Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on May 07, 2012, 10:05 AM
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George got me thinking in his post about how to analyse oil. Haldi then added to my thoughts and felt it would be good to get others observations on what BIR's do with their oil (George/Haldi org post http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8269.msg73701#msg73701 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8269.msg73701#msg73701)):
I find the fact that the missing taste/smell, can't be nailed down, extremely upsetting
I too am reluctantly starting to think this may be difficult to nail down.
I am now sure it is to do with the oil (and delivered through the base).
I'm also referring to best BIR curries not the norm.
i've pretty much come to Haldi's conclusion. i'm 100% confident that improvement does not sit with the following:
1) recipe fresh ingredients
2) frying the spices
I think we need to know more about how oil is treated in a BIR. from when it enters the shop to when it leaves in the container. how it gets into the base and when it comes out. we can fill in from our learning what most of the journey is but i'm sure we don't know the full story.
we individually must know a few of the pieces that collectively we can put some better understanding on.
i know many say fresh oil. ok.
curry2go says bhaji oil. zaal says veg ghee.
my local TA take it off the top of the base. nagging at the back of my mind is what they do as the base lowers in the stock pot - not as easy to scoop or if the dreaded happened - no more oil on the top to chef spoon off.
this picture below by Mark J wraps the whole problem up for me (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=782.msg7237#msg7237 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=782.msg7237#msg7237))
then to add insight artistpaul puts lian into the frame as the starting point for Chinese (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3295.msg44462#msg44462 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3295.msg44462#msg44462))
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=782.0;attach=274)
what i do know is my reclaimed oil tastes pretty good. it's not as good as i tasted in the sample of BIR base.
ps the way i feel is best to taste compare the oil is to freeze and then wet finger taste the surface.
all thoughts appreciated.
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Hi Jerry, thanks for your thoughts.
I honestly think that searching for the 'secret ingredient' within oil, is a red herring. It most definitely plays it's part and without it, we couldn't achieve that BIR aroma but it's what you add to it that creates the taste, and not what you add it to!
I also think that we have to be careful in trusting our noses when trying to identify 'that' aroma!
I have to admit, when I'm in the full throws of a BIR cooking session, I can not separate individual smells and it takes me at least a good hour to recover. Unfortunately, I have previously thought a curry left to stand, helps develop the flavour and the aroma, and to some extent, I would say that still stands but I'm leaning more towards the fact that the 'standing' time is more beneficial to me than it is of the curry. My senses recover and I can actually taste the dish in all it's glory.
Now, spoon off some of the oil made in that dish, and set it aside or in the fridge. Take it out and have a smell. To me, it absolutely smacks of that BIR aroma, so for me, the aroma is created at the frying stage and not so much in the base. I don't really subscribe to Julians theory of using seasoned (bhaji) oil, as I think the oil's flavour is too subtle to come through in a 10lt + size base. Of course, I will be in a better position to comment after my visit to c2g in June.
For me, it's spices (ground or whole) tempered in oil that creates the aroma with the addition of the garlic and ginger and of course, the onion contained in the base gravy. I just feel that as we are cooking our dishes, we don't always realise it.
Ray :)
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For me, it's spices (ground or whole) tempered in oil that creates the aroma with the addition of the garlic and ginger and of course, the onion
Ray :)
*cough cough*
Deep Frying "Onion bhaji's" will do exactly that to the oil Ray ;)
cheers
Layne
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What are we actually tasting when we take a mouthful of our finished curry? I mean what wraps itself around your tongue and transmits the flavours to your taste buds? More than anything else I'd say it's the oil. It makes a lot of sense therefore that a curry would improve from one day to the next, or even in 10 mins standing time after cooking. Whatever helps the flavours of the spices, the natural sugars from frying the onions, etc dissolve into the oil will in theory help the flavour of the oil.
In a restaurant there's usually an interval between your curry being cooked and making it onto your table and a takeaway has a time delay before it reaches you.
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I honestly think that searching for the 'secret ingredient' within oil, is a red herring.
I disagree with you for once, and think Jerry's thoughts and ideas are spot-on. I reckon most of the special aroma is in the oil, so the question then becomes "how does it get there?"
I think a lot of places MIGHT be economical with the truth. Didn't the Fleet chef say he uses only fresh oil in a base? i wonder!
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I must say that yesterday I cooked onion bhajis for the first time since I discovered this site. So, i thought I would cook some curries using the bhaji oil to see what all the fuss was about.
So far, i have only used fresh canola or sunflower oil to cook curries and I have been very happy with the results.
We had a few mates over last night, so i cooked up 6 curries with the bhaji oil. Now, maybe I had been "spiced out" with cooking, but I can honestly say that for me personally, I will stick to using fresh oil for each curry. I didn't notice any difference at all. Like I say, my tastebuds were probably shot because of cooking up 6 ruby's, but I didn't enjoy the food as much as normal.
My mates all seemed to enjoy them, in fact I know they enjoyed them, so..............who knows.
Next time I will cook up just one curry and try it with the bhaji oil, just to satisfy my curiosity, but, unless it really does say something, I am gonna stick to fresh oil each time.
Just the thought of using old oil turns me off the food straight away. I know my parents used to cook chips in lard that had been used dozens and dozens of times, and they tasted better the older the lard got, but....seriously, they didn't know about trans fats and other nasty stuff back then.
Surely, old oil that has been heated and cooled, and cooked other stuff several times is not healthy?
Just my thoughts. 8)
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(http://i47.tinypic.com/34zwug0.jpg)
Having read most or perhaps all of the posts here regarding "Spiced or Bhaji Oil"
it's obvious everyone has totally different opinions on the subject
and hey wouldn't it be a strange old world if everyone agreed on something eh
Anyway just thought I'd post a pic of my "Bhaji or Spiced Oil" = Pure Liquid Gold :P
(in the plastic is a Curry sauce using the Oil) it's bloody lovely
Using "Fresh Oil" my Curries have a completely different taste smell and appearence !!!
just my opinion guys
cheers
Layne
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(http://i47.tinypic.com/34zwug0.jpg)
Having read most or perhaps all of the posts here regarding "Spiced or Bhaji Oil"
it's obvious everyone has totally different opinions on the subject
and hey wouldn't it be a strange old world if everyone agreed on something eh
Anyway just thought I'd post a pic of my "Bhaji or Spiced Oil" = Pure Liquid Gold :P
(in the plastic is a Curry sauce using the Oil) it's bloody lovely
Using "Fresh Oil" my Curries have a completely different taste smell and appearence !!!
just my opinion guys
cheers
Layne
God ! thats a Heart attack in a tub :o
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God ! thats a Heart attack in a tub :o
Yep just the way I like it
Everyone's gotta die sometime !
But what a wonderful way to go eh killed by eating Curry ha ha ha
cheers
Layne
:P
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I must say that yesterday I cooked onion bhajis for the first time since I discovered this site. So, i thought I would cook some curries using the bhaji oil to see what all the fuss was about.
So far, i have only used fresh canola or sunflower oil to cook curries and I have been very happy with the results.
We had a few mates over last night, so i cooked up 6 curries with the bhaji oil. Now, maybe I had been "spiced out" with cooking, but I can honestly say that for me personally, I will stick to using fresh oil for each curry. I didn't notice any difference at all. Like I say, my tastebuds were probably shot because of cooking up 6 ruby's, but I didn't enjoy the food as much as normal.
My mates all seemed to enjoy them, in fact I know they enjoyed them, so..............who knows.
Next time I will cook up just one curry and try it with the bhaji oil, just to satisfy my curiosity, but, unless it really does say something, I am gonna stick to fresh oil each time.
Just the thought of using old oil turns me off the food straight away. I know my parents used to cook chips in lard that had been used dozens and dozens of times, and they tasted better the older the lard got, but....seriously, they didn't know about trans fats and other nasty stuff back then.
Surely, old oil that has been heated and cooled, and cooked other stuff several times is not healthy?
Just my thoughts. 8)
Hi Mick, it takes the frying of many many Bhaji's to reach the level of flavour required ;)
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Copied and Paste my post from another thread you might find interesting :)
Following this and JerryM's thread http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8347.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8347.0) highlighting MarkJ's thread it got my mind buzzing I got the mini fryer out of the cupboard and had a good sniff.. Wow ! BIR ! I called the Wife to have a sniff and she confirmed this was exactly the smell that fills the house following us having a takeaway.
So I took a couple of ladles out and put into a dish and had another sniff yep that's it !
Just made 3 curry's using this oil,put some in the base (approx 75ml) some on the pre cooked chicken,and some in the final curry's.
I have resisted the temptation to scoff the lot and will reheat tomorrow evening as I want all my senses to be clear from spices as when I would be when buying a takeaway.
I did taste the curry's when adding salt and the taste was promising.
In my previous attempt at using Bhaji oil and if I'm honest the oil was a bit past it and smelt more acrid than BIR !
Will post results tomorrow
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I too, am now using bhaji oil. As sceptical as a lot of others, i tasted the oil just after straining it through a sieve and it did indeed taste like onion bhajis,
The last curry i made was CH's NIS, it was also the 1st time i've tried the oil. I have to say i tweaked the dish slightly and used some premade C2G onion sauce instead of prefrying the onions as specified.
I don't know if it was the oil, or the fact that the recipe is top notch, but it was my best effort to date and can honestly say i've reached my curry making goal!
