Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Cory Ander on December 17, 2009, 05:39 AM
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Hi all,
We all talk (or hear talk) of the "taste" and "smell" of a typical BIR curry, irrespective of what that may mean to each of us (and I am sure that it varies with each individual's experience and perspective).
I would like to ask what SPECIFIC tips members have for achieving that BIR curry "taste" and "smell"?
If, for example, you feel that "technique" is important, what SPECIFIC technique is important?
As EminJ stated in another post, it would be interesting and helpful to capture the DO's and the DONT's of creating that BIR curry "taste" and "smell"
Any offers?
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-If using garlic, fry 'till slightly coloured (pale yellow).
-Fry spices in hot oil for at least 30 seconds with little, if any, liquid present - I believe the excess of oil is required to draw the flavour out of the spices.
-Fry in dry methi leaf at the begining with the spices.
-After spice-frying, add a couple of tbs of base and reduce down till nearly all of the water is gone, the subsequent additins of base do not need to be reduced as far, I believe the caramelized sugars released by the onions whilst doing this contribute to the BIR 'smokey' toffee taste.
Having stated the above I still find that sometimes the results are amazing and sometimes only 'good' - Obviously the subtle variables make it seem like a bit of a 'dark art'.
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Hi all,
We all talk (or hear talk) of the "taste" and "smell" of a typical BIR curry, irrespective of what that may mean to each of us (and I am sure that it varies with each individual's experience and perspective).
I would like to ask what SPECIFIC tips members have for achieving that BIR curry "taste" and "smell"?
If, for example, you feel that "technique" is important, what SPECIFIC technique is important?
As EminJ stated in another post, it would be interesting and helpful to capture the DO's and the DONT's of creating that BIR curry "taste" and "smell"
Any offers?
Nice follow up post CA , be nice to have a sticky with ' definitives ' ;)
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be nice to have a sticky with ' definitives ' ;)
I agree Eminj, I think you're right when you say we are short on defining the POSITIVES (i.e. "how CAN we?") rather than the negatives (i.e. "why CAN'T we?")!
In fact, we should probably concentrate on the "DOs" and not the "DON'Ts"
Thanks for the start ADB...some good tips there...... 8)
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I cook a little differently to most on here but for me:
Equal measures of Green seeded chillies and green pepper finely chopped soon after the garlic.
In fact, we should probably concentrate on the "DOs" and not the "DON'Ts"
Thanks for the start ADB...some good tips there...... 8)
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Equal measures of Green seeded chillies and green pepper finely chopped soon after the garlic.
And, SPECIFICALLY, how much would you say, per single person portion, Mikka?
What about milder curries, where chillies, and maybe green peppers, would not be appropriate?
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Having stated the above I still find that sometimes the results are amazing and sometimes only 'good' - Obviously the subtle variables make it seem like a bit of a 'dark art'.
Why do you think that might be ADB?
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-If using garlic, fry 'till slightly coloured (pale yellow).
-Fry spices in hot oil for at least 30 seconds with little, if any, liquid present - I believe the excess of oil is required to draw the flavour out of the spices.
-Fry in dry methi leaf at the begining with the spices.
-After spice-frying, add a couple of tbs of base and reduce down till nearly all of the water is gone, the subsequent additins of base do not need to be reduced as far, I believe the caramelized sugars released by the onions whilst doing this contribute to the BIR 'smokey' toffee taste.
This is EXACTLY what I do, and I'm happy with this element of my curry cooking. Also, I do these steps on HIGH heat, and use LOTS of oil to ensure nothing burns. When that base hits the frying spices in the pan... whoa! There's the smell guaranteed.
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Having stated the above I still find that sometimes the results are amazing and sometimes only 'good' - Obviously the subtle variables make it seem like a bit of a 'dark art'.
Why do you think that might be ADB?
Excellent answer there CA we need to get down to the Nitty Gritty :D
Perhaps we could start by listing what type of frying pan you use then what base recipe followed by which Curry recipe then which order you cook your Spices and at what temperature ? ........... Perhaps it might show up some interesting similarities.
For myself it's....
