Topic: What Makes a decent BIR madras "the classics"

[emin-j]

JerryM ,
How sure are you that T/A in the 60's - 70's used a Base Sauce 
Probably the demand then would have been nothing like today , I have read so many times about how much more flavoursome the Curries were then than they are now , unfortunately I cant comment on the flavour as my Indian days started in the 80's 

[moonster]

very good point eminj,

i dont think anyone could be certain for sure if they used a base or not.

but i reckon in that era at the very least they roasted and grounded all there own spices.

Alan ;D

[Razor]

For what it's worth, my thinking on this is, I'm sure that they would have used a base. 

Base gravy is not exclusive to BIR and can be found in traditional dishes.  The ingredients in most bases are very simple and very attainable, even in the 50's and 60's. 

As for the demand back then Emin-j, I get what your saying, widespread, the demand probably wouldn't have been as high as it is today but, there weren't as many BIR's about either, so the percentage demand per establishment probably would have been close to what we see today?

On another note still related, I'm working on a "Base Paste" at the moment.  Basically, it's all the ingredients that go into my base, without the water.  The concept is, is to create a paste that can be used at the "dish" stage, whereby you can add it, along with water (Hot) in 100ml increments.

I've still got to work out how best to do this, in order of ingredients, and how much further cooking will be required after I've pureed everything.  If this works out, I'll be able to freeze about 50 portions of this paste, using the same amount of space in the freezer as I would for 20 portions of base.

Wish me luck, lol

Ray

[mickdabass]

Talking to a waiter in my local ta last night and he said that between 1974 -78 he used to work in the kitchens prepping the veg and making the gravy. In those days hand blenders wern't around and they had to blend it by forcing the gravy through a collinder type thing. He said that alone would take 2 hours per pan. The pan was so big he had to wash it out with a hosepipe in the back yard. I asked him how big the pot was and he indicated it was about four foot diameter and about four foot high!! He told me they used to cut the chicken up and cook it in the gravy as well. I asked him why curries tasted different in the "good old days" and he said that for one thing there were only limited spices available back then, and also that technology has changed the way curries are made (read into that whatever you like). So in conclusion I would like to be able to confirm that Gravy / Base sauce was usaed in BIR's in the 70's

[Peripatetic Phil]

Please do.

I still have some recipe books (Indian, British published) dating back to then, so I may be able to fill in some gaps

OK, as requested :

1) From E P Veerasawmy, 1963/4/8 : ("Indian Cookery")

"Green ginger, and, very occasionally, green coriander, are perhaps rather difficult to get ..."

His recipes for Chicken Curries include :

Onion, garlic, chillies (fresh and./or ground), turmeric, coriander (fresh and/or ground), ghee, coconut milk, cumin, ground ginger, cardamom, cloves, fenugreek, yoghurt, black pepper, mustard seed, dessicated coconut.

Note that these do not all occur in the same recipe : I have simply listed the union of the various sets of ingredients specified.


2) Rosemary Brissenden, 1969/70 ("South East Asian Food")

"Coriander root, and coriander leaves, are not generally easy to buy ..."

Her recipes for Chicken Curries include :

Coriander seed, dried chillies, turmeric, green ginger, garlic, onions, cumin, black pepper, cinnamon bark, fenugreek, coconut milk, ghee, lemon juice, fennel seeds, curry leaves, lemon grass (remember title of book), mustard seeds, brown sugar, cardamom.


Hope this helps :
** Phil.

[George]

1) From E P Veerasawmy, 1963/4/8 : ("Indian Cookery")

I have that book. It's all about traditional Indian cooking which is about as far as you can get from anything to do with BIR.  Another red herring?

[Peripatetic Phil]

1) From E P Veerasawmy, 1963/4/8 : ("Indian Cookery")

I have that book. It's all about traditional Indian cooking which is about as far as you can get from anything to do with BIR.  Another red herring?

No, George, not another red herring. Jerry wrote "what i need help on from the members with good memory (and i may be asking too much ) is what veg was readily available in the 70's for curry ie fresh coriander as an example." and that is exactly the information I am offering him.  It matters not one iota whether the book is concerned with BIR cuisine or authentic Indian home cuisine so long as it provides information on what was, and what was not, easily available in the UK market at that time.

** Phil.

[JerryM]

Phil,

many thanks - that is a very good list and all i think i need to go on. just as a further example i already know that carrot can be added to the CR02 base and am pretty sure it would work in KD1 too. i've resisted including as i really think that BIR back then was much closer to traditional than it is today (obvious i suppose given the chicken and egg philosophy).

i intend to try out the recipe "as is" this weekend and report back. at the end of the day all of this is pure guess work. i'm well happy giving it a try though.

the only real area sitting uncomfortable is using bassar. the "spice mix" for this madras will make a big difference on the dish taste. i picked bassar purely down to ease (and the traditional link). i'm thinking for future of taking CA's curry powder mix and stripping it back along the lines of Phil's list to enable a spice mix to be produced along the lines of the mouchak.

as pointed out by mickdabass i am sure chicken taste was present although it could not be detected from the food. the idea from jb of putting the liquid from cooking chicken back into the base sits well and is something for the next stage of refinement.

ps

i am 100% sure that base existed. a while ago i used a restaurant in warrington and got very pally with the staff. this was in 1987 but the chef had been cooking for many years and although we did not put a date on it i am pretty sure it would have been early 70s. this restaurant had always used base.

[parker21]

hi jerry been thinking about this 1 quite a bit. if i am correct petes madras demo recipe from 2005 had very few ingredients to make the madras and had the taste, but whether it fits the bill of the 70's and 80's taste my curries started in the 90's. imo i believe curryhouse cookery base to be more of what a base would have been like in those decades but i think the ajwain seeds which needs to be balanced out. and the inclusion of spiced oil maybe apart of the this jigsaw. and possibly adding the sauce from the precooking of the chicken( if anyone has tried it) tried it at final dish stage and does give it another dimension ie savouriness.

regards
gary

[George]

I asked him why curries tasted different in the "good old days" and he said that for one thing there were only limited spices available back then

I doubt if any of the spices (turmeric, cumin, etc) which go into any 'spice blend' (curry powder) recipes were not available in the 1970s. I say they were all available.  It wasn't the Middle Ages, even if Pataks type pastes were not as extensive in terms of availability. The look and feel of the sauces was similar so I'm fairly sure they used base sauces. BIR curries tasted good then, and they still do now. I can't be sure there's much difference. I defy anyone to recall the precise nuances of taste from that long ago.