I took the remaining portion straight round to a mates house who also loves his curries and to quote his response "thats as good as your gonna get from any curryhouse". He's tasted a few of my curries now and is not the kind of chap to lie and inflate my ego. Now i have to admit, i dont profess to be able to make the best curry in the land, but it really was THAT good and can honestly say if i can keep delivering that standard of curry, then my goals reached :)
Was is the bhaji oil or the supernatural curry magic at work? Who know's but long may it continue!! ;)
W
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Well assuming that bhaji oil turns out to be significant (and that's still to be proven I would say) maybe the next challenge will be to develop a technique to season oil in a quicker & cheaper way than frying 300 bhajis!
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I would like to think that boiling whole spices in oil could match the flavour of Bhaji oil but I've tried that and It didn't have the depth of flavour or aroma of the Bhaji oil :-\
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I don't know if it was the oil, or the fact that the recipe is top notch, but it was my best effort to date and can honestly say i've reached my curry making goal!
It's my recipe of course ;) I'm sure the additon of C2G's onion sauce would have made a slight difference to the taste vs the way i precook mine. But I doubt the overall flavour would have changed entirely because of it.
He's tasted a few of my curries now and is not the kind of chap to lie and inflate my ego. Now i have to admit, i dont profess to be able to make the best curry in the land, but it really was THAT good and can honestly say if i can keep delivering that standard of curry, then my goals reached :)
Was is the bhaji oil or the supernatural curry magic at work? Who know's but long may it continue!! ;)
W
No W, it was simply the chef putting it together. Well done and long may it continue and improve further ;D As for the bhaji oil, i've yet to be convinced that it is essential to achieving BIR taste or smell. The debate on the use of seasoned / reclaimed oil has been going on since this site first started. It gets discussed, then we explore something else, then we discuss it some more and again go off down another avenue. Then we come back to it yet again. Some people swear by it, others will have none of it.
I've no doubt that many restaurants up and down the country recycle their oil as it reduces costs and will add an additional flavour to the gravy, maybe. Based on others accounts here of restaurant experiences and my own experiences i'm also sure there are as many restaurants that don't and use only fresh oil. For those members who know their local BIR uses it I can understand their continued belief in the need for its inclusion and belief that it's one of the essential magical ingredients. Until several members on here turn round and shout EUREKA - it's all about the recycled / onion bhaji oil, and prove this conclusively, i'm afraid i've no intention of chasing my tail. But good luck to those who do.
I've recently cooked with bhaji oil (well flavoured i might add as i now get a regualar order for my BIR bhajis) It didn't make the slightest appreciable difference to the overall taste or flavour of the dish. I think Unclefrank mentions CBM's method of precooking vegetable, which in my opinion produces a very fine BIR tasting and lovely smelling oil. Again i've used it and there was no significant step change in the taste of the finished article. For those that have tried my brinjal bhaji recipe and done it exactly to spec, the oil that remains after you've consumed the aubergine, in my opinion is as good as any you'll get from any other source. And this is simply achieved by the frying of ginger / garlic mix spice and turmeric and diluted tomato paste.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/6b5cb548e64da41b2af29a78366d8cb5.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#6b5cb548e64da41b2af29a78366d8cb5.JPG)
Like Razor, my opion for what it's worth, is that whilst it will add something, which may be essential for some members, its addition for me and possibly other members is of little significance.
There are plenty of other avenues for me to explore at the moment, particularly in the area of the base gravy (excluding the addition of reclaimed / bhaji oil ;D).
I'm sure many will disagree but that's my opinion which i'm entitled to. If someone can provided me with cast iron evidence to the contrary i am only to willing to listen and be persuaded otherwise ;)
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Well assuming that bhaji oil turns out to be significant (and that's still to be proven I would say) maybe the next challenge will be to develop a technique to season oil in a quicker & cheaper way than frying 300 bhajis!
CA posted a recipe for "making" spiced oil a while back and you can get it from this link:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3295.msg34667#msg34667 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3295.msg34667#msg34667)
Given that this thread is called "what do we know about oil in BIRs" from the posts so far I would have to conclude, "very little" as there seems to be no consensus. I have made curries with fresh oil and bhaji oil and I fall into the camp of not noticing any real difference. My instinct tells me that this is another search for the holy grail which will ultimately end up at the end of a cul-de-sac.
Until someone can prove to that oil DOES make a difference AND can provide a technique will demonstrates this AND one that can be replicated across different curries and different cooks then I remain sceptical.
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I have recently delved into the world of using whole spices hoping to achieve that certain difficult to describe aroma that comes from a good BIR curry and although I have produced some cracking curry's that lingering aroma is still not there :-\ my previous 'Bhaji oil' attempt was a bit of a disaster but that was due to the rancid state of the oil ::)
From that point I had dismissed Bhaji oil as being part of the 'Holy Grail' until I again today took some 'Bhaji oil' from my mini fryer,this time it was instantly recognisable :o my Wife who is also a curry nut agreed that it was definitely the T/A aroma so this afternoon I made three curry's using the Bhaji oil which will be tomorrow nights tea :P it's now 10.30pm and the house is still filled with the aroma of the Bhaji oil.
If this does prove to me that this is the flavour/aroma I have been striving for I then need to work out how the BIR's get this oil into their curry's and my guess would be the base gravy.
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Hi Mick, it takes the frying of many many Bhaji's to reach the level of flavour required ;)
Yes, and I think any aroma is probably due more to the frying of onion and flour, rather than spices as such, or perhaps due to a combination of everything together, and certainly not only due to pure spices.
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i'm afraid i've no intention of chasing my tail.
Me neither, why consider bhaji/old /near rancid/burned oil as important, when a wealth of information on here, ie video footage from named restaurants, chefs knowledge, incredibly "experienced amateurs", & people who have actually worked in bir kitchens, prove otherwise. ???
The Zaal info, told me:
The gravy recipe's on cr0 are good to go!
Msg was not added!
Ground spice can be cooked for longer than I was led to believe!
Cooking a dish at home will take slightly longer than the time shown in the professional kitchen videos
The frying stage up to the gravy,has to be done correctly, ie rawness removed
It was all the information I needed to confirm, that everything I need is here & always has been!
Fresh oil / GG or Garlic only /spice/methi/salt/ tomato paste(crucial these are fried properly) / base gravy bir aroma here - Hard bit over :)
The addition of mixed pickle, Banjarra onion paste, any other onion paste,'Magic Sauce', masala / Jhal paste, extra garlic/ginger, tikka meat, chilli sauce, mango chutney, cream, spinach........... is where the complex flavours from. Apologies if this is patronising anyone, but I've never made onion bhajis in my life never mind use the leftover oil
Regards
ELW
Ps - If I found out for sure than my fav bir's used oild fryer oil rather than fresh, I'd find somewhere else to dine >:( other than penny pinching, there is no need for it
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Just walked in the door from work to a lovely curry cloud wafting around the house :P BIR ? very close and close enough for me to be convinced the BIR taste/aroma is brought about by the oil, the flavour of the curry definitely had the BIR flavour about it but the flavour was a little too strong but as I used the oil in the base,precooked chicken and final dish I'm not surprised ::) the only thing that seemed to be missing was the fragrant spices and maybe I should have used the Zaal base which I had added the whole spices,instead I used curry2go base.
My next plan is to put Asian bay leaves,green cardamom,cinnamon and star anice into my mini fryer,this should flavour the Bhajis plus give me a flavoured oil with the fragrant spices playing their part.
Next time I will only add the Bhaji oil to the base gravy and see how that goes,I do think this is worth investigating ..again ::) ;)
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ELW, many of the forum members can no doubt produce wonderful looking and tasting curry's but probably most would also agree there is still that missing ' something '. As George recently found the oil that remained on the paper carrier he had from his takeaway had this ' something ' which is in the form of an aroma and a certain flavour that is difficult to describe and despite all my efforts using different recipes for base gravy,spice mix,etc and different technique as in high heat,low heat that certain ' something ' is still missing :'(
The aroma from my Bhaji oil had that ' something ' and I had dismissed Bhaji oil due to a poor attempt on my part some time ago,this oil is the only product that gets very close to that missing elusive BIR aroma.
With the amount of Bhajis etc BIR's fry in their oil it must have a very intense flavour and maybe just a ladle or two in a base gravy is all it takes :-\ I wish someone could prove otherwise as I am not overkeen on using recycled oil but Bhaji oil seems favourite to me at the moment. ;)
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i was recently in my kebab shop which does curries, kebabs, pakora, i get my normal at lunchtime - spicy chicken and chips, they basically cook the chicken in base gravy, add the usual suspects and then - ADD SPECIAL OIL , i have noticed this loads of times now and it gives the amazing flavour -
maybe this thread should be followed up further?
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maybe this thread should be followed up further?
Abdul - are you or anyone else who works in a BIRreading this? Can you help us with the answer to where the aroma under discussion comes from?
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Hi
There may be a chance that reclaimed oil adds something to a curry but i am not a believer.
It CANNOT be the missing ingredient because as we have seen from micks videos, chewy videos, etc the restaurants they use do not use reclaimed oil. Other takeaways may use it but as there are some who do, some who don't, both producing very good curries I assume (from micks feedback), then this cannot be the missing ingredient. Possibly only an improvement for some people which may be what their t/a uses!
Regards
Barry
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I completely agree with you on this one Barry and for the reasons you state.
Also, last night I achieved one of those 'moments' we all hope to experience. After more than 25 years trying to replicate the taste of a mushroom bhaji from what was then my local T/A in Sunderland from the 1980s, I finally made it. In smell, taste, and texture it was precisely what I've been trying through so many false dawns to accomplish......and it was all done with fresh veg. oil, no fancy additions.
My feeling is that the Zeera group found the 'missing link' for us in the technique they observed. Certainly the flavour of all my curry attempts has improved substantially as a result.
al.
