Quote from: pete on November 24, 2021, 03:47 PM
Did you hear Chef Dins comments on caramalisation?

Which video is that in Pete?

In my recent cook using his methods and recipes (or my variations of), I did not achieve any significant caramelisation of the gravy, often referred to, and the dishes were fine.

Edit:  I just read this in the comments of the Ceylon Video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgk70EIUAk&t=10s

Regarding the Caramelisation , have you watched my video making the curries? All I'm doing  letting the gravy thicken up , then it's done! So I'm not sure where this caramelisation comes from the first time I heard of it was in YouTube!
Isn't caramelisation something to do with sugar? Sometimes people say things that have no meaning , because they don't really know what they are doing , and then people believe, and I think that's what has happened here! If you watch my video, this is how it's done in a commercial indian kitchen ! I hope that's answered your question!

Quote from: livo on November 24, 2021, 09:51 PM
I just read this in the comments of the Ceylon Video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgk70EIUAk&t=10s

Regarding the Caramelisation , have you watched my video making the curries? All I'm doing  letting the gravy thicken up , then it's done! So I'm not sure where this caramelisation comes from the first time I heard of it was in YouTube!
Isn't caramelisation something to do with sugar? Sometimes people say things that have no meaning , because they don't really know what they are doing , and then people believe, and I think that's what has happened here! If you watch my video, this is how it's done in a commercial indian kitchen ! I hope that's answered your question!

I think that Chef Din's comment reflects the difference between a true BIR chef and the majority of wannabees — Chef Din clearly knows little about food science (e.g., the fact that onions contain sugars, which they release during the cooking process) but a great deal about BIR methodology, and can cook a perfectly good (probably first-class) curry despite this lack of scientific background.  Wannabees also know little or nothing about food science, but they have picked up by osmosis, as it were, the fact that caramelisation takes place (as does the [in]famous Maillard reaction) even when no sugar has been explicitly added to a dish, given the right circumstances, and trot out this fact whenever the subject arises so as to appear more knowledgeable than they really are.  See https://blog.memeinge.com/fun-fact-friday-caramelizing-onions/  (also below)  for more.  My EUR 0,02 (roughly AUD 0.031233192).

QuoteWhat is caramelisation?

Caramelisation is the process of browning that happens when sugar is heated. That's a very general statement, so let's get specific about caramelisation of onions.

Caramelisation of onions is the pyrolysis of sugar, which is a non-enzymatic browning reaction. What that means is that it's not a browning because the food enzymes react with oxygen (generally the air). Think about when you cut an apple and it turns brown shortly thereafter; that's enzymatic browning.

When you cut an onion it stays the same colour and only changes color when heat is applied, so it's a non-enzymatic reaction.

Pyrolysis is a chemical change that is caused by the presence of heat. This is the reaction that takes place to cause the caramelisation of onions. Pyrolysis involves a chemical and physical change; in the case of the onion

• the chemical structure of the onion is changed by breaking down the larger starch and sugar molecules in the onion
• the physical structure is changed from a yellow-white colour to a caramel-brown colour

Breakdown of the onions

From crispy & pungent, to soft & sweet ...

First, the onions are sliced then added to a hot pan. The heat causes the water in the onions to evaporate, which is why they start "sweating."

Onions are about 89% water, so they have lots of sweating to do — lots of water that will be released because they are being heated. The release of the water causes a breakdown in the structure of the onions, which is why they start softening. However, at this point, the onions are still heating up. They aren't hot enough yet to start the pyrolysis — which happens above 212°F.

Once the onions have reached the temperature where pyrolysis starts to happen, they start their browning. And this is where the magic happens. It's also where you need to make sure not to let the onions burn. Basically, just stir them every 5-10 minutes. I find that I could go longer intervals in the beginning and then as it got closer to the end, I needed to keep a more watchful eye on my beloved caramelised treasures.

During the caramelisation time, the larger sugar molecules in onions are broken down into smaller, simple sugar molecules. This is why caramelised onions have a sweeter taste than their raw counterparts. Your tastebuds don't register the large sugar molecules; they acknowledge the simple sugar molecules (not to be confused with "simple sugars" such as granulated sugar ["gran"]).

--
** Phil.

It's interesting to note how much emphasis in flavour terms Chef Din places on his gravy;almost to the point that you could just put some of his gravy in a pan with some chicken and you've already got yourself a chicken curry.The popular notion that the base gravy should be neutral, or even blandish is not something that Chef Din employs, totally the opposite in fact.

I've had a few samples of genuine BIR gravy over the years that have been packed with flavour, maybe this is the difference between an average curry house and an exeptional one.I'm certainly looking forward to giving his gravy and some of his recipes a go.His gravy certainly looks the part from what I've seen on his videos, especially the oilly film on the top-good to see he spoons the excess oil off to start his curries (the 'magic' spiced oil?).

As far as the solitary potato in the vindaloo, I don't think this has much to do with the 'vin' (vinegar) and 'aloo' (potato), rather it was a device invented so that a busy waiter could work out what dishes were what on his trolly.I guess a madras and a vindaloo look pretty similar so a potato sitting in the dish would help him sort things out.

Quote from: livo on November 25, 2021, 08:35 PM
You won't be disappointed in the gravy.  It isn't quite a curry by itself but it is more flavoured than others.

Well, yes and no.

Having today made the gravy and his vindaloo these are my thoughts.

The gravy, and we can indeed call this one an actual gravy as it has meat juices in it from the chicken, is very tasty. I shuddered at the amount of salt being added but it seems just about right in the finished article and of course he doesn't add salt to the curries. So just judging the gravy on its own merits it gets a definite thumbs up.

The vindaloo though had a definite gelatinous taste/feel to it from having the chicken cooked in the base with the skin on. And the chicken was very bland in the curry, almost tasteless. On its own the chicken tastes nice but I'd be putting it in a sandwich or, as Chef Din suggests, making fried chicken with it. I really think cooking the chicken in the base gravy like this is less about flavouring the gravy and more about cooking chicken in an easy way for use in the curries, but it doesn't work as curry meat.

For me the vindaloo was just ok and didn't seem to offer the quality the base sauce should have brought to it. The lemon added a hint of tartness but is not something I want in a vindaloo. And what are the tiny pieces of green pepper for? To make the sauce look more interesting?

If I were doing this again I'd skin the chicken before adding to the base gravy to cook to avoid the gelatinous effect. So, yes, it's an acceptable takeaway curry but nothing to write home about. And, ultimately, it's nothing we haven't seen before on the forum.

Quote from: jb on November 25, 2021, 04:35 PM
It's interesting to note how much emphasis in flavour terms Chef Din places on his gravy;almost to the point that you could just put some of his gravy in a pan with some chicken and you've already got yourself a chicken curry.The popular notion that the base gravy should be neutral, or even blandish is not something that Chef Din employs, totally the opposite in fact.

I think there are two broad schools of thought. One where the gravy is packed with flavour and the curry essentially is the base sauce with added meat, veg etc. And then there's the neutral base where the flavour is crafted at the curry making stage by using varied spicing etc. It seems to me the second option will provide a more varied taste experience whereas the former allows curries to be made quicker.