"Does it matter what a bhuna looks like ?"

[Malc.]

Well I think that encapsulates in a nutshell what I'm trying to say.

I do understand what your getting at but I can't agree wholeheartedly with regard to the Haryali, primarily as I have never seen the dish before. So I could argue that looks are important. I would also point out that for centuries, curries have been coloured, which is presumably to make them look more appealing.

But as I said before and correct if me If I am wrong, the topic and those prior to it were really about what a bhuna should be; a dryish dish fried in a hot pan or a fried dish in sauce.

I guess one man's meat is another man's poison, as long as we enjoy what we eat it's all that really matters.

[spiceyokooko]

I do understand what your getting at but I can't agree wholeheartedly with regard to the Haryali, primarily as I have never seen the dish before.

And as I said, sometimes you have to take a leap of faith from what your eyes tell you to what your taste buds say and that for me must be the final arbiter of what is good and bad tasting. What it tastes like.

I would also point out that for centuries, curries have been coloured, which is presumably to make them look more appealing.

No they haven't, at least not artificially coloured, that's a modern invention.

Interestingly enough I've been reading up on traditional Indian food recently and all traditional Indian food takes on the colour and appearance of the ingredients used within the dish, none of which I might add are artificial colourings.

Pilau rice is coloured yellow from saffron and/or turmeric - natural ingredients that add flavour. It's only modern BIR's that have taken to making multi-coloured rice through artificial food dyes that add nothing whatsoever to the taste. Rogan josh is traditionally reddish from the sheer number of tomatoes used in the dish, traditional vindaloo from the high number of red chilli's used in it, that's why it was/is a hot dish, modern BIR's just plonk in another couple of tsps of chilli and more tomato puree to what is basically a madras. A madras and a vindaloo are two quite different tasting dishes in traditional Indian cuisine, particualarly as a Vindaloo is a traditional dish and Madras is a modern BIR construct.

Tandoori chicken is red through the use of food dye - it was never red in traditional Indian cuisine, nor is it red in any traditional Indian home cooking either. Red food dye doesn't make tandoori chicken taste any different to one without it. Does redder tandoori chicken taste better than more orange tandoori chicken and does that taste better than one with no food colouring at all?

But as I said before and correct if me If I am wrong, the topic and those prior to it were really about what a bhuna should be; a dryish dish fried in a hot pan or a fried dish in sauce.

The subject came up because I cited CA getting annoyed at someone complaining that his Bhuna didn't look like a Bhuna and when asked to provide an example of what a Bhuna looked like, a dish with chicken swimming in sauce was given.

That led me to make the point that a Bhuna is a Bhuna when it tastes like a Bhuna, not when it looks like one. Both Sindhi meat/lamb and Bhuna Gohst use the same Bhuna cooking technique to produce an almost dry dish with little sauce. Which one's a Bhuna and which one isn't?

[Peripatetic Phil]

I would also point out that for centuries, curries have been coloured, which is presumably to make them look more appealing.

No they haven't, at least not artificially coloured, that's a modern invention.

Interestingly enough I've been reading up on traditional Indian food recently and all traditional Indian food takes on the colour and appearance of the ingredients used within the dish, none of which I might add are artificial colourings.

But Axe didn't say "artificially coloured", he said "coloured".  A traditional Indian chef would use Kashmiri chillies in order to enhance the red colour of a dish; this is "colouring" but not "artificial colouring".

** Phil.

[Peripatetic Phil]

Red food dye doesn't make tandoori chicken taste any different to one without it. Does redder tandoori chicken taste better than more orange tandoori chicken and does that taste better than one with no food colouring at all?

Yes, it does, at least to we Britons.  Because that is the colour to which the majority of BIR customers are accustomed, and therefore the colour that they expect.  If their expectations are not met, they will judge the flavour inferior, whether or not it actually is.  You cannot separate the psychology of food from the physical manifestation of its taste.

** Phil.

[spiceyokooko]

A traditional Indian chef would use Kashmiri chillies in order to enhance the red colour of a dish; this is "colouring" but not "artificial colouring".

Certainly traditional dishes like Rogan Josh get their red colouring from as I've already said, tomatoes, but also the use of Kashmiri chilli's. Given that Rogan Josh is a dish that originates from the Kashmir region, it also necessarily follows they would use chilli's from that region within it. Traditional Indian food is very much regional ingredient based.