1. Aluminium frying pan sourced at Asian Supermarket
2. sNs base minus the Potatoes but some Coconut block added ( experimenting )
3. sNs Madras recipe plus a pinch of dried Fenugreek
4. Start on low - med heat ( gas hob )
5. Add 1/2 tbs of Butter Ghee to pan plus veg oil to just cover base of pan
6. Start with the pinch of Fenugreek leaves ( as per my bir kitchen visit )
7. Add 1tsp minced Garlic ( from jar ) add 1/2 tsp of minced Ginger ( from jar )
fry on medium heat prob 30 - 45 seconds until it starts to change colour , add 1 tbs Tomato Puree from tube ( bought at Tesco's ) stir in , Tomato Puree does not mix in well with the oil ,
after about 30-45 seconds add 1/2 tsp of each of ground Coriander / Cumin /Turmeric / plus 1 -2 tsp of Chili powder , still with heat on medium stir in Spices in quick motion or they will burn !
after approx 30 seconds we have the ' Toffee ' smell , then add first ladle of preheated base and this will sizzle violently , raise heat slightly to keep mixture bubbling , add pre cooked Chicken previously marinated in Garlic / Ginger / Tom Puree / Turmeric / Veg Oil , add 2 more ladles of base gradually increasing heat to keep the mix bubbling , add a good pinch of chopped Coriander stalks , add a good pinch of Garam Masala a squirt of Lemon dressing and about 1 tsp of Salt stir in and taste , add more Salt if necessary ,fry mixture for a couple of Min's more adjust thickness of Curry with pre boiled water if needed , serve and garnish with Coriander leaf.
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Hi CA.
Usually I drop about 1 TBS of each (mixed) per pan that serves two. I do use both (One or the other) but to a lesser degree and depending the dish type too? (This is of course my personal preference).
** I think this thread is a fab Idea and agree with comments would should list method and perhaps utensils and heat of course.
And, SPECIFICALLY, how much would you say, per single person portion, Mikka?
What about milder curries, where chillies, and maybe green peppers, would not be appropriate?
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Hey guys. To name a few in no order:
- Minimal spicing - this is the most important thing I've learned (thanks CK). Less is more!
- Very few spices, namely turmeric, coriander, cumin, paprika, methi, chili and perhaps a little green cardamom in main dishes (have I neglected to mention any?). Most of us will have far more in our cupboard than most BIRs have in their kitchen. (from everything I have heard from first hand encounters on the site, and my own experiences at watching chefs cook curry from a distance / results obtained personally)
- Consistency procedure - start off with the first two small ladles of base being evaporated right off, then obtain the desired consistency with subsequent ladles. I don't think it's anything to do with caramelisation but more about imparting the full flavour of the spices into the dish
- Diluted tomato paste - you can't get it right otherwise, the tomato paste clumps up and makes it too easy to burn the spices. Diluted tomato paste goes in, get stirred and evaporated a little, off the heat, spices added, back on the heat and 30 seconds of high heat and stirring.
- Enough oil - you need IMHO a good 4 tbsp otherwise it's too dry to fry the spices properly
- Correct volume of salt - this depends on the base. Keep tasting regularly and you'll get it right
Cheers
BB
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Hey guys. To name a few in no order:
- Minimal spicing - this is the most important thing I've learned (thanks CK). Less is more!
- Very few spices, namely turmeric, coriander, cumin, paprika, methi, chili and perhaps a little green cardamom in main dishes (have I neglected to mention any?). Most of us will have far more in our cupboard than most BIRs have in their kitchen. (from everything I have heard from first hand encounters on the site, and my own experiences at watching chefs cook curry from a distance / results obtained personally)
- Consistency procedure - start off with the first two small ladles of base being evaporated right off, then obtain the desired consistency with subsequent ladles. I don't think it's anything to do with caramelisation but more about imparting the full flavour of the spices into the dish
- Diluted tomato paste - you can't get it right otherwise, the tomato paste clumps up and makes it too easy to burn the spices. Diluted tomato paste goes in, get stirred and evaporated a little, off the heat, spices added, back on the heat and 30 seconds of high heat and stirring.
- Enough oil - you need IMHO a good 4 tbsp otherwise it's too dry to fry the spices properly
- Correct volume of salt - this depends on the base. Keep tasting regularly and you'll get it right
Cheers
BB
That's interesting BB , I have never seen base added before Spices ( I could be misreading :)) I have personally watched two BIR Chef's cook my Madras plus a good friend of the family who is Indian and a very keen cook all put Garlic / Ginger / Tom / Spices first ,and have said Spices must be fried in the hot oil , not added after , interesting post BB ;)
Which Base and Curry Recipe do you use BB to be able use minimal Spicing .
