, salt, tomatoes, oil, coriander, individual spice powders (not including cassia). *Note; not even in their Rolls Royce Version sauce.
Onion, ginger, garlic, salt, tomatoes, oil, methi, individual spice powders (not including cassia).

Another difference is that none of these contain capsicum or carrot.  By observation you would expect that the gravy produced from Mick's recipe is a far more developed and richer sauce, but is it enough to produce a curry in it's own right?  The above 3 publications all use their respective gravy / sauce as a base for further dish development.

Mick's starting point for his recipe is Authentic Balti Curry: Restaurant Recipes Revealed. By Mohammed Ali Haydor and Andy Holmes.  The restaurant in the title is the Kushi on Mosely Road, Birmingham.  This is what peaked my interest.  I have been looking through the book recently.  What Mick has done is just extraordinary.  I can see it now.  Quite brilliant.  There are curved balls a plenty in Ali's recipes.  They caught me out.  But consider this.  He has recreated the Al Frash balti, Ladypool Road.  This has huge significance.  Even the recent Shababs Youtubes.  Ladypool Road.  Look at the gravy.  Listen to what the chef reckons goes into it.  A pattern is forming.  It's mind-blowing!

I have a pile of other balti books.  Reckon most will be going to a charity shop.  In the words of Jim Royle.
"Rolls Royce my ar$e".  Mick's recipe is the real deal.  Look no further. 

Rob   

Under normal circumstances, i.e. when making standard BIR fare, I would agree with livo and Phil about spice content. But this isn't that normal is it? The difference is that the base (reduced down) is the curry sauce. There's no added spice in the curry making stage. So I do think the spice quantity is important here. There could potentially be a difference of at least two and maybe three times the spice quantity depending on how you interpret the "teaspoon" measure. Hence why I would prefer accurate measures in the interest of accurately reproducing Mick's efforts.

And hopefully livo, as Phil has, you'd agree that the base sauce quantity used per curry is fundamentally important given that it is the curry.

Speaking from no experience I think the baltis of each balti house are not the same. The inordinate amount of cassia in this recipe apparently makes a clone of the Al Frash baltis. Maybe it wouldn't be needed for clones of other balti establishments?

Dont worry about upsetting me Livo - Im pretty thick skinned. You have to be on this forum at times. If you try any of these recipes then I doubt they will even come close to the real deal. It was only by chance that I cracked it imo.
One thing I dont think I have mentioned before was that about 7 years ago when I used to pre pack potatoes, I met a guy from Burton on Trent who used to be a chef in one of the lesser known balti restaurants (but was regularly listed in the Andy Munroe balti guide top 10). This guy did admit that he wasnt the head chef either but had worked there for many years. Due to family circumstances he had to leave the restaurant and help out with the running of the family grocery business. He did carry on cooking from home and used to do outside catering events on the side. Anyhow, I served him with spuds for about 6 months and all through that time he used to drop in various curries, samosas etc when he came to our place to pick up his spuds. He promised me he would show me exactly how to make a balti, but for various reasons after a while I stopped serving him.  On one of his visits though, he gave me a good sized portion of his balti gravy. It was literally the consistency of mashed potato - Ive got some photos somewhere... Anyhow, he never really believed that I knew how to cook a curry (some say I still dont lol) but he said to me that the gravy does not require any additional spices to make a balti. That made me realise that Baltis can only be made from balti gravy and not a generic gravy. He also told me he used only whole spices as well, I could not find a trace of a whole spice in it anywhere. basically, I took his gravy, diluted it down big time (maybe 10:1) and knocked up a few baltis- absolutely out of this world etc. I showed him a few photos of me cooking the baltis and he was shocked how much I appeared to know. Anyway long story short, he disappeared a few weeks later owing me £300 end of story. He'd strung me along to get some credit and then done a Ussain (Bolt).
So thats what I learned from the horses mouth as it were.

Some time ago I was trying to crack the Balti gravy making all these weird and wonderful Balti GMs and subsequent baltis and failing miserably so I decided to take a generic gravy - JB's I think and make a curry without any additional spices basically as a starting point. I was then going to make new curries using Balti GMs  to try and figure out  this balti conundrum. Anyway, the unspiced straight gravy tasted closer to a balti than any of the others.

Enough of my ramblings

As they say: The proof of the pudding...

Quote from: Secret Santa on July 17, 2022, 10:03 AMI do think the spice quantity is important here. There could potentially be a difference of at least two and maybe three times the spice quantity depending on how you interpret the "teaspoon" measure.

I cannot see how you reach that conclusion, Santa.  Would you not agree that your "heaped teaspoon" and my "heaped teaspoon" and MDB's "heaped teaspoon" are all probably within 15% of each other ?  If so, then surely "there could potentially be a difference of [15% or so of] the spice quantity" rather than "at least two and maybe three times".  It is not as if (e.g.,) 15% more chilli, 15% more coriander, 15% more cumin, 15% more turmeric, 15% more curry powder, 15% more kasoori methi and 15% more garam masala would lead to 105% more spice overall — it would not, it would lead to 15% more spice overall.
--
** Phil.

