Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on November 13, 2010, 09:20 AM
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Secret Santa and myself i think struggle on a couple of CR0 recipe dishes - these being Bhuna & Vindaloo.
the problem is that although the recipes on the site (which include pukka BIR) are very good they don't deliver the taste that i've grown up on. we can if needed put it down to a regional thing - my interest is in finding why as it could be useful in our overall pursuit of BIR.
taking the bhuna 1st. i've listed this from CA's post http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5141.msg50188#msg50188 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5141.msg50188#msg50188)
There are several recipes, in the Bhuna/Bhoona/ section of the forum, that claim to be derived directly from BIRs, including:
* Dipuraja's Chicken Tikka Bhoona
* Dipuraja's Bhoona Prawn Puri
* Panpot's Ashoka Karahi Bhuna
* Panpot's Ashoka Chicken Bhuna
* Haldi's Vegetable Bhuna
* Woks Up's Bhoona Prawn Puri
* CK's Lamb Bhuna
For instance, they all contain:
* vegetable oil
* curry base
* garlic ginger paste
* tomato paste
* onion and pepper
* spice mix
* meat and various other ingredients
* all cooked, in a similar manner, to a dryish sauce
it would be interesting to get others thought's on where the difference is. my best guess is that the difference is down to purely how the onion is dealt with. this dish originates very much from traditional indian which rely much more on caramelising than BIR.
in short i think we need to add caramelised onion perhaps in conjunction with pre cook chopped onion to produce a different slant to the existing CR0 recipes.
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Vindaloo fits into the same sort of boat for me as Bhuna.
the starting point for me is that the dishes i've been brought up on are not a Hot Madras. they are a completely separate dish in their own right.
the key differences being less tomato puree and a dark dish with a faint tint of greenish colour.
i am convinced that green chilli paste plays a crucial role in this darker version to produce the lip burn sensation and the vastness of the depth of taste in the dish. hence my recent interest in green chilli from the bottle.
i am also convinced that a "sauce" is needed to produce the depth of taste that just can't be delivered from a spice mix. the nearest i've got is the Ashoka South Indian Garlic sauce http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3908.msg35388;topicseen#msg35388 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3908.msg35388;topicseen#msg35388). i feel i still need to work at it.
again it would be interesting to hear thoughts of the members as with always the odd little basic thought may be the gem to stake a step forward.
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Jerry,
I totally get where your coming from with this thread but I would like to ask; Have you or anybody else, ever cooked these dishes for family and friends (who are really into their curries) and if so, what were their thoughts on your dish?
I think what I'm getting at is, I don't think that we are best suited to judge our own dishes.
I had a curry party a couple of weeks back, whereby I made them, Madras, Bhuna and CTM, along with a load of starters.
My sister, couldn't believe how good my CTM was, and trust me, if she said it was good, it must have been. She would rather pull her own teeth than give me any kind of compliment, the witch!
My bhuna was the star of the show, it was the one that went first, followed by the CTM, leaving just the Madras to me and my mate, fat Paul.
Now I'm not really into Bhuna, and can't say that I've ever ordered one in a restaurant but it is the only dish that my Bro in law ever eats. He actually said that it was the best Bhuna that he'd ever had and he is in his late 40's and been eating bhunas for as long as he can remember, again, some compliment!
I tasted it, and didn't think that it was anything special, and that's my point. I don't think that we are in a great position to judge our own dishes. Yes, we can easily publish our recipes on here for members to replicate at home, but unless it has been cooked by the recipe provider, it's not really a fair reflection on how the dish should taste, as I'm sure that JB can confirm with his "restaurant lessons"?
This kind of throws us back to Georges "come dine with me" idea, which is a crying shame that it never actually come to fruition. That for me, would be the real acid test. A regional take on a particular dish, cooked by someone from that region and tasted by people from that region, only then, could our dishes be truly assessed and be compared to the actually BIR version of that region!