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great discussion
tonight i went for a curry at a local restaurant.
i had a vindaloo, and my observations were it had that chilli hit right from the point it touched my lips, now i havent so far been able to get that, when ive made a curry the chilli hit just seemed deeper in the taste, a moment of tomato,onion before i can realy taste the heat.
i would add though the pilau rice recipe http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?PHPSESSID=5b65a58d0ca5693c634700224a4742b2&topic=1383.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?PHPSESSID=5b65a58d0ca5693c634700224a4742b2&topic=1383.0) from cory ander was better than they did, and the cory anders one also looked better, i add tumeric to the pan of rice with that recipe, and the wife and me both agreed my one made from this recipe was far superior. I picked out a bit of cassia bark and i found a green cardomen in the wifes so its pretty similar.
also the riata given with our chicken tikka and chicken tandoori starters was not as good as the one http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1224.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1224.0) once again by cory ander on here. infact i have no intention of looking to alter or change it in any way, im happy with it now.
however there chicken tikka was superior http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=874.70 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=874.70) the one here just has a bit of an aftertaste, there's was juicy and with lashings of coriander and the side salad on the plate looked realy good, the tikka and tandorri came with a lovley red onion mixed with it. it was superb we both agreed.
So a kinda mixed bag for me, but im happy to say im realy progressing thanks to you guys on here. That vindalloo had a lovley sting to it, which i just cant get, could it be puerred green chilli?
the wife had a pathia, something ive never tried, niever had she said it was wonderfull and suprisingly hot, and insisted i have a go at making it for her.
So to get back on topic, my top tip is to go out have a meal and then compare your process, you might be suprised how close you realy are to making something as good or better than you can go buy, it also gives you a idea of what you still need to work on.
regards
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That's interesting BB , I have never seen base added before Spices
I don't think that's what Bobby was suggesting. At least I hope not!
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Another one that came to mind is:
Make sure your spices are fresh!
I was making a curry the other day and measured out some ground coriander. I smelled the spices and noticed there was very little aroma. I checked my cumin and found the same. I also noticed my curry powder had expired!
I dry roasted and ground up some newly bought seeds and the aroma difference was night and day. The fresh can of curry powder was remarkably better too. No surprise, that particular curry was the best I made in yonks!
Gone are the days when I buy big bags of spices, and big cans of curry powder.
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That's interesting BB , I have never seen base added before Spices ( I could be misreading :)) I have personally watched two BIR Chef's cook my Madras plus a good friend of the family who is Indian and a very keen cook all put Garlic / Ginger / Tom / Spices first ,and have said Spices must be fried in the hot oil , not added after , interesting post BB ;)
Which Base and Curry Recipe do you use BB to be able use minimal Spicing .
Hi Emin-J. You weren't misreading, just making assumptions, as I said nothing of the kind :P
It goes oil, then onion and capsicum if using, shortly followed by garlic and ginger until light golden, followed by diluted tomato paste, evaporate slightly, off the heat, then spices (including methi), back on high heat for 30 seconds, then base in the method I described.
I'm currently using CA's recipes with great results. However, I have mentioned that I think the synthesised spiced oil does little and that I enjoy my curry sauce a little thicker than CA does, again, no disrespect to CA, that's just regional variance and my preference - his recipes are amongst the best and most precisely documented, leaving little margin for error if followed correctly.
Cheers
BB
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we need to get down to the Nitty Gritty......perhaps we could start by listing what type of frying pan you use then what base recipe followed by which Curry recipe then which order you cook your Spices and at what temperature ? ...........
Whoooooooa EminJ! I agree that we need to get down to SPECIFICS, but I believe we need to focus on what members KNOW is essential to creating (or help create) that BIR "taste" and "smell".
For instance, if someone feels an aluminium pan is ESSENTIAL to getting the taste (or at least essential to contributing to it) then they should say so. Otherwise it's not particularly relevant, I feel, and may just side track us.
I think implicit in members posts is that they feel that they CAN achieve the BIR 'taste" and/or "smell" (and they really should say which it is, if not both), whatever that means to them. In which case, being specific about the curry base used, for instance, would probably be relevant (e.g. when Josh says "when that base hits the frying spices in the pan... whoa! There's the smell guaranteed", it would relevant to know which base he's specifically referring to...or if he thinks it's not relevant).
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When that base hits the frying spices in the pan... whoa! There's the smell guaranteed.