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Hi
There may be a chance that reclaimed oil adds something to a curry but i am not a believer.
It CANNOT be the missing ingredient because as we have seen from micks videos, chewy videos, etc the restaurants they use do not use reclaimed oil. Other takeaways may use it but as there are some who do, some who don't, both producing very good curries I assume (from micks feedback), then this cannot be the missing ingredient. Possibly only an improvement for some people which may be what their t/a uses!
Regards
Barry
That is why I thought CBM's video of a chef from the Little India making a base gravy from scratch was so important in answering this debate.Finally we can clearly see a chef who doesn't use recalimed oil,and least not in his base,and as Mick confirms the place does top notch food.
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Hi
Have been thinking about this issue and just though I would type out some ideas and thoughts...
Paper bag smell as mentioned here (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8269.msg73813#msg73813 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8269.msg73813#msg73813)) - I have to agree, when we get a TA from the local, the poppadoms come in a brown paper bag and the bag smells great. I agree it is odd to stand there sniffing paper bags, but there you go....
I have a big dedicated bhaji and poppadom frying pot which since its last change of oil has now had around 50 or so combination Rajah and TRS poppadoms cooked in it and no bhajis so far. When the poppadoms are cooked and stood in the toast rack to drain, they smell identical to the aroma from the TA paper bag and the TA's poppadoms.
What does this conclude so far? - not a lot ;) - however when I cook a curry I generally make several poppadoms too to accompany the curry. The combination of these two goes a long way to satisfying all the aroma senses that one would expect from a BIR style curry. Obviously it cannot be just like the TA because they are making many other dishes too. But the key aroma is there.
This basically leads me to mull over at least the following:
I don't really detect or taste any different oil background in the curry from the BIR's and TA's I have been to in the local area (Fleet, Farnham area) in recent times. But when I open the TA bag it has the aroma we are all talking about, and generally expecially strong when there are some poppadom and or some bhajis in there too. Is that aroma actually in the main curry such as the madras? - tipping it out onto a plate by itself and isolating it from all the other stuff it appears to loose the aroma.
Is there any reasons such as hygiene laws, new or recent or have always been that would prohibit the re-use of fryer oil in another food product that would be subsequently prepared or sold such as a base gravy?. Such that at one time it would have been wide spread practice but now only a few places do so out of habit, cost cutting, or just because that is the way their chef does and has always done things?
What if there was no re-used oil added to the base or the the final dish and in fact there is actually only the aroma of the fryer oil impregnated into all the TA packaging? - after all, the fryers must be on every night all night producing huge amounts of oil vapour into the whole of the kitchen, some of it must seep into every surface, pot and pan.
But we do know however that the occasional TA does use fryer oil such as the one that Haldi has asked and seen doing so.
I would suggest it is worth giving our friends the poppadoms a little more credit for the aroma too. Its not just about the bhaji's stealing the aroma show I suspect!
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Russ, i get exactly where you're coming from. Maybe the little brown bags come pre- impregnated with BIR aroma ;) One thing is for sure, we are all familiar with that smell that comes from that brown bag when we've just taken delivery.
Next time i cook i'll put my empty containers in one of these bags and check it out the next day. I'll even spill some oil in the bag too :D One thing i am aware of is that my used containers don't smell much different, if at all, from my takeaways, and other than on the two occasions i tried bhaji oil and that from CBM's precooked vegetable dish, I have only ever used fresh oil or veg ghee.
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thanks for the responses. not what i was after but that's not a negative - it's important to close off naff ideas as well as investigate promising
i was after any observations relevant to BIR's and oil.
if you personally are happy using plain or fresh oil then no problem. i am in no doubt that many BIR use it.
i'm still undecided on bhajis oil. not that it does not work but undecided on whether it will produce the quality that i'm after.
i've used reclaimed oil from base for a long time. it's pretty good but not as good as my local TA base oil (by a long distance).
when i saw Mark J's photo a few years ago i just scrolled by. now i have much of my gap sorted the picture or oil has resurfaced so to speak.
i was quite amazed to think that BIR's have so much of the oil that they could box just like curry for TA. i know they must get through some oil but seeing it in a carton puts a different light on it for me.
very simply how do they get the strength and taste range. it must be simple - of all the things i've learnt about BIR it's very clear that nothing is done without reason but nothing is done the hard way.
i have my thoughts but no insight on what happens in a BIR - hence the post.
going forward i intend to test out individual whole spice. the aim to adjust the tgad2007 roasted whole spice "chef garam" that i currently use in base. i also want to prove or not my previous finding of not to use curry powder in base (which for me makes mix powder in base a no no).
i also want to revisit the sort of time issue. i've found in the past that by recycling the reclaimed oil into the next base it possessively gets stronger. the question for me is whether this is the only way of increasing strength or can the amount of spice be simply increased.
the only thing i can offer on the "debate" is that is all down to the strength of what you are using and expectations. if bhajis or whatever has not worked for you then it's very likely that what was used was not up to the spec needed. for example i've only used chip/bhaji oil on 1 off occasion and the effect was far too much.
if you're still undecided on "oil" or "whatever it actually is" just try putting say some mix powder in a small amount of oil and taste it. then try some chef garam and you will soon be hooked - does 3 days storage improve it or is heating the best way. try freezing it as this seems to be the best way of comparative testing. the final pass or fail although some way off being the carrier bag.
the "whatever it actually is" could even be a mix of all contenders (including v.ghee and butter ghee). the only thing important in terms of producing best curry is to get to the point of realising the "whatever it is" is missing.
i think Haldi and CA must have already discovered it's missing. it just had not dawned on me till now - since doing a back to basics using ifindforu's base (which is very good, contains curry powder and uses fresh oil).
not got any answers for a change but well happy.
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HI
I think the idea of making a curry, popadoms etc into a bag and leave it sitting to see if the smell is the same is a good idea but mentioned anywhere else apart from a curry forum, you would prob be shot :)
Solarspace - the bag sniffing comment made me chuckle ;D
regards
barry
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Everything & everyone in a bir kitchen stinks of "curry" :)
Edit- But they don't know they do
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Hi
There may be a chance that reclaimed oil adds something to a curry but i am not a believer.
It CANNOT be the missing ingredient because as we have seen from micks videos, chewy videos, etc the restaurants they use do not use reclaimed oil. Other takeaways may use it but as there are some who do, some who don't, both producing very good curries I assume (from micks feedback), then this cannot be the missing ingredient. Possibly only an improvement for some people which may be what their t/a uses!
Regards
Barry
Hi Barry, that's exactly what I meant in my previous post, the evidence on here points to fresh oil. Of the people who are/have been/in & around the business, I can only think of c2g who has stated old bhajioil as important. We'd have to call it pakora oil in Glasgow!
Regards
ELW
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After more than 25 years trying to replicate the taste of a mushroom bhaji from what was then my local T/A in Sunderland from the 1980s, I finally made it.
I would love it if you posted your recipe for this!
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After more than 25 years trying to replicate the taste of a mushroom bhaji from what was then my local T/A in Sunderland from the 1980s, I finally made it.
I would love it if you posted your recipe for this!
I most definitely second that :P
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I'll third that request ... please alarmist ;)
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i'll add a 4th. until last night i thought it was like onion bhajis. how wrong i was.
just loved it. mushrooms now twice in a month. 1 in curry shop the other in UB's pasta bake - both brill.
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I'd 5th it!!
Anyone for a 6th?
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Sixthded. :)
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Hi Folks,
When I come home from working in the restaurant, or even at the cooking classes we run which is a good 6-7 hours of prep and cooking. I reek of curry, now I can't even smell it, but my wife can.
The next morning though, I can smell it in my clothes or even in my backpack that I take.
In fact, I could even smell it in the plastic bag that I had the extension cord packed in!
The aroma gets everywhere and it is just due to those things being in the kitchen where things are being fried, boiled, and the subsequent particles being absorbed into whatever is around. So yes, brown paper bags that have been in the restaurant will absorb some of those particles and will smell.
People walking in to the restaurant will smell it, but those who have been in the cooking classes all day won't as they have been in there all day. But they will smell it the next day on things.
Cheers,
Mark
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Thanks for the expressions of interest, gents! Incidentally, I ate the remainder of the bhaji the following night just to make sure I hadn't deceived myself.....and it was superb. Here's the recipe:
MUSHROOM BHAJI
Ingredients:
3 tbsp oil
1 heaped tbsp onion, coarsely chopped
1 birds eye chilli, chopped
? large green capsicum coarsely chopped
1 fresh tomato, quartered
1 heaped tsp tomato puree diluted with 4 tsp water
1 tbsp garlic/ginger paste ? I use 3 large garlic cloves + ?" ginger
1 desert spoon (dsp) spice mix
1 tsp chilli powder
? tsp salt
? pint basic curry sauce
Small can mushrooms (drained and washed to remove salt)
Method:
1. In a separate pan, heat curry base to a gentle simmer
2. Heat 3tbsp oil in wok on high heat
3. Add onion, tomato, green capsicum & salt and fry for a couple of minutes or so stirring continuously
4. Add garlic/ginger & fry for about a minute, stirring all the time
5. Remove from heat & add chilli powder and spice mix. Stir and return to heat.
6. Fry for about 30 seconds using the Zeera Restaurant technique, then add tomato puree & fry for a further 30 seconds or so on high heat stirring continuously
7. Add 2tbsp basic curry sauce, stir for 1 minute & add rest of base gravy 2 tbsp at a time ? make sure first two are ?absorbed? before adding more
8. Add small can mushrooms
9. Cook on high heat for 3 minutes ? add water if it starts to dry out
10. Reduce heat & simmer gently for 3 minutes
11. Turn off the gas and let it ?rest?.
As usual to my mind, the 'Zeera Technique' is the key at step 6. Timing does need care, but just when you think you can't go on any longer, that's the time to keep stirring!