It's a great concept Jerry, and I'm not knocking you in you pursuit of excellence, I just fear that we will never have a conclusion to this.
Ray :)
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This kind of throws us back to Georges "come dine with me" idea, which is a crying shame that it never actually come to fruition. That for me, would be the real acid test. A regional take on a particular dish, cooked by someone from that region and tasted by people from that region, only then, could our dishes be truly assessed and be compared to the actually BIR version of that region!
I just read your post here after I'd mentioned Come Dine again on another thread. Yes, it would be an 'acid test'. I'd be very surprised if all your guests are wrong and you can't make cracking good curries which ARE as good as any BIR.
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Correct George,
Let others judge our dishes, we shouldn't. Unless you are a proper smug bugger, you will always rate your own dish poorly, or at least, below par in comparision to the real deal.
Ray :)
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Now I'm not really into Bhuna, and can't say that I've ever ordered one in a restaurant but it is the only dish that my Bro in law ever eats. He actually said that it was the best Bhuna that he'd ever had and he is in his late 40's and been eating bhunas for as long as he can remember, again, some compliment!
I tasted it, and didn't think that it was anything special, and that's my point.
To me Ray that just demonstrates that you have never had a proper bhuna. When you have one there is no mistaking it. You couldn't conceivably say that it was nothing special.
Your brother in law proclaiming it as the best ever is weird then isn't it?
Is this your own recipe or is it the Kushi version?
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To me Ray that just demonstrates that you have never had a proper bhuna. When you have one there is no mistaking it. You couldn't conceivably say that it was nothing special.
You might be right or wrong. How can anyone ever say without a tasting session, ideally featuring a pucka BIR Bhuna which you say is as good as it gets, as our reference point. If some of us got together at a dinner party, we would at least be able to talk about the flavour of dishes on the table, so we know we're all talking about the same thing. Without any form of group tasting session (calibration), I fear we're destined to be going round in circles for ever. As for me, I've never had a bhuna, so I can't offer an opinion.
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Hi
Would you agree that age has a part to play in all of this I'm 32 and have been eating bir curries for about 15 years so i guess my first taste of a bhuna could be different to that of someone who started in the 70's and 80's as changing styles, ingredients and shortcuts have been introduced over the years.
I suppose what i mean is that the recipes on here are close to as good as to days bir curries but some of the older members who ate them in the 70's and 80's may have a different perception of what a bhuna should taste like to what i and others may think they should taste like. But that's what its all about different opinions makes the curry world go round.
Jamie
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SS,
I totally agree, I can't, in all honesty, say that I've ever had a proper BIR bhuna, good or bad.
As for my bro in law, it's all he's ever ate. He doesn't like hot curries, can't stand creamy ones either, so Bhuna fit's the bill, at least it does for him.
He says that mine was the best he's ever tasted, I can't agree with him, nor disagree, I've never really tasted one. I have to trust his judgment. The fact that this was the first to disappear at my curry party, suggest that one or two agreed with him. Or, the other curries that I'd done, could have been utter trash :'( When I say that it was nothing special, what I should have said was, that it doesn't stand out anymore than say, My Madras, Dupiaza or Jal Frezi.
My wife, who by her own addmission, is not a massive curry lover, won't eat anything other than my Veg Bhuna, when it comes to curry night. She absolutely, flat refuses to have one delivered form anywhere, and she pulls her kite, when I suggest going for an Indian meal.
I've tasted it, and I don't like it but then again, I'm not a veg lover, hence my lack of interest in topics on Saag Aloo or Bombay potato
You never know, I just may have stumbled upon this taste by accident.
Is this your own recipe or is it the Kushi version?
No, this is all mine, with a bit from here and a bit from there, like ya do ;D
Ray :)
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Would you agree that age has a part to play in all of this
I'm sure age does play a part but I'd make two suggestions:
1. I believe memories can become blurred. Can anyone really recall the exact nuances of flavour from a curry in the 1970s, even if they're old enough to have been visiting curry houses back then?