Ahem....following on from my previous post....and which base might that be please Josh? :P
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Minimal spicing - this is the most important thing I've learned...Very few spices...
What do you consider to be "minimal spicing" BB (quantity per main dish serving, say)? Are you saying you can't produce the BIR "taste" and/or "smell" if you use more (or a wider variety of) spices?
...namely turmeric, coriander, cumin, paprika, methi, chili and perhaps a little green cardamom in main dishes
Are you saying that ALL of these spices are essential to creating the taste and/or smell BB? And no others are?
Correct volume of salt - this depends on the base. Keep tasting regularly and you'll get it right
Roughly how much might this be per main dish serving? Do you think you cannot get the taste and/or the smell without it?
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Ahem....following on from my previous post....and which base might that be please Josh?
Right now I'm using yours. ;)
I have experienced the same "Whoa" of BIR aroma (and great taste in the finished curry) using both the Bruce Edwards and SnS bases.
-- Josh
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Great replies guys 8)
I reckon that, if we can get the specifics down on how to create that BIR "taste" and "smell", this will prove to be an interesting thread (great suggestion eminj)
I'll try and produce a summary, after the thread has run a while......
I'd love to hear some tips from some of our other long standing members too...such as SS....
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smell:
smoke from high heat cooking - say ~ 7kw
taste:
thin base
low spice base & dish
i'll give it some more thought. i probably would find it easier to list what don't make any difference but that's quite a big list.
real good post CA.
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Great job your doing here CA ;)
My point of going into detail ie type of frying pan , base etc is just my way of thinking,
if we find say 7 members believe they produce ' the taste ' and 3 members don't and we then find the 7 members use Aluminum pans and the other 3 don't the Aluminium pans could be a ' Top Tip ' ? I think the ' Top Tips ' are coming on nicely ;)
If we dissect all this info I think we should find some solid answers.
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I can't reproduce the taste or the smell, but then I seem to be looking for something that others aren't.
I think I can put my finger on what is ruining modern BIR curries though or, in other words, what is taking them away from my notion of the ideal taste and smell:
1. Not using a spiced oil, whether specially prepared, or recovered from the base and/or curries
2. Using commercial pastes, notably Pataks'
3. Possibly the use of too much spice. I've settled on minimal spicing of 1 to 2 tsp, not including methi or chilli. Just watch the online BIRs like maliks, they're really ladling those spices in.
4. And last, but for me not least, the lack of use of methi in the savoury curries. Although I think this is more prevalent here than it is in the BIRs (so I suppose that is a complaint about the curries on this site and not the BIR curries!)
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I think the synthesised spiced oil does little
If that's the case BB then it can only be that the version of spiced oil you are using is lacking in some respect.
Next time you make a curry be really liberal with the oil so that you can recover, say, six TBSP from your finished curry. Use that to start your next curry off and if you don't notice a marked improvement in your curry, there is something seriously wrong going on.
Actually, even better than that, is to use recovered oil from the base in the curry and then use the recovered oil from that to start your next curry.
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Secret Santa , Unlucky for me I had my first Indian Curry in the late 80's so it sounds like I may have missed the best Curry years ::) previous to this were my Chinese years :)
However your comments about Spiced oil etc on the two occasions I have watched a BIR Chef make my Madras , your right neither of them used Spiced oil BUT the Curries were fantastic tasting to me ;) and if I could replicate that taste on a regular basis I would be more than happy :D
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i probably would find it easier to list what don't make any difference but that's quite a big list.
I think it's probably all too easy for each of us to say why we CAN'T do something; I think it would be far more productive to focus on why we CAN do something.....keep thinking Jerry! 8)
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My point of going into detail ie type of frying pan , base etc is just my way of thinking,
if we find say 7 members believe they produce ' the taste ' and 3 members don't and we then find the 7 members use Aluminum pans and the other 3 don't the Aluminium pans could be a ' Top Tip ' ?
I see where you're coming from emin-j, I just fear that we will then have so much (conflicting) information that we will be unable to see the wood for the trees once more (still!)......
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I can't reproduce the taste or the smell, but then I seem to be looking for something that others aren't
I'm not sure that's true SS, there are quite a few of us that are after that taste and smell prevalent in BIR curries during the 80's. I know I am. Where I disagree is that I believe it can still be found and recreated (whereas you are adamant that it can't).