Hope you enjoy the results as much as I did.
al.
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that's great alarmist thanks for posting this - am assuming the ? mean 1/4?
Gonna try this at the weekend - do you ever make it with fresh musrooms?
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Hi Al
Thanks for sharing your Bhaji recipe.
Interesting that you say the Zeera Restaurant technique, as I'm involved in Zeera, I'm curious to where you have taken your reference from i.e. which post or video.
Also interested in which TA in Sunderland did you use back in the 80's, as I was involved with the Melting Pot Group of BIR and TA's back then
the Moti Raj being their flagship Restaurant.
My early memories on Mushrooms, in the main, they used dried catering mushrooms, which were soaked in water to rehydrate.
Can't remember anybody using tinned mushrooms at all.
The chef at Zeera only uses fresh and has done since the restaurant opened.
On the oil front for the OP, at Zeera, clean fresh oil in the base and the curries.
cheers Chewy
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I'm a bit confused Alarmist10 do you mean the Zaal technique and not the Zeera technique???
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alarmist10,
as all - much appreciate and will certainly make. i might even need to knock up a small portion of base or even reluctantly freeze a few portions in future.
the recipe sounds exactly like the 1st time i tried it this week (in restaurant). for those who not tried the nearest i can describe it to is - bhuna with amplitude.
for me and only picky and the fact we have abundant fresh - no tin mushroom.
best wishes,
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1st week of trials is done. intend setting out observations in case it prompts any grey cells.
observation no 1 - infusion
had 2 off sample each containing ifindforu mix powder. 1 off was heated the other just left. each being shaken and tasted each day. the 1 off heated was by far the best. infusion for me is a no.
this sort of raises another unknown which needs to be kept in mind "parked" for now. i mod tom sauce by adding chilli powder (1 tsp per 500g bottle). the taste seems to improve over say 3days which i'd thought down to infusion. i've recently added a 2nd variety adding mix powder to sort of make a curry sauce version ie i have 3 off bottles of tom sauce in the cupboard: plain, chilli, curry. for the chilli powder you could put down just to the time to mix through. not for the mix powder though - simple mixing would not develop the flavour.
from what i've seen this week infusion is not the mechanism. so leaving something longer won't work.
observation no 2 - oil seems to suck up some spice better than others
had 1 off sample of combined tgad/Zaal chef garam and 1 off jalpur. the jalpur is in a different league in getting to the BIR oil taste.
i currently can't understand why the step difference - yes the black cardamom is a factor but there are other really good spice in the tgad/zaal which are not coming through into the oil - a wet finger taste of the powder and they are there but not in the oil. again a unknown and parked for the moment.
question now being is roasting as good as infusing fresh whole spice ie akhni. my current thought is that they are the same or equivalent. this needs to be resolved - which is best or do they perform different functions
ps have abandoned the freezing. the pure oil unlike the pukka reclaimed defrosts too quickly. have reverted to dipping handle of tea spoon. it's difficult to switch tastings though.
next week:
intend to look at increasing amount of spice and if possible carrying forward oil into the next sample. going to use the tgad/zaal as making this work seems the real challenge.
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I made the Mushroom Bhaji tonight and it was excellent - thanks alarmist!
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A few points of clarification on the Mushroom Bhaji recipe, if I may......
Stephen: I'm really pleased you had success with the recipe! Apologies that the quantities didn't all appear correctly in the posting of the recipe. To avoid confusion, it should be "quarter of a green capsicum....", half a tsp of salt, and half a pint of basic curry sauce. I use tinned mushrooms because we can't easily get fresh ones here. As a help to others who might make the dish, how many fresh ones did you use??
jb: of course you are quite right. Old age, stupidity, and recent reading/viewing of CT's video made me put 'Zeera' when I should have typed 'Zaal'. Sorry for the confusion.
JerryM: "bhuna with amplitude".....what a great phrase!!
CT: sorry to confuse you with the Zeera reference (see above). The T/A in Sunderland was a small one on Hilton Road but I can't recall the name. It used to do a brilliant Chicken Vindaloo as well.
Happy cooking.
al.
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the Mushroom Bhaji recipe
Thank you
I tried this using CBM's Little India Gravy
It was a really great curry
The simplicity appeals, too
I loved the tinned mushrooms
I think they have a more intense flavour than fresh, and I've seen several takeaways use them for bhajees, anyhow
It's really nice to see this popular side dish recipe
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alarmist10,
it's not immediately apparent but i think your recipe turning up here might just be key factor in my oil trials.
at the moment i limiting to simple & basic tests. trouble is at some point i need to try ideas out and using pukka base would be a nightmare. this simple and quick recipe can be my control so to speak. to prove or not intend making it with water down to having no base and leave ingredients out that would be wasted ie the mushroom.
well pleased and looking fwd to 1st go.
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Haldi: thanks for the positive comments. I'm pleased you enjoyed it. It's a very simple, quick and tasty side dish that can be used to accompany most curries. I don't have a choice as far as the tinned mushrooms are concerned, but, like you, I think their flavour adds something positive to the dish.....as long as you wash them liberally first to remove the salt water they come in!
JerryM: pleased to be of help! Let us know the results of your oil trials, won't you?!
al.
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i feel it's not been a good week. the oil seems very stubborn at taking on the spice. either the microwave bake till the oil is warm (3 min on bake) is not enough or the chef garam is useless.
i really can't believe the chef garam is in fact useless as a wet finger taste of the powder suggests it's not bad - just needs a tad refining "balancing". i also use the chef garam for pilau rice and that seems very good.
so i think before i can make progress i need to up the heat on the oil.
Les's recent post "Chinese Scented Oil" (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8397.msg74210#msg74210 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8397.msg74210#msg74210)) is a real savior. going to follow the principle next week and sort of repeat this weeks efforts.
this week i've had 3 samples on the go:
1) oil, chef garam, lime juice - just left all week except for daily shake
2) oil, chef garam x 5 - left all week except for daily shake
3) oil, chef garam x1 - heated each day and 4 off lots of garam added in total.
observation No 3 (not confident and need to repeat but with higher oil temp)
"increasing" the amount of spice in the oil makes a difference (visible even in the colour of the oil). the range is short ie adding lots more spice does not mean lots more flavour.
contrary to what i've experienced in the past the "carryforward" of the oil did not seem to make any difference to just adding more at the start.
next week: going to heat 1 off garam sample as per the Chinese method. also going to switch to using individual spice.
i'm also curious about citric acid. the lime juice did affect the taste but the "lime" taint made assessment too difficult. citric acid is something i've seen a lot in stores but still not worked out what it's used for.
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have had good week and essentially feel at rest on this topic although i still have much to do.
i would normally do as much research before starting out. on this topic i've allowed myself to blinker off in any direction that seemed useful.
by mid week i felt road end. i've tried everything i can think of to get taste into oil. consequently decided to swot up and see if my conclusions matched with www. they do.
in a nut shell only essential oils are dissolvable in oil and they take weeks to fully dissolve. from what i've seen heat does not play a part otherthan to release the essential oil in the spice. crossed my mind to even buy a few of these oils in bottles but just can't see BIR doing this.
i'm going to switch to water to assess the individual spices. any thoughts on anything missing and worth trying appreciated:
bay, green cardamom, black cardamom, anis, fennel, aniseed, cinnamon, casia, black pepper, cumin
overview of this weeks tribulations:
have used Les's idea. used my new zaal omelet pan (it tips up so ideal for heating small amounts). have stuck thermometer in the oil and tried out various whole spice and various temp.
the citric acid did nothing (parked). shop manager said to use in naan for lift (not rise) and have done so but did not see a difference - need to try adding a tad more. for those who know sherbet - citric acid is along those lines - gives a real zing on the tongue.
observation 4
spices burn at around 120C. my thermometer limit was 100C. they burn quickly and in oil impossible to control without (as we know quenching).
observation 5
unless the essential oils have been released the taste in oil is poor. weeks are needed to get strength.
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Hi Jerry
As this experiment doesn't seem to be working for you, Does this mean that Vong's method of spiced oil doesn't work? :o
Les
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Les,
for sure the experiment has not gone the way i was hoping. i don't know if Vong's method works or not (i think it will for his use as i think water must be present).
i'm sort of keeping myself restrained so to speak (within a fix envelope). i don't want to make spiced oil. i reclaim the oil from the base just before blending (simply pour it off). although the oil tastes pretty good it's not as good as my local TA,
in a nutshell i want to make my reclaimed oil as good but still making it as part of the base.
i've had observation in the past that by recycling the reclaimed oil into the next base the strength improves. at the time i had other gaps and parked it. now i need to return and bottom it.
one thing i've now cottoned onto is this need to cook the whole spice to released the oils. currently in using the tgad2007 approach of oven roasting i use 60C for ~8hrs. i now realise this is too low and needs to be at least 80C and possible 100C (but no higher).
in comparing the tgad2007 chef garam with the zaal and knowing now of the ifindforu jalpur i felt none are quite right in terms of composition. when i make pilau rice i add some of the chef garam to the water and it infuses very quickly (15mins simmer) and gives good strength - hence i intend to use water to try and improve the chef garam taking the best from tgad, zaal & jalpur. the jalpur might even be the finished item - i don't know and need to confirm either way.
i then intend to up the amount of oil i use for base so that i have leftover that can be frozen and recycled into the next base. i currently use ~500ml per 800g onion (9 portions) and try to reclaim over 400ml. i'm thinking of upping the oil to say 1L aiming to reclaim 900 of which 500ml to freeze and 400ml for dish frying.
hope this all makes sense. it's not easy for me to explain as i've not really got a good handle on what to do only what the finish point is.
for info the reason for the oil importance is that i've looked at all my possible gaps and feel this could have the biggest impact from continually comparing my efforts and those from my fav top notch BIR's.