I'd certainly be interested in another example of where Kashmiri chilli's are used to colour a dish from the South of India, such as Goa or Kerala, given that Kashmir is in the North of the country.

But this still shouldn't detract from the point I'm making. Which is, artificial colourants as used in modern BIR's add nothing to the flavour and taste of the food they're added to, they are used for appearance only.

As home cooks, it is simply unnecessary for us to blindly follow this practice when at the end of the day we should be primarily interested in what something tastes like, not what it looks like. Unless of course you want to dazzle your dinners guests with a sumptious array of brightly coloured Indian food.

[Peripatetic Phil]

But this still shouldn't detract from the point I'm making. Which is, artificial colourants as used in modern BIR's add nothing to the flavour and taste of the food they're added to, they are used for appearance only.

And this is where we disagree.  Artificial colourants, if used to ensure that a dish meets a customer's expectations, /will/ enhance the flavour of the dish :  I add green, red and yellow food colourings to my pulao rice (separately, well separated, and in small quantities only) so that the rice meets my expectations as to what a "good" pulao rice will look like.  If I can achieve the right balance of colours, the rice /will/ taste better as a result (so long as my spicing is also up to par).  As I wrote above, you simply cannot ignore the psychology of food :  it is an intrinsic part of the culinary experience.

** Phil.

[chonk]

Hey, spiceyokooko!

Pilau rice is coloured yellow from saffron and/or turmeric - natural ingredients that add flavour. It's only modern BIR's that have taken to making multi-coloured rice through artificial food dyes that add nothing whatsoever to the taste. Rogan josh is traditionally reddish from the sheer number of tomatoes used in the dish,

I'm not sure about that. The muslims of Kashmir did and do use the cockscomb plant, and they used and/or still use "Ratan Jot" (Alkanna tinctoria).

Tandoori chicken is red through the use of food dye - it was never red in traditional Indian cuisine, nor is it red in any traditional Indian home cooking either.

I believe that indian street vendors began to colour their tandoori chicken to distance themselves from the products of their competition, and let people believe, it's in some way superior. But I'm with you, personally I'm not a fan of artificial colouring. In fact, I find that fake red look highly unappetising, and use only kashmiri mirch, deggi mirch, paprika and tomato paste, to give a few dishes more (natural) colour. Just a matter of taste.

Greetings!

[failsafe]

Everyone seems to have a genuine point. You look with your eyes first and that definitely sends the very first impression  followed by the aroma and taste. These impressions seem to be the determining factor of all curry's that i have experienced over years and years. It's what i, and indeed i would suggest the majority of members, have been 'brought up on'. You don't expect a Bhuna to be 'green' or any other colour. Are we prejudiced after so many years of experiencing the 'standard' or 'norm'? Because sometimes though this can be misplaced and erroneous. If you were born blind you wouldn't know the colour and would rely on your other senses to determine whether the taste, texture etc was to your liking. Thus the question is: when is a Bhuna, a Bhuna 
just a thought to consider, perhaps.

[spiceyokooko]

I'm not sure about that. The muslims of Kashmir did and do use the cockscomb plant, and they used and/or still use "Ratan Jot" (Alkanna tinctoria).

Interesting.

Do you have any more information on why they used these? Was it for religious reasons? I was reading yesterday that Indian Muslims exempted certain vegetables from their fast for some reason, something to do with the health properties or religious.

I believe that indian street vendors began to colour their tandoori chicken to distance themselves from the products of their competition, and let people believe, it's in some way superior.

I agree. I think Tandoori chicken was originally coloured with Kashmiri Chillis to give it that reddish colour which is now emulated with artificial food dye in todays BIRs! 

[spiceyokooko]

Thus the question is: when is a Bhuna, a Bhuna

When it tastes like one 

But you mention an interesting point - aroma and taste. Aroma is very closely linked to taste and smell is the most sensitive of the senses.

It's interesting.

If you were blindfolded for example and were given say half a dozen Indian BIR dishes to smell, which one would you choose to eat? In the same way, if your blindfold was taken off, would you then change your mind based on what the dishes looked like?

I'm not convinced that appearance guides our choice in terms of what something should taste like. It's a con perpetuated upon us by wily restauranteurs to mislead us into thinking dishes are going to taste better than they actually are.

That's not to say a dish's appearance isn't important, it is, but when we sit down in a BIR restaurant to select from the menu, we make choices on dish descriptions, and past taste experience - not on what they look like.