I think I can put my finger on what is ruining modern BIR curries though or, in other words, what is taking them away from my notion of the ideal taste and smell
Are you able to change these around to "Do's" (i.e. positives) rather than "Don'ts" (i.e. negatives) then SS? I think that would be more fruitful (probably for you as well as us)
So what do you think it is that's required to get the taste and smell of BIR curries of the 80's then SS?
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Secret Santa,
1, 2 & 3 of your list (gravy oil, no pataks and the like, low spice - i'm 1 tsp max) is defo my list too.
on taste i've added an extra thought:
taste:
thin base
low spice base & dish
"right ingredients and right proportions - per dish"
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thin base
Yes I'd agree with that too. I use high heat throughout the cooking and I believe that the five or six minutes of 'boiling' that gets the curry to its final consistency really improves the flavour, and for that you definitely need a thin base.
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Secret Santa,
been giving some thought to the 70s curry.
i know the picture of what it looks like. at the time i had no interest in how they were made. we just loved the food, social occasion and the staff who were always good to chat to.
the 2 BIR's i've consistently gone to over the interim have changed a little & yet a lot - the menu has vastly expanded.
these are pure guesses at what i think could be differences:
1) fresh coriander - i can't really remember it being so prominent as it is now
2) whole spice particularly cardamom - the oil was stronger than now
3) less tikka - more plain meat was eaten. the tikka imparts a taste to the dish from the carried over marinade
4) less floating oil - often today the top is swimming. although i'm sure the same amount of oil was used i am sure it was consumed more in the cooking (i never get much oil on the surface)
5) fresh ginger - i think this is a new era taste. i think it must have been powder in the past
some defo no no's for me:
1) chicken stock
2) ghee
it would be interesting to get a collective view. there may well yet be a chance of making the jag.
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on tips for creating taste - one last thought
i still look at this curry malarkey as a jigsaw. each bit in it's own right does not necessarily have a dramtic effect - it's the collective impact that matters.
probably stating the obvious but these also have their part to play once the basics are in place: curry oil, g/g paste, green chilli, fined chopped onion, bunjara, salt, mix powder, tom puree, fresh coriander.
the BIR is so successful for me in that they are able to bring these all together in balance that collectively with the basics deliver that moorish taste.
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What do you consider to be "minimal spicing" BB (quantity per main dish serving, say)? Are you saying you can't produce the BIR "taste" and/or "smell" if you use more (or a wider variety of) spices?
By minimal spicing I meant having a low volume of spice mix present in the curry, rather than the limiting the variety of spices used. I consider minimal spicing to firstly involve a sensible volume of spice mix in the base (I don't know precisely but most popular bases on this site use a similar volume). Thereafter I find using 1 tsp of spice mix in one portion of main is about right. Any more and I find the result is steering away from the BIR flavour. However your addition of a tsp of curry powder in the main works well, which is surprising to me. I know that I've tried using 2 tsps spice mix in a main and it's too much. Madras curry powder seems more subtle than most of the spice mixes I've tried.
As far as creating the BIR taste / smell while using more volume of spice... I don't think so - my attempts have got much closer since I've cut down. As far as variety of spices is concerned, I think you need the basics in place (mentioned below) but after that, a little pinch of this or that is acceptable I would imagine, as long as it's not a really alien or overpowering flavour. I don't think you need anything other than the basic curry spices to create a standard BIR curry e.g. Bhuna.
Are you saying that ALL of these spices are essential to creating the taste and/or smell BB? And no others are?
I would say that most of these spices are essential to most dishes and by using only these spices you would be able to have a convincing attempt at most BIR curries, especially the classics. However there will be dishes in which not all of these spices are necessary and no doubt dishes that aquire the addition of other spices.
Roughly how much might this be per main dish serving? Do you think you cannot get the taste and/or the smell without it?
Again, I'm not exactly sure on volumne but for example, I find that one dsrt spoon in your base and half a teaspoon in the main dish does the trick. I know that's quite a lot ;D Salt won't effect the smell obviously but yes, I think a fair whack of salt is paramount to reproducing the BIR taste.
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Secret Santa,
been giving some thought to the 70s curry.
It's more the early 80's curry for me but either way I agree with every one of your points!
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Thanks for clarifying those things BB.