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Makes perfect sense Jerry, If nothing else at least you are persistant ;D
Hope you get to where your going.
Les
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have tried "akhni" method on individual spice.
then tried to apply ranking based on strength and flavour (not easy - some spice being harder than others to judge).
having picked up in the BE pdf on "bhaji base" have adapted the alarmist10 bhaji idea further in order to make it simply to test out the findings in terms of "chef garam". so going to put in a pan chopped onion, "test chef garam", oil, water to cover - simmer till dry.
the "test chef garam" is likely to start out with 1 off whole spice and then gradually add in using the identified ranking. once happy i'll make a roast version "tgad" and try it out for real.
the only dark cloud is the colour which is disappointing "show stopper". all of the whole spice produce a dark colour. they are a long way from layne's gold.
a comment i picked up in the BE pdf, "large karai type vessel full of oil" sort of also raises same question.
for the 1st time i think there may be 2 parts to the end point that i'm after. i am in no doubt that the chef garam needs to be right and i'm happy feeling i'm on the right track. this looks like it won't sort the oil question though. i've wrestled in the past with red, yellow and dark oil - which is right.
it really does come back to the original question which has not been answered - if BIR's have big vessels full of "spice" oil - what colour is it. if this is the case why does my local TA not have same and takes from the top of the base to start each dish. how do they then make sure they never run out of spiced oil.
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ranking for info:
Rating Spice
1 Black Cumin
2 Asian Bay
3 Jalpur
4 Cardamom green
5 Anis
6 Cinnamon
7 Aniseed
8 Cardamom black
9 Panch puran
10 my tgad/Zaal mix
11 Fennel
12 Casia
for info clove is missing and not sure to add. it's quite predominant in jalpur more than black cardamom
for info pic of akhni method (80 to 90 C for 5 mins) ps 90C produces significantly better result
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/8dccb3af9cf653d2f43888e49a109b54.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#8dccb3af9cf653d2f43888e49a109b54.jpg)
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have split the ranked list into 3 categories:
1) - top 4 excluding jalpur
2) - the jalpur
3) - the rest
used the "BE bhajis base" (essentially bhuna method) to taste test the 3 off categories. 1 & 2 tasted very good, no changes needed. Category 3 tasted poor - it had a dryness taste coming through which needs the particular spice identifying before deciding further. initial view would be to ditch the particular spice it's that severe.
the "test chef garam" composition so far being equal proportions Black Cumin, Asian Bay, Jalpur, Cardamom green.
BE bhaji base recipe for info:
chopped onion 100g
veg oil 15ml
water 100g
test whole spice (typ 1/4 tsp per ground spice)
method - essentially bhuna ie frequent stirring until water gone and 1st whiff of spice burn.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/e28ca035d69f113bb8b32aec3a1dd957.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#e28ca035d69f113bb8b32aec3a1dd957.jpg)
L to R - Category 1 , 2 & 3
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/abe16ef504cfa37184176112d5608e6c.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#abe16ef504cfa37184176112d5608e6c.jpg)
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Jerry i don't know if this will help you.
when i had my evening on Monday at the bir take away i asked about the seasoned oil how he makes it.
i was told it was made by cooking the spices that was to go into the base gravy, then spooned off. i asked just to taste the oil and dipped a chip into it, the main flavor i could not put my finger on. then as he was cooking bang there it was really well cooked garlic.
he only added the seasoned oil to the pan just before he put it in the foil tray.
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I admire your tenacity and stamina in trying to achieve your goal, Jerry. I know, for sure, I couldn't devote this level of attention, but I'm really looking forward to your final findings. More power to your elbow (and those of the other contributors!).
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h4ppy-chris,
fascinating. can i just be sure on what he said. he makes seasoned oil and removes the spices presumably whole by "spooning them off". the seasoned oil was then a late addition at dish frying.
it's particularly interesting as i've just finished reading that BE pdf (need to post - talks about making tarka oil). i've also moved on a tad and made base using the new chef masala. only trouble was that i messed up on the amount of oil and ended up with only 50ml (i've been trying to get a norm so i can weigh oil instead of measure by volume - i just got the maths wrong way round).
anyhow these 2 things got me thinking of trying to make seasoned oil. i just still can't answer the question in my head - what happens when the oil on top of the base runs short in BIR. there must be a fallback. it's no good just switching to a new pot of base as it just pushes the shortage further down the line and JIT (just in time) complexity is 1 thing BIR's certainly don't adopt.
i see the "trying to make" being like BE suggests ie a tarka of say oil, tom puree and chef garam. the method being to gentle raise the temp of the oil with all the ingredients added. garlic & perhaps ginger would fit the bill too.
will post update at weekend when more time - euro's taking priority
Naga - many thanks appreciated. i do love my curry and remain devoted to both TA and Restaurant meals. making it yourself to that standard adds a whole new meaning to it all - you can effectively taylor recipes to exactly how you like then with total consistency. the effort is well worth it.
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Hi Jerry,
I really don't want to dampen your enthusiasm mate because I love reading about your experimental adventures but why are you dedicating so much time to this particular ingredient?
I've come to the conclusion that seasoned or flavoured oil really only comes into it's own when used as a dressing or used to fry something very absorbant such bread or even tofu?
I really don't think that it has a place in BIR as an individual ingredient but is more a byproduct of another process. I know Julian from c2g uses seasoned oil for his base gravy (Bhaji oil) and I know Haldi believes it to be important because he has seen it first hand but I have never seen anywhere using seasoned oil to start off a dish and we have many open kitchen TA's around these parts.
I often, as I have stated many many times, use seasoned oil from my last dish whereby I have cooked the curry in way too much oil, with the sole intention of spooning off the excess to use on my next curry but to be honest, there is only a slight improvement on using fresh.
The best use of this oil I have found, is to use it as a drizzle over bhajis, seekhs or samosas served on a bed of salad.
Sorry to sound so negative Jerry, especially as it is some of your research, experiments and observations, that really inspire and motivate me but I fear that this could be the one nut that will prove to be the hardest one to crack for you.
All the very best,
Ray :)
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"fascinating. can i just be sure on what he said. he makes seasoned oil and removes the spices presumably whole by "spooning them off". the seasoned oil was then a late addition at dish frying."
he cooks the spices in the oil then spoons the oil off. the seasoned oil was added at the very end just drizzled on the top then poured in to the foil tray. the seasoned oil on its own was not a good taste.
he used vegetable ghee at the start of all the curry's.
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One thing I discovered last night: I was cooking my usual korai style curry as I lke some peppers and onions and a few bits of tomato in my curries, usually. I took my normal approach of slowly "sweating" the chopped onions and green peppers in some oil for about 20 minutes.
Then I carefully drained the oil from this pan and used it to start the curry cooking proper. The cooked peppers and onions get added back to the curry later.
As usual I wasn't 100% happy with my curry. It was so BIR in some ways but it had another flavour I couldn't quite identify. Now I believe that the act of sweating the onions and particularly the green peppers imparted a very green peppery flavour into the oil I then used to finish the curry. The flavour is quite strong and just isn't BIR. My wife enjoyed the curry very much but next time I'll discard the oil I use to cook the peppers and onions. So I think I've been accidently producing a spiced oil (or pepper/onion oil) that just doesn't complement the curry as a whole.
Hopefully this will be some progress for me.
Cheers,
Paul
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Razor,
i'm trying to close my gap and "seasoned" oil seemed a possible contender.
i'd be well pleased if any other ideas/possibilities are generated as i can't really put my finger on what the gap is - it's quite small. i do know what it isn't - base, equipment, technique, mix powder, prep items, pastes.
for a good while i've put it down to recipe refinement - some recipes i get 100% spot others not quite best BIR. the spot on dishes tend to be the "cream" dishes.
have racked the grey cells - i can only think of a few remaining possibilities: herbs in base, the oil, citric acid or recipe.
the idea of the oil gap comes from the sample of BIR base that i was given. at the time i did not think there was much oil in the sample but when i froze it into ice cubes the taste on the surface was of oil and differed significantly from the base itself and the oil that i've ever been able to reclaim. the difference purely being strength and zing.
the exercise on the chef garam will either help or not. even if it turns out to be no good then i'd still be happy as it's closed down another door or possibility on where the gap lies.
the exercise is well worth doing on a learning basis - i feel i now have a much better understanding of the spice flavours and feel this can only be good going forward.
i really do agree on the hardness of the nut to crack. i still believe we have 1 piece of the jigsaw missing. it's not a big part but i feel important enough to adopt trial and error albeit much in hope as you say.
h4ppy-chris,
thanks for clarification. i'm well pleased you mentioned that the taste was not good on it's own. i've tried making a batch and came up with the same conclusion. it's certainly not what i'm searching for. i will try it out in a test curry to be sure though.
the frying in veg ghee is something i've tried and does not work for me (worse than plain oil). i do add v.ghee to the base so the reclaimed oil does have a proportion in it. i can only think that i'm frying too hot for ghee on it's own (or more accurately the pan surfaces).
recipe for info:
oil 50 ml
tom puree 2.5ml
test chef garam 2.5ml
garlic puree 2.5ml
ginger puree 5ml
nb i made initially without the ginger and found the ginger made a significant difference (improvement) to the taste
et al,
will do full update on progress asap
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PaulP,
i prep sliced onion and pepper by small batch frying separately in wok - might be worth a try.
for onion: heat wok on hottest hob (eg 3kw) add 1 tbsp reclaimed oil, swirl around wok, when starts to smoke chuck in 2 medium onion sliced, stir fry till onion breaks up (~5 mins). no need to add more oil if doing a 2nd batch. for slice pepper do pretty much same except only a very short fry till start soften (hardly any at all ~1 min). don't add any more oil if already added to the wok for the onions. an option i've grown to like from dipuraja and use now and then is to add between 1 tsp and 1 tbsp of methi leaf to the onion at start of stir fry. optional to add pinch salt to the onions.