2. There's no doubt in my mind that I've had recent meals at BIRs which are at least as good and tasty as anything I had decades ago. Even if the flavours are not identical, the end result is at least as good for my taste.
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I've never had a BIR Bhuna, at least that I can remember. I usually make CK's, and find its an excellent curry, and one of my favourites.
But Vindaloo, I would agree, there is not a recipe on cr0 that matches the best I've had in a restaurant in the UK.
I'd also say that the best ones were clearly not extra hot Madrases either. More tart, more cumin, and a different sort of heat is the best I can recollect. This supports the vindaloo paste/green chilli theory possibly.
One day soon I will revisit the UK and ask members for recommendations on where to go for a top drawer Bhuna.
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A vindaloo is a very simple recipe curry
It shows exactly how good your curry base is
That's the problem
Over the years I have been given many genuine base gravies
When you heat them, they give a BIR aroma, that home made gravies don't have
If you make a more complicated curry, with more ingredients, it hides any shortcomings of the base
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... and she pulls her kite, when I suggest going for an Indian meal.
It's amazing how language varies as one moves across the country : I don't think I have ever heard of "pulling one's kite" before, although I think I can guess what it means !
I've tasted it, and I don't like it but then again, I'm not a veg lover, hence my lack of interest in topics on Saag Aloo or Bombay potato. You never know, I just may have stumbled upon this taste by accident.
Now this is interesting, because I too am a carnivore through and through, and yet I feel reasonably confident that I could become a vegetarian if I lived on the sub-continent : Sag Aloo / Bombay Aloo, and -- best of all -- Masala Dosa, are (to my mind) wonderful dishes, and lift mere vegetables from the mundane to the sublime.
** Phil.
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Hi Chaa,
It's amazing how language varies as one moves across the country : I don't think I have ever heard of "pulling one's kite" before, although I think I can guess what it means !
Yeah, sorry for that. Kite is Manc rhyming slang for face, as in, Kite Race = Face, lol
Now this is interesting, because I too am a carnivore through and through, and yet I feel reasonably confident that I could become a vegetarian if I lived on the sub-continent
Again, spot on, I reckon I could cope with most veg, if it were to be given a "make over" as such.
The only Veg that I can really eat cooked on their own are, potatoes, peas and onions, anything else has to be curried, stir fried or whatever.
Ray :)
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Kite is Manc rhyming slang for face, as in, Kite Race = Face, lol
Amazing : I didn't even know there were such things as kite races. But I still don't understand how they can work : to get a kite aloft, you have to pull on its cord, do you not ? So how do you then race them ?
The only Veg that I can really eat cooked on their own are, potatoes, peas and onions, anything else has to be curried, stir fried or whatever.
Much the same as me : potatoes (cooked almost anyhow, except in their skins), onions, peas (Batchelor's Processed or Mushy, fresh only on sufferance), spinach and green/red/orange/yellow peppers : the last two because they were probably the only vegetables not to be forced down my throat at primary school, so I never acquired an aversion to them !
But tell me, Ray, have you ever tried a Masala Dosa ? These are Indian Vegetarian Cuisine to die for, in my opinion.
** Phil.
P.S. Changed my identity : "Chaa006" is a really silly thing to be called :)
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Hi PHIL ;D
But tell me, Ray, have you ever tried a Masala Dosa ?
Can't say that I have. I have tried the Chicken Dosai in the KD2 but Im guessing that it's a different thing altogether, as is the spelling.
So how do you then race them ?
I suppose it's like kite surfing, but you race each other http://www.kiteracing.com/Home.html (http://www.kiteracing.com/Home.html)
Ray ;D
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Can't say that I have. I have tried the Chicken Dosai in the KD2 but Im guessing that it's a different thing altogether, as is the spelling.