As for me, for what it's worth, I believe the following are important to creating that BIR "taste" and "smell" (most of which are just reiterating other member's comments):
1. Essential:
a) Use lots of oil to fry the spices (whether they be whole, powdered or paste form)
It is evident that oil is the medium by which the flavours of the spices are carried and distributed. In my opinion, it is essential not to skimp on the oil. I suggest at least 75ml per individual portion. Any excess oil can be skimmed off, at the end of cooking, and used to make another curry. Smell and taste the oil. It should have elements of both the "taste" and the "smell" (and colour) of a typical BIR curry.
Of course, modern day "awareness" of the "harmful effects" of too much oil (as well as salt, artificial flavours, msg, etc) might lead some people to use less of it. That's probably OK for still producing decent tasting curries, but it won't be the same, in my opinion.
b) Use fresh (powdered) spices (i.e. those that have not been poorly stored or sitting around or ages)
Powdered spices lose their flavour quite quickly (i.e. within weeks, certainly months, even though properly stored). Make sure your spices are fresh in that they still have a powerful aroma. If they don't, bin them. The same goes for spice mixes and curry powders and curry pastes.
c) Use a decent curry base
Although debatable, the essence of a BIR curry, in my opinion, is in the curry base. Without a decent curry base you will always be struggling to create that BIR taste and smell. Having said that, a decent curry can, of course, be produced without using a curry base. It's effectively cooked, in situ, with the main curry. However, this is more an "authentic Indian" cooking style, rather than a BIR cooking style, and will no doubt lead to a different (that is not to say it's inferior) taste and smell. To my mind, this (i.e. the curry base) is where "a gap" (i.e. an "unknown") exists between home cooking (and curry bases available on this forum) and BIR cooking.
d) Use a decent sized pan, matched to your heat source, and don't overfill the pan
I believe it is important to match your pan (of whatever material or shape) to your heat source. It is important to impart enough heat to ensure that the ingredients fry rather than braise. Overloading your pan will result in the latter and the flavours of the spices (and other ingredients) will not fully develop. Provided this is done, I see no reason why multiple portions cannot be successfully produced (though BIRs generally produce single portions at a time)
e) Use plenty of salt and/or MSG
Again, use plenty of salt (and/or MSG) in both the base and the main dish. I'd suggest at least 0.5 tsp of salt in the main dish and maybe 0.25 tsp MSG. MSG may be a throw back to earlier BIR curries of course (before effects of these things on "health" became such an issue!)
The reason I personally place so much emphasis on the above factors is that, as SS pointed out, BIRs produce various rudimentary dishes (such as mushroom bhaji, aloo bhaji, etc) which are little more than the above combination, which, nevertheless, have the taste and the smell. What else can it be? Really?
2. Important:
a) Use plenty of spice
This seems to be a bit at odds with other members' opinions (i.e. "less is more"). However, spices are obviously important to creating the taste and smell of a curry. If you use plenty of oil, and recover the oil for future use (whether from the base or from the main curry), you will need to add extra spices to compensate for the flavour "lost" in that removed oil. To my mind, you can quite easily add several tsp of spices to an individual portion of curry (provided it doesn't become "gritty").
Ground coriander and cumin are the most important BIR spices, primarily for flavour, and tumeric (and paprika) primarily for colour and chilli primarily for colour and piquancy.
b) Use spiced oil
There is no doubt, in my mind, that using spiced oil (whether recovered from the curry base, or from the main dish, or specifically created, can significantly enhance the smell and taste of any curry.
c) Use plenty of garlic
There is no doubt, in my mind, that garlic is an essential element of the taste and smell of a typical BIR curry. My recollection (from those BIRs curries of yesteryear) is that garlic seeps from the pores of the skin for days afterwards! A word of caution though. I find that using lots of garlic with lots of lemon juice can result in a very sickly tasting curry. So I'd say rather skimp on the lemon juice.
Okay, I've droned on too long so I'll stop there!
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Again, I'm not exactly sure on volumne but for example, I find that one dsrt spoon in your base and half a teaspoon in the main dish does the trick. I know that's quite a lot ;D Salt won't effect the smell obviously but yes, I think a fair whack of salt is paramount to reproducing the BIR taste.
The strange thing I find with salt is this. If I add salt to a curry that I'm making so that, to me, it tastes right, I find that if I then taste that same curry when it is cold the next day it is far too salty.
I don't know why this is but it's not something I find with BIR bought curries. All very strange!
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So I'd say rather skimp- on the lemon juice.
Let there be light!
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Let there be light!