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the dryness taste was in the panch puran and have consequently left it out. of the panch puran ingredients (fennel, mustard, cumin fenugreek, onion) i think it's the mustard seed but not sure. intend to buy some individual onion seed to perhaps add in at later stage.
the fenugreek seed (methi) was very interesting. again intend to buy some individual. i liked the smell from it and feel it's a characteristic that should go into base even though i've never used the seed or leaf in base before. it may even be the leaf to go into base. any thoughts appreciated.
the made rev1 test chef masala:
black cumin 15%
asian bay 15%
jalpur 5% (see note)
green cardamom 15%
star anis 10%
cinnamom 5%
aniseed 10%
black cardamom 10%
fennel 2.5%
casia 2.5%
i equated the % to ml which produced 85 ml of finished roasted powder. the jalpur was reduced at the point of adding to the remaining ground roasted whole spice. the initial proportion was intended to be 15%. the roasted spice produced just over 6 tbsp (85ml) and gut feeling was that the jalpur was too strong to add as 15ml so was reduced to 5ml. this seemed to work. if anyone intends to make and has no jalpur then leave out until the rest are proven.
pic attached shows the roasted rev1 chef masala with tgad/zaal combined at top left and the jalpur top right.
the rev1 chef masala tastes very different to the others. i like it and fits exactly what i was imagining.
i've used it to knock up a 400g onion batch of base (based on CA's CR0 development base). unfortunately the amount of oil added and consequently reclaimed got messed up ending up with only 50ml. the pic shows it on the right and the attempt at BE tarka oil on the left. the reclaimed oil tastes very good and well pleased. the strength is not yet there and am now sure it needs to be recycled through a few bases which i intend to do.
i've increased the chef masala from 5ml per 800g onion to 10ml. i'm also intending to use 20ml as i intend to x2 the oil, half being to freeze and recycle into the next base.
the whole spice was roasted at 100C for 8 hrs c/w 60C in the past.
aiming to cook with it today.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/37e918d7d14fe0bfd67cbba73e22e0d4.bmp) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#37e918d7d14fe0bfd67cbba73e22e0d4.bmp)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/d52fef5c39cf4f726449a4f5c0e9e3a9.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#d52fef5c39cf4f726449a4f5c0e9e3a9.jpg)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/7b28023db39ee9479b905335a18f6b3e.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#7b28023db39ee9479b905335a18f6b3e.jpg)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/e05933c6399a45da4e66bb5b4cd0a104.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#e05933c6399a45da4e66bb5b4cd0a104.jpg)
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cooked with the basic onion base last night: 1 off jaipuri rec oil, 1 off jaipuri BE inspired Tarka manufactured oil, 1 off butter chicken plain oil.
the tarka oil dish was not good (as per the oil taste). it's not something i intend following up but for those interested the only glimmer was a tad taste of cardboard which was raised in George's original post which got me onto this particular topic.
the rec oil dish was good enough (the basic base, no bunjarra) to green light making a full batch of base to properly try the new chef garam out.
in short i am sorted on this. only time will tell if i can get the right strength by recycling 50% of the oil forwards into the next base.
one final comment - i don't have a clue how close this chef garam is to real BIR. i only know the end point and what i've made previously. just tasting the oil it sits pretty close to what i imagine it to be. time will tell.
ps for ifindforu. i made a huge plateful of your tikka for the football. without any prompts all commented on how good it was. a big smile would not be out of order.
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i've got a full batch of base on the go (800g onion). i've used 1L of oil and reclaimed 450ml for cooking and 400ml which i've frozen for the next base.
the immediate concern that it would darken the oil (like in the rajver) has not happened - thankfully.
although the oil does taste decent it's just not strong enough. i used 20ml of the chef garam which with hindsight is clearly not enough.
going forward on the next base intend to x2 ie 40ml.
gut feeling is that the "better" chef spice has had knock on to the taste of the base. will know better tomorrow but feel it's improved the taste.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/6f6c2e2482303dd5fcfd550701a9963b.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#6f6c2e2482303dd5fcfd550701a9963b.jpg)
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I like the way you have a go at this, very thorough and "scientific", so to say. Reminds of the way I work in certain areas (just not food yet).
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StoneCut,
i think this site has made me worse - through realising how good a curry you can produce at home but at the same time seeing conflicting information.
also the more i've got into it the more the "why" seems to have become important which pushes you more towards a scientific approach.
update.
must point out this oil business really is fine tuning. it's perhaps 0.5% at most.
i do feel the balance of the base is better - no harshness. the small amount of oil that surfaced during stage 2 cooking (after blending) still tasted understrength. am pretty sure the amount of chef garam needs to go up on next base to say 40ml per 800g onion. of course 40% of the starting oil will be already spiced but would rather get the taste stronger than weaker.
of note i've now tasted the frozen oil - wet finger on the top. it surprisingly taste pretty good and clearly going in the right direction.
aiming to cook tomorrow.
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I think your on the right track JerryM , I've been doing similar with whole spices in a spice ball and this has brought me some lovely savoury flavours to the base.
I have found Star Anise and the large Asian Bay leaves to make a noticeable difference in the base gravy but the trick is getting the amount right :-\ I did try the spice ball some time ago but couldn't really taste much difference so didn't bother again until a couple of months ago and upped the whole spices in the base and this time I over did the green cardamom :o so to balance it out a bit I added some extra star anise and wow ! what a flavour, honestly I licked the plate !It was that savoury taste without being over spiced that you get in a good BIR curry. I have since bought a larger spice ball and look forward to making my next base, this time less cardamom and more star anise :)
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emin-j,
the larger spice ball is something i'd not considered. my heart stills says that adding the whole spice "whole" to the base produces the best taste ie spice ball. my brain has had to accept that the tgad2007 roasting method is equivalent but with the advantage that better consistency and greater depth of flavour can be delivered.
for info i used 4 green cardamom, 4 asian bay and 1 off anis star initially and then added in between 20 and 90 mm of cinnamon. i used the same amount for between 800g and 1300g onion. the cinnamon was less of an issue as i get this through the bunjarra.
i also liked the roasting method down to the idea of better releasing the essential oils. i don't know for sure if this really is the case.
what does surprise me on this 1st base using the test mix is that i've x2 on the whole spice but the greater strength is in the base c/w the oil. i also know from the trials that simply adding more does not proportionally increase the strength of the oil. i'm now convinced that the oil needs to be cycled forward into the next base (as planned). increasing the whole spice can as you point out throw the balance of the base itself out.
best wishes,
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update,
i cooked a sort of sequential buffet last night: chicken biryani with plain curry sauce, CtM (ifindforu pre cooked chicken), Roshney, Butter Chicken.
there were no shouts of "fantastic oil really made a difference". in fact there were no comments at all. this along with smelling the new oil in cooking the biryani rice confirmed i was happy.
the only negatives for me were that i made plain chicken for the biryani but missed the tikka taste in the CTM and Roshney. also could get the individual garlic taste in the roshney but not across the sauce which i've managed in the past - i just need to keep trying.
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Hi JerryM,
Made the Zaal Base today (3kg onion etc) but rather than boil the whole spices in water I loaded my 3'' diameter spice ball with 4 large asian bay (broken in half) 10 green cardamom,3 2" pieces of cinnamon,and 1 2" piece of cassia bark ,I also added a small piece of coconut block during the final simmer.
This evenings curry's were very nice with the coconut block just coming through and a hint of the whole spices in the background,I think in the next base I will halve the amount of coconut block and increase the star anise as I have found that star anise in the right amount gives a very savoury moorish flavour to a curry.
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emin-j,
can see that working well.
for info i use coconut block in 1 of the 3 bases i use. i add it right at the start and use 25g per 800g onion.
that savoury moorish is same for me - a key requirement to aim for. it with balance and depth of spice is probably what i call "threshold".
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I'm not knocking coconut in bases as I have never tried it, but as an observation are you not restricted to the types of dishes you can make with coconut in the base?
I mean, Madras, Vindaloo, Garlic Chili Chicken etc do not traditionally have coconut in them. Does this not affect the taste of these dishes?
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I'm not knocking coconut in bases as I have never tried it, but as an observation are you not restricted to the types of dishes you can make with coconut in the base?
I mean, Madras, Vindaloo, Garlic Chili Chicken etc do not traditionally have coconut in them. Does this not affect the taste of these dishes?
Hi 976bar, yes you're right it does affect the flavour of any final dish,for me I'm still in the 'experimental' stage with base gravies but have found the Zaal my favorite to date.Luckily my family all like coconut but not sure if I will add it to the base next time but for me whole spices are a definite. ;)
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in short No.
the coconut is like all the base ingredients - you should not be able to detect it's there but you can tell when it's missing. the block and milk/cream are have a very different effect too.
the different bases do produce different curry but across the full range. i actually think it's sort of the opposite the "with" coconut produce best hot fry ie madras as there is that extra level of flavour.
adding it at dish frying is a Yes though - makes a huge difference.