I suspect they are the same : "dosai" is a more faithful transliteration of the original, and "dosa" an anglicisation (but the chef in the video below claims otherwise). Basically a crispy rice-flour/gram-flour pancake, stuffed with savoury wonders :)
http://www.videojug.com/webvideo/how-to-make-dosa-dosai (http://www.videojug.com/webvideo/how-to-make-dosa-dosai)
** Phil.
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Hi Phil,
Very intersting video. I've seen this fellow plenty of time before hand. As you are probably already aware, you can by Dosai batter mix from any Asian supermarket, so no need for the presoaking malarki. The fillings are endles really so I wonder why they've not made it to the BIR/TA menu? Well, not that I've ever noticed anyway.
Ray :)
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Very interesting video. I've seen this fellow plenty of time before hand. As you are probably already aware, you can by Dosai batter mix from any Asian supermarket, so no need for the presoaking malarki.
Well, I've tried the Dosai batter mix, but completely failed to achieve that thin crispy texture that the chef so admirably demonstrated. I will try again, using his slow gentle technique, but I suspect that the pre-mixed stuff is never going to adequately re-create that texture ...
The fillings are endless really so I wonder why they've not made it to the BIR/TA menu?
You almost certainly need to find a Southern Indian BIR or T/A, but I don't know whether they exist in your region. "Darn sarf" we have plenty, and there is a Southern Indian takeway in Glasgow, but I don't know about Manchester (how close are Bolton and/or Ramsbottom ?).
** Phil.
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Phil,
how close are Bolton and/or Ramsbottom ?).
Close enough to be classed as Greater Manchester but far enough away for them to talk with a funny accent like Peter Kay, lol,
Seriously, probably about 20 - 30 minutes away.
So they appear on the menu around your way then Phil? I think the vast majority of TA's up here in Manchester are probably Bangladeshi, Pakistani or Punjabi. I think there are a couple of Kerala places in town but couldn't swear to it?
Ray :)
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Very interesting video. I've seen this fellow plenty of time before hand. As you are probably already aware, you can by Dosai batter mix from any Asian supermarket, so no need for the presoaking malarki.
Well, I've tried the Dosai batter mix, but completely failed to achieve that thin crispy texture that the chef so admirably demonstrated. I will try again, using his slow gentle technique, but I suspect that the pre-mixed stuff is never going to adequately re-create that texture ...
I've often admired the ease with which you see them make dosas in youtube videos but I've never thought to actually try to make one at home. In fact I can't see how you would as you need a large flat heated surface to do it right and the right batter of course. The nearest thing I could imagine using would be a large oven tray that I have, that just might work although heating it evenly would be a challenge.
It's clear that three things need to be in order though for success, those being a good batter, a good heated surface and last, but not least, technique.
I see it as being like making a decent crepe and we all know how satisfying it is to have a nice big crepe just after after getting up in the morning. ;D
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Interesting thread. I totally agree with your comments haldi. vindaloo, and madras are the simplest bir dishes i have seen a bir chef make. As haldi points out it shows the true measure of your skills, (or lack in my case ! ) I always remember the chef at my local said bir chefs must learn madras first, as all other recipies derive from this. perhaps we should all go back to basics and master madras. Its a shame the chef from jbs lessons did not focus more on madras. I think that would have been very useful.
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I've often admired the ease with which you see them make dosas in youtube videos but I've never thought to actually try to make one at home. In fact I can't see how you would as you need a large flat heated surface to do it right
Ah, I can see that someone will have to bring one of these (http://www.rajalakshmikitchenequipment.com/F2153/dosa_chapathi_plate.html)home from his/her next trip to India !
Or perhaps a trip to the local sheet-metal fabricators, with the dimensions of one's hob, and see if one can get a custom-made hob-top that covers all four elements and is sufficiently thick to ensure even heat distribution ?
** Phil.
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Or perhaps a trip to the local sheet-metal fabricators, with the dimensions of one's hob, and see if one can get a custom-made hob-top that covers all four elements and is sufficiently thick to ensure even heat distribution ?
Could try using a Tawa or Tava? Won't be as big as the Vah Chef's dosai but I'm sure they'll be big enough?
Ray :)