Ahhh, but it's contextural with regard to using lots of garlic SS :P
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By the way, SS,
I notice that the East Takeaway (like many others, nowadays, responding to "market pressures") pride themselves on having no MSG, low salt, low fat, low oil, no artificial flavours curries......
....hmmm, that's probably where the 80s taste and smell has gone to then! ::)
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just a point on pataks, i have been in the kitchen of a bir many times Before i came on this site. and they used a lot of pataks there. Now if i had the chance i would observe with a lot more knowledge this time what is going on and what they were using it for, they had stacks of big jars of the stuff.
Im still friendly with the owners and they do make a very presentable curry, alas i live a fair distance away now or im positive they would help out in our quest. Im heading sometime over the holidays to their to visit my father so may just pop in to say hello to them.
I wonder how many other bir use pataks, i know these guys are part of a group of 5 bir's so i guess they all use it. will find out what pataks it is the use, if i remember its a blue label.
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just a point on pataks, i have been in the kitchen of a bir many times Before i came on this site. and they used a lot of pataks there....I wonder how many other bir use pataks
For sure, many do, nowadays, Jimmy.....and this (together with the availability and use of other preprocessed ingredients) is probably one good reason why BIR curries taste different today than yesteryear (because, as I understand it, things like Pataks pastes only became commercially available, and widely used by BIRs, in the 90s)..... :P
Oddly enough, I don't really recall many members reporting that "they added 1 tbsp of Pataks Madras/Tandoori/Tikka Masala/Vindaloo, etc, paste to the curry"? Though the tubs are there for all to see! :-\
Ironically, BIRs are meanwhile going MSG free, low oil, low fat and artificial flavourings free.....go figure.....
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a squirt of Lemon dressing [/quote]
I have used many things to sour hot curries, lemon juice; lime juice; various vinigars, and more recently tinned tomarto juice or some of the 'blitzed' contents of tinned toms, added late in the cooking. The latter works best for me. However one of my local BIR's madras (not a fantastic BIR, but perfectly OK), had a flavour that I recognised but for ages I couldn't 'place' After weeks of wraking my brains I finaly realized it was sweet lemon dressing: that discusting overly sweet sh*t you get on pancakes at fairgrounds and craft fairs and the like. It tastes vile on these because it's designed both to sweeten AND add a lemon flavour, and for some reason the vendors of these pancakes find it necessary to use loads of sugar AND this sauce, rather than using sugar and lemon juice which would be just great thanks!
Anyway, the point of the above diatribe, apart from slating pancake vendors, was to suggest that this rather sickly stuff does work RATHER well in a madras, providing other forms of sweetner (tom puree for example), are reduced.
My local BIR uses it with good rresults; I was interested to see it's use suggested here, because I've been meaning to try it for ages!
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Excellent informative post CA , I would go along with almost all of your top tips , except ;)
Spicing
I started my Curry Quest using the SnS base and Madras recipes and immediately had excellent results :D However I don't bother looking at the recipe now as I have made so many Madras Curries with the recipe I just go onto autopilot ;D but recently ( past 5-6 Curries ) the wife and me have both agreed the Curry was tasting too rich and we have struggled to finish them , yesterday I decided to look into the reason why and for starters rechecked the recipe . I immediately realised I had been trebling up the amount of Spices whereas the recipe calls for 0.5 tsp of ground Cumin / Coriander I have been putting in more like 1.5 tsp of each thinking more is better ::) All this does is give the Curry a much stronger deep flavour being over rich for our taste , yesterday I stuck rigidly to the recipe and the Curry was peeeerfect.
Top Tip.
I feel you need to ' balance ' the amount of Spice in the main Curry with the amount of Spice is in your Base Gravy AND follow the recipe ::)
Spiced Oil.
Not necessary , our favourite T/A doesn't use it and they turn out the best Indian food I've tasted .
Clean Pan .
Top Tip.
I get better results using a clean frying pan for each portion rather than start a fresh Curry with the remnants of the previous one in the pan .
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pride themselves on having no MSG
I haven't played with MSG for years, other than when it's combined with things like All Purpose Seasoning. The thought suddenly strikes me that this may be the answer to my otherwise perfectly seasoned curries tasting too salty next day when cold.
It might be time for a little experimentation as I think more MSG and far less salt might overcome this problem - and perhaps take me one step closer to the curies of old!
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I finaly realized it was sweet lemon dressing...