Quote from: livo on July 16, 2022, 11:40 PM
I doubt that the slight variations from one household's spoons and ladles to another's is going to cause significant detrement here. I'd imagine there are enough curries under our belts to know what we're doing and I can't see this being the issue.  I'll check freshness of spice before I worry about breaking out the 4 decimal place digital scales.

I'm enjoying this thread too Santa and I've now a good reason to cook another batch of gravy and more curry. Bob's lamb has me feeling envious. I'm off to the shops today.

What method are you using for your pre-cook Bob? It looks like bone in as well. Correct?

Yes, on the bone.  Asked the butcher to cut it into "curry pieces".

Pretty standard (handi) method, but with Mick's spice mix and Akhni stock.  Swapped out some of the green cardos for black. Tinned tomatoes (I used fresh for the base gravy). Don't go mad with the chilli power.

This was the actual Akhni stock that went in:



Rob

Quote from: Peripatetic Phil on July 17, 2022, 12:54 PMWould you not agree that your "heaped teaspoon" and my "heaped teaspoon" and MDB's "heaped teaspoon" are all probably within 15% of each other ?

Categorically no.

From this website: https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-tablespoon-and-teaspoon/

"The size of a teaspoon can actually range from 2.5 to 7.3 ml."

There is no standard teaspoon when talking about what you casually pick out of the drawer. And the vagueness of heaped is a further contributory error factor, not to mention rounded!

I do see the potential for at least a 100% error in spice quantity. If people would just stick to verifiable measurements, such as the universally accepted 1tsp = 5mL or, preferably, avoid teaspoons altogether, life would be a lot easier and we wouldn't need to clag up this thread with this discussion.

Anyway, right or wrong, I won't be trying it again without accurate quantities.

Quote from: Secret Santa on July 17, 2022, 01:18 PM

Quote from: Peripatetic Phil on July 17, 2022, 12:54 PMWould you not agree that your "heaped teaspoon" and my "heaped teaspoon" and MDB's "heaped teaspoon" are all probably within 15% of each other ?

Categorically no.

From this website: https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-tablespoon-and-teaspoon/

"The size of a teaspoon can actually range from 2.5 to 7.3 ml."

That page is complete and utter b@ll@cks.  Both quotes below are from that very page —

Quote

• "teaspoon has a capacity of 5ml"
• "A teaspoon is a small spoon that holds about 2ml"

The author is just writing down whatever comes into his/her head at that instant, without any thought or preparation and with no retrospective check for consistency.  In reality, a teaspoon holds about 5ml; even my coffee spoons hold more than 2ml.

** Phil.

Quote from: Secret Santa on July 17, 2022, 01:18 PM

Quote from: Peripatetic Phil on July 17, 2022, 12:54 PMWould you not agree that your "heaped teaspoon" and my "heaped teaspoon" and MDB's "heaped teaspoon" are all probably within 15% of each other ?

Categorically no.

From this website: https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-tablespoon-and-teaspoon/

"The size of a teaspoon can actually range from 2.5 to 7.3 ml."

There is no standard teaspoon when talking about what you casually pick out of the drawer. And the vagueness of heaped is a further contributory error factor, not to mention rounded!

I do see the potential for at least a 100% error in spice quantity. If people would just stick to verifiable measurements, such as the universally accepted 1tsp = 5mL or, preferably, avoid teaspoons altogether, life would be a lot easier and we wouldn't need to clag up this thread with this discussion.

Anyway, right or wrong, I won't be trying it again without accurate quantities.

I am happy with 1 tsp = 5 ml for this recipe, rounded.  I used a set of measuring spoons.  Not really my style, don't even remember buying them.  Sort of glad I did.  I think we are almost there.  Now then, my green 1 tsp spoon says 1 Teaspoon/4 ml on it.  Bare with me.  My orange 1/2 tsp spoon says 1/2 Teaspoon/2.5 ml.  But I can get 2 x orange into green.  Perfectly.  The meniscus is the rounding.  So, 1 tsp is 5 ml.  Now written in stone.

Rob   

Quote from: Bengali Bob on July 17, 2022, 01:52 PM
1 tsp is 5 ml.  Now written in stone.

Hallelujah, brothers and sisters — we has seen the light !

Quote from: Secret Santa on July 17, 2022, 10:03 AM

Speaking from no experience I think the baltis of each balti house are not the same. The inordinate amount of cassia in this recipe apparently makes a clone of the Al Frash baltis. Maybe it wouldn't be needed for clones of other balti establishments?

I'm not so sure.  I felt some were not so different, not fundamentally anyway.  The only one that really stood out for me was Adil's.  Some serious tweaking here, or yes, it could be completely different to the others. They used tandoori masala powder in all their balti dishes.  This is a fact.  Most likely added when making the curry itself.  I had a botched sit-down offering there once and could taste bitter uncooked TM.  Jerry got a sample of a whole spice GM they purportedly used.  A lot of cumin seeds and ajwain in it as I recall.  They also used rotisserie chicken strip, which added stock, I felt.  The real confuser was the distinctly floral notes though.  I have no idea.  Rose maybe.  Powdered unicorn horn and hen's teeth.

Rob