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happy days - been a few months since i made base but now ready to continue the "oil" search.
going to make parker21's rajver - a base really i like but my gut feeling is that it could be better if the oil could be improved (i think the branded garam makes the oil dark and messes up the otherwise high quality ingredients).
in short going to use the new chef garam and also my frozen reclaimed oil from the last base.
going to give curry2go's recent recipes ago too along with his onion sauce. exciting times and fingers crossed 4 stronger tasting yellow oil coming out on the reclaim.
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Look forward to the experiments and hearing the results Jerry. Admire your determination to crack this one, come what may ;)
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curryhell,
best wishes sir.
et al,
got the rajver made. the base itself tastes as good as it always does.
on the reclaimed oil
the original recipe produced a dark brown oil which never tasted very good (saffron and mytake being much better).
this time i left out the paprika thinking it would help keep the oil towards yellow. did not work - a sort of orange colour turned out. i know the colour's not the be all and in the past i've thought red is best. so putting the colour to one side the taste is much stronger than the cycle 1 oil (ie the oil reclaimed from base 1.
for this base 2, i added 1 litre fresh oil and 470ml of the cycle 1 yellow oil. i've frozen 900ml for use in base no 3.
i've recycled oil briefly in the past on an adhoc basis and thought 3 off cycles needed to gain maximum taste so this oil is still not fully developed. ie need to recycle into another base (base 3).
conclusions:
1) strength of the oil has increased from cycle 1
2) the taste is not as "vibrant" as base 1
3) the colour is not important
will need to cook before deciding further. my gut feeling is that the chef garam is spot on. i now think the base spicing is more important than i'd thought in terms of getting the best oil.
rajver
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/2f2b92663b71a302a584e31c5273341a.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#2f2b92663b71a302a584e31c5273341a.jpg)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/cf4c32aa143c61788a0f49ee99854158.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#cf4c32aa143c61788a0f49ee99854158.jpg)
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i now think the base spicing is more important than i'd thought in terms of getting the best oil.
That's an awful lot of oil there to use up Jerry ;D You'll just have to increase your curry intake to clear it all ::) Certainly agree with your final comment. IMHO i think spicing of the base can turn a good gravy into that which delivers that aroma we all love which also subtly comes through in the taste. I have a couple of ideas around whole spices, stock etc which i'll be following up during the winter months. Any breakthroughs and i'll report back for sure.
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curryhell,
i think i might have done too much oil this time - even for me - the stove eats it so my finished curries contain very little of it. makes you think why all the fuss about oil.
the final comment has sort of dawned on me since tasting this last batch of oil. CA said it sometime ago (the gap lay in the base) and it's something i've not been able to put out of my mind. although i've tasted real BIR base that produces top notch curry there was very little oil but what there was being really quite special - hence the interest in oil. obviously now not in the whole spice but what ingredients/spice make up the rest of the oil taste. for info i see no difference in the base taste "characteristics" itself.
i'm very happy with the chef garam and see no need for further improvement other than possibly to increase the amount of jalpur. i've also just this week tried upping the mix powder from the very low 0.5 tsp to 1 tsp (where i started out) and can now see this working for some dishes.
my main focus now is on the base spicing/ingredients in order to achieve best. as you say - going to take a few months for sure. best wishes
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You certainly have a lot of it there Jerry. Whilst i think it has a part to play, i don't think it's a major player like some do. But it could be one of the many "layers" that make up the BIR flavour and smell. The base is important and maybe this is where the oil comes in to play and i believe the spicing of the base and the resultant oil is critical. However, a good base in the hands of someone with poor technique will at best product an average home made curry. I think it's all about balance. Then, just to complicate things, ones own expectations come into play. We all have different ideas on what makes a good madras, vindaloo etc. I don't think we'll ever agree but at least we will explore the key areas which may enable most of us to achieve what we consider to be a BIR curries cooked at home. Only time will tell. Good luck with the base experiments.
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curryhell,
very well put.
it is very fine tuning for sure.
if of help these are the ingredients which were used in base 2 (rajver) but not used in base 1 (mytake):
green pepper, tom puree, cumin, tinned toms, coconut milk
none of these would i have expected to have had such a dramatic downturn on the taste of the oil.
going forward i intend to make ifindforu's base (1/2 batch, the other base in my top 3) using fresh oil only (i've not reclaimed oil from it yet and need to see how it tastes). from this i should be able to compare all the various ingredient combinations to hopefully shed light on why this backward step.
at least i know recycling the oil does increase the strength which was my original objective.
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Interesting results Jerry. Particularly since the majority of gravies use green pepper, tomato paste or pureed tinned tomatoes or both. As for cumin (not one of my favourite spices particlarly if i can taste it) and coconut, I'm very hesitant to use either given my results so far without them. I am loath to try any more bases and intend to stick with my two most popular and do some work with them first and see what turns up. I eventually do want to try IFFU's base and also the little india base. I don't see any point in wandering from base to base in search of the panacea of gravies. All have been tried and received fairly good reports. But there's been no one report that say "this is the gravy that will deliver the BIR taste and smell". I believe the gravy is simply a carrier. It's what you add to the carrier as well as how you cook the final dish with it that will deliver the goods. Maybe it's about that extra layer or two of flavour that gets the desired result. Just my own opionion and i'm sure many will disagree.
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the green pepper, tin toms (seeds) and cumin are the main contenders for me. i do think as you say the building of layers of flavour is the key to it all. i'm 100% sure i can't add any more flavour upstream of the base even with recipe refinement (unless there is an ingredient i don't use that's important but i doubt very much as some dishes are spot on but it could be as some dishes are not as good as they should be - i'm thinking things that are made ie mushroom bhaji as example).
i now realise i need to vary the amount of mix powder to optimise the amount for each specific dish - the small amount ie 0.5 tsp works for some dishes but not for all.
the oil and base really is fine tuning.
agree very much with what you say. the only ps being make sure you do try coconut at some point - it does work both in block and cream in base. not essential but nice for a change.
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JerryM,
talking about coconut reminds me that I should have you try my recipe for chicken tikka/shashlik marrinade.
I'll post it tonight in the tikka section. I know you like your tikka and it has coconut in it!, so I want you to try mate and see where you rate it.
Lee
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parabolic,
will look out for it - i do like coconut and always like to keep the blinkers off to try something new.
i do like my tikka and can't see me moving from ifindforu's version (the f.coriander, garden mint and green chilli sauce are a trilogy for me equal to garlic, chilli, ginger) - everyone who i've made it for can't believe how good it is. the lasan is my 2nd fav and not far behind.
cooking it on a bbq albeit gas makes a difference too.
links
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4968.msg48047#msg48047 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4968.msg48047#msg48047)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4182.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4182.0)
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on the reclaimed oil - oil cycle No 3
for this base No 3, i added 150 ml fresh oil and 900 ml frozen from cycle 2.
the oil tastes surprisingly good given it had taken a dip from the last base.
the strength is pretty good too. i reclaimed 950 ml and froze 500ml for base No 4 leaving 450 ml for cooking.
the colour has remained dark which i'm beginning to think is down to the jalpur in the chef garam and the fact that i've upped the amount i've historically used (x4 - was 5 ml per 800g onion/9 portions which has increased to 20 ml)
i've given up on trying to work out how to identify what in the rajver was duffing the oil taste. i don't feel the effort will be worth what is in effect very little improvement being sought - ie in short can live with as is.
i feel i'm now ready to try the last 2 off thoughts on improving the oil:
1) citric acid
2) herb - which one is the question though. tarragon caught my eye but never seen it in Asian store. i've previously tried ajowan (ifindforu base) which led me to fennel. i'm thinking a more soft herb like oregano, marjoram or parsley. they all seem to be kept in the Asian stores in large amounts
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/a5de3f44c697e701aebc9197e3453ec4.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#a5de3f44c697e701aebc9197e3453ec4.jpg)
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i've tried 5ml of citric acid in base made today (800g onion/9 portions or ~3.5L) adding it at the start with the rest of the ingredients.
the 5ml amount being a pure guess. you can taste the effect more in the base than in the oil. i can't really describe the effect other than its sort of same as using lemon dressing in mains.
i'll try it out this week. i might need to up the amount to say 10 ml on next base and that will be it for this wacky idea if there's no improvement.
for sure it does not seem to have produced the affect "zing" in the oil that i was looking for.
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Interesting Idea, JerryM ! Did you use citric acid dilluted in water or the pure powder/granulate ? Note that citric acid will only provide acidity, it has only a very faint taste of lemon/citrus if that's what you're after.
As I'm still perfecting making my own cola I can tell you how much citric acid there is in generic colas (if they don't use phosphoric acid) - there is approx. 1.4 ml of citric acid granulate in 1 L of cola to produce a noticeable "tang".
So, assuming you come up with round about 7 L base, I would suggest approx. 10 ml, exactly what you put in. If that didn't produce the result you wanted then more likely won't, either.
How about vinegar ?! ;)
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StoneCut,
many thanks - appreciate your thoughts.
i've come to the same conclusion albeit reluctantly as i can't think what else now to try (the oil from the TA that gave me a sample still tastes better than mine - the difference being a zing of some form).
i used the white crystals. in most dishes i make i can tell when i've not added lemon dressing - that zing's missing. i think i just got the same effect by a different route as for this weeks cooking i could not bring myself to add lemon dressing - that taste already being in the base.
you're right - i don't need to try more - the 5 ml was just right - down to luck.
ps of the few questions the chef answered one was do you use vinegar - the answer was a definite No - not in anything. he said others do but produces inferior result.