Do you have a link to an example of this please?
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Top Tip.
I feel you need to ' balance ' the amount of Spice in the main Curry with the amount of Spice is in your Base Gravy AND follow the recipe ::)
I couldn't agree more AND it becomes all the more important if you use minimal spicing when making the curry, because the base has a proportionately greater effect.
If, like CA, you advocate the use liberal spicing at the curry making stage, you can get away with a wider variety of bases as there is a 'masking' effect going on.
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I would go along with almost all of your top tips , except ;)
I think members are almost bound to disagree, to some extent, with other members' opinions eminj. I think this is due to what their personal idea of "the taste" and "the smell" of a "BIR curry" is or, indeed, what even a "BIR curry" is! :P
No doubt we are all aiming for different things, depending upon our own personal tastes and BIR curry eating experiences.
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Having stated the above I still find that sometimes the results are amazing and sometimes only 'good' - Obviously the subtle variables make it seem like a bit of a 'dark art'.
Why do you think that might be ADB?
Excellent answer there CA we need to get down to the Nitty Gritty :D
Perhaps we could start by listing what type of frying pan you use then what base recipe followed by which Curry recipe then which order you cook your Spices and at what temperature ? ........... Perhaps it might show up some interesting similarities.
For myself it's....
1. Aluminium frying pan sourced at Asian Supermarket
2. sNs base minus the Potatoes but some Coconut block added ( experimenting )
3. sNs Madras recipe plus a pinch of dried Fenugreek
4. Start on low - med heat ( gas hob )
5. Add 1/2 tbs of Butter Ghee to pan plus veg oil to just cover base of pan
6. Start with the pinch of Fenugreek leaves ( as per my bir kitchen visit )
7. Add 1tsp minced Garlic ( from jar ) add 1/2 tsp of minced Ginger ( from jar )
fry on medium heat prob 30 - 45 seconds until it starts to change colour , add 1 tbs Tomato Puree from tube ( bought at Tesco's ) stir in , Tomato Puree does not mix in well with the oil ,
after about 30-45 seconds add 1/2 tsp of each of ground Coriander / Cumin /Turmeric / plus 1 -2 tsp of Chili powder , still with heat on medium stir in Spices in quick motion or they will burn !
after approx 30 seconds we have the ' Toffee ' smell , then add first ladle of preheated base and this will sizzle violently , raise heat slightly to keep mixture bubbling , add pre cooked Chicken previously marinated in Garlic / Ginger / Tom Puree / Turmeric / Veg Oil , add 2 more ladles of base gradually increasing heat to keep the mix bubbling , add a good pinch of chopped Coriander stalks , add a good pinch of Garam Masala a squirt of Lemon dressing and about 1 tsp of Salt stir in and taste , add more Salt if necessary ,fry mixture for a couple of Min's more adjust thickness of Curry with pre boiled water if needed , serve and garnish with Coriander leaf.
Hi SS, it was from emin-j's post on page one of this thread
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a further thought on the thinness factor. someone pointed out importantly a while a go it don't mean just adding water. if u look in real BIR base it contains a lot of onion even though it appears at 1st sight very watery.
u need to work back from how much evaporation occurs at frying stage. i aim for the initial volume of bulk veg to be in the region of 50 to 60% of the finished volume of base.
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it's a real eye opener - the differences we all see. the important thing is people can at least try out the ideas for themselves and make up their own minds.
the spice aspect is i think a gap for me.
i'm finding both low spice base (~2%, CA's aka for eg is 2.6%, based on spice volume and initial chopped onion volume) and low spice dish produce the best result (max 1 tsp as stated by others above). CA's vindaloo took me by surprise (higher spice 2.25tsp which is what i used to use before reducing down - same for me as Bobby Bhuna described above) - something for the new yr to experiment along the lines of. i'd also like to try out along the lines of tgad2007 spice at 1% in base.
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I totally agree Jerry. getting the base the right consistency for your own cooking style is key for me. evaporating the base influences the taste. if you overdo it, the curry can be too rich. if you underdo it, the curry has a poor flavor.
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Off-topic discussions on MSG moved to new thread here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4213.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4213.0)
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I totally agree Jerry. getting the base the right consistency for your own cooking style is key for me. evaporating the base influences the taste. if you overdo it, the curry can be too rich. if you underdo it, the curry has a poor flavor.
Absolutely spot-on in my humble experience!