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could it be Tamarind? Jerry
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Hing?
Black salt?
Anardana powder?
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On the subject of oil in BIR's I noticed my local t/a use Pride Rapeseed oil in 20 ltr drums.
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Noticed 25ltr drums of it at my local, that too was rapseed oil. i dont believe that they add anything to it in my opinion, how far can you go trying to use flavoured oils? Ihey just use the oil from the drum and thats it.
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many thanks all - really do appreciate ideas on this. it's one thing that is bugging me.
the chef does love using tamarind. i am pretty sure he only uses it in "sauces" that he makes. my gut feeling is that it would not be used in base. however i will try mixing a little in some of my oil and heating it up to see what happens.
it's not hing - i've tried hing before and is big no no for my taste buds.
black salt i use in lasan tikka. it certainly has a zing and is a contender. i will try it out.
i've used anardana (pomegranate) in parker21 and issiemc's kashmiri masala for making bhajis mintsauce. it's not it.
having pondered this more i realise that i may have been wrong in thinking the "zing" was in the oil. how i came upon the observation was to freeze ice cubes of the sample base i was given. when you looked at the base before freezing there was no suggestion of any oil. when it froze it was clear that the small amount had risen to the surface and a finger taste of the surface was "spiced" oil but with this "zing". the zing was not in the base before freezing - hence the assumption it was in the oil.
given this i've frozen the current oil and base just to make sure i'm comparing like with like (have given it a stir after taking the pic to mix the oil in)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/4d341f1d9a08112aefeb59107bab483d.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#4d341f1d9a08112aefeb59107bab483d.jpg)
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Good work JerryM,interesting thread 8)
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Hi jerry, ive tried tamarind in base sauce and it's not nice, It's rather sour and does ruin the dish. From past experiance you cant beat a good plain veg oil without anything added to it.
steve.
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Good work Jerry. At least some members are working away for the common good and avoiding the debacles that have broken out elsewhere :( If only some people would put as much effort into cooking as they do questionning, disagreeing, sniping, spitting hairs after they've already been split several times, theorising and harking back to a byegone era, we may actually make some progress on this forum. But i don't suppose that is going to happen, is it ::)
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Curry leaves?
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ive been meditating (literally lol) the secret of what makes BIR oil unique, compared to a home cooked oil.
i think we can agree now that there's no secret ingredient that is slipped in during the cooking process, a supressed spice.
if you look at oil as a sponge that likes to grab aroma's, as you enter a restaurant it is alive with aroma's that are being spewed into the air, spice's, ingredients being roasted, those lovely smokey flavours, a diverse range of spicey ecstacy :) constantly coming into contact with this oily sponge, quickly accumulating many complex smells and tastes, exciting & intriguing to the palate.
the smell of a BIR, especially when your next to the kitchen is heaven to the nose. I dont think a small home kitchen has the intensity, in smell (and heat), to infuse the oil with that BIR kitchen smell.
its the smell of the BIR kitchen itself that breathes into the oil.
what do you think?
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I make my own curries mostly with good results, however when I walked past my local takeaway of choice last night, the aromas were absolutely heavenly and I can honestly say my kitchen / curries have never come close to a smell like that :'(
Maybe it's a combination of all the curries cooked, the fryer, the tandoor who knows but there within that smell lies the holy grail ;)
Even the oil on the brown paper bhaji bags have the aroma :-\
It's like chasing the end of a rainbow
W
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Even the oil on the brown paper bhaji bags have the aroma :-\
Well that's a pretty big clue then. The oil can only come from the oil that the bhajis are cooked in, and the bhajis themselves and whatever else they deep fry.
Haldi always said the only secret is in the oil.
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Haldi always said the only secret is in the oil.
And i think i'm inclined to believe the same, it makes so much sense, the cost savings to the industry by reusing the oil, the various spices being infused from frying lots of different starters etc.
If that is truly the secret, then everybodys base recipe posted on here would have a strong chance of being the real deal as opposed to having lots of differing opinions from us.
Wonder if anybody can acquire some left over fryer oil (yeuch!, i hear people say) but makes perfect sense to me ;)
W
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thanks all - i'm in no rush on this and don't expect a quick result.
i'd go along with stevejett66 on No tamarind in the base - i love tamarind and am pretty sure it was not in the TA sample.
fried i'm not fan of curry leaves and can see the idea but the more i think about it's not a herb.
i tried black salt in a little spiced oil heated in the microwave and felt it has potential - i will use in the next base.
i've tried bhajis oil and whilst i don't dispute it use or effect it does not give a "zing".
i've tasted the frozen oil/base and it's defo flat - this oil uses my reworked chef garam mix and has been recycled through something like 5 off bases. the taste is good but misses that zing.
from DPN ideas one thing that does come to mind is that i've seen the TA chef pour off oil from cooked dishes (only some types). i know this has been reported several times - in fact Secret Santa and CurryQueen being the 2 most prominent in my mind.
i think this would have a very good chance of delivery the effect i'm after. i would have to take my blinkers off to adapt as i feel that most best curries have very little surface oil. the obvious perceived downside raised previously being that of chilli but that could well be offset in the base by reducing the new chilli being added.
if the black salt does not work then i either need to buy an oil essence or collect dish oil.
many thanks - some real good steers - well pleased
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/10a6fa217cfaa60baae92687175dda17.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#10a6fa217cfaa60baae92687175dda17.jpg)
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I just mentioned it because most of the decent Parisian Indian restaurants are Tamil and they use fresh curry leaves pretty heavily. Vindaloo here doesn't taste remotely like in the U.K..There is a certain citrusy 'zing' though. Good luck with your search.
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fried,
the word fresh "herb" is another of those areas that i'd like to tryout. the example for me being in buying fresh coriander - there are always a good few "herbs" along side and i always tend to taste the methi and feel it tastes far better than the dried (i've only recently got to like the dried). chewytikka's hari is another example of something that has taken me by surprise and remains at the back of my mind for cooking dishes in general.
i will need to check if i can get fresh curry leaf - the dried taste quite sour.
i do have dried lime leaves which i use in thai green curry - they may be a sticking plaster - the taste difference i'm after is like you describe.
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Dried curry leaves always tastes musty to me and I can remember buying a box year's ago and never finding a reason to use them. The fresh ones are completely different. I haven't used them yet, only when I've eaten in a restaurant but I think I'll try some experiments to create that 'PIR' taste.
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The most common ingredient that will give a tart flavour is, apart from tamarind, amchur (mango) powder. It's probably been mentioned but I couldn't be bothered reading back ten pages!
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Even the oil on the brown paper bhaji bags have the aroma :-\
Well they will do. Oil is an extremely good flavour carrier in fact with regards to BIR cooking, it's the main flavour carrier. Onion bhajis are made up of mixed spices. Onions + spices fried in oil saturates the oil with those spices which then gives you the smell when soaked into a paper bag.
Haldi always said the only secret is in the oil.
There is no secret. Spiced oil, reused oil, reclaimed oil simply add another layer of flavour density to the dish. It doesn't give you that missing secret ingredient as far as I'm concerned. That comes from technique (of cooking the spices) and high flame burners/fast cooking. I've not read anything here nor elsewhere that makes me think any differently.
Don't underestimate the importance of high flame burners. Commercial burners can reach much higher temperatures much more quickly than any domestic ones can. When you add any cold ingredient such as meat, tomato puree and water, ginger/garlic paste etc, it stops the cooking process by immediately lowering the temperature in the pan. You then have a time frame before the cooking continues by rising back to the necessary temperature. High flame burners will raise that temperature much faster than a domestic one can and in some instances there will be no halt in the cooking process. It's not about the highest temperature the heat will go to, but about no or very small halt in the cooking process due to the fast rising of the temperature.
There's a very simple and logically explained reason for why home cooks cannot recreate that exact BIR flavour and aroma at home - we don't operate in a commercial kitchen on commercial burners churning out dishes day in and day out to the scale a commercial BIR does.
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Secret Santa,
it's not a tart flavour that i'm searching. it's a defo zing. i'm happy for now trying out the black salt idea and to perhaps try fresh methi and curry leaf as a bit of a diversification.
just to be clear to those showing interest - this is a an icing on the cake with marginal taste improvement in the finished dish. the main improvement in the oil being down to the change in chef garam and the recycling.
spiceyokooko - top words sir
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Dalpuri,
delighted by your recommendation on black salt. i used 80% black salt (20ml black salt and 5 ml cooking salt) in my current batch of base. i'm no longer looking for that missing zing. i can't be 100% sure as it's some time since i was given the TA sample and have no side by side.
i need to point out that the 4:1 ratio is a guess and i'm not sure if it needs adjustment. for the moment i'm just happy as it is.
also this like many aspects of BIR is not a huge step.
going forward i'm still not happy that i fully understand oil (hence my interest in CA's recent why post). i am happy on the chef garam and the black salt.
at the back of my mind is why the rajver changed the oil taste so much. the differences being addition through the base of green pepper, cumin, tomato paste, tin toms and coconut milk.
pink stuff is the black salt in bottom left corner
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/19d54b6c0427c663b6145e60a2390ae7.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#19d54b6c0427c663b6145e60a2390ae7.jpg)
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Great news Jerry, Glad it helped. ;D
Maybe we should all think about using this salt as a given anyway.
It is after all, the purest salt you can get.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11543.msg89028.html#msg89028 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11543.msg89028.html#msg89028)
Frank. :)
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Looks like the stuff we use to melt snow ;)