Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Yellow Fingers on October 03, 2005, 11:25 AM
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I was just looking at the sample pages for the new book and I think we're not going to get any new methods or 'secrets' from it judging by this. Although the unknown factor, at least at this stage, is the Kushi spice mix which might make a difference but I doubt it. I think it's likely to be one of the best books for total beginners to the hobby though.
These are the pages, they are a bit lo-res but you can get the idea from them.
The originals are here http://www.kushibalti.co.uk/about.htm
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Sadly, my expectations for this new book are quite low, only because all the books, videos and eBay offerings which have gone before have failed in producing the BIR taste, whilst promising just that in the preamble and pre-purchase publicity. If they said it was impossible to produce the BIR taste at home, and explained why, but "here are some recipes for a poor second best", then I might be more accepting.
The gap in expectations with any of these books can be one of only two things - either (a) they deliberately hold back certain ingredients or techniques or (b) techniques like final tasting really are vital and nobody here has ever succeeded. I still vote for (a).
My acid test (as mentioned before) is now whether a bag of home made curries in sealed foiled containers and a plastic carrier bag would smell as strong and delicious outdoors as the take-away delivered to my neighbour a few months back. I only knew somebody was walking towards their house, when the smell hit me. This can't be anything too subtle, to smell so strong.
The other acid test is whether any of our attempts (recipes) could be 'signed off' as perfectly 'up to the job' if we decided to set up a take-away as a test of public opinion, i.e. that our customers would think these dishes were (a) good and (b) had the taste they've come to expect from any BIR. A bit like that TV programme where people have a few weeks to train for a different job, and see if they can persuade experts.
Regards
George
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(a & b).last paragraph.
I`ve had three friends ask me if i would like to go into business cooking my Curries in a sort of local Curry house after they tasted my two last recipes ( Vindalloo & Madras ).no joke .
They really think ive got a viable product & that my Curries would have people coming back again & again.
this of course give me a great boost & drives me to keep striving as I'm sooooo close .
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My acid test (as mentioned before) is now whether a bag of home made curries in sealed foiled containers and a plastic carrier bag would smell as strong and delicious outdoors as the take-away
George I remember when you said this the first time and I wholeheartedly agree. It bears repeating occasionally so that the new members to the site can see what we are trying to achieve. But I'll tell you now, I truly believe we will never achieve this goal until one of us has been shown the ingredients and techniques, from making the base sauce to the finished curry, actually in a curry house. This is the only way that we will pick up on the missing ingredient or technique that is apparently not obvious to the chefs who have helped people on this forum.
It's just not plausible that between the number of books we've read between us, the number of curries that we've made and the number of small variations we must have made to each curry that someone hasn't stumbled across the secret. There has to be something that is not being revealed, even if it is inadvertently.
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It's just not plausible that between the number of books we've read between us, the number of curries that we've made and the number of small variations we must have made to each curry that someone hasn't stumbled across the secret. There has to be something that is not being revealed, even if it is inadvertently.
I don't think it can be done at home
With all of our witnessed demos and countless hours experimenting and discussing ideas, someone would have done it by now
I am sure the chefs who visited my house and let me in their kitchens, were not lying or hiding anything.
I believe this new curry book will be genuine too
I don't think we will get any closer, though.
I think the restaurant curry is somehow, the product of it's environment
I have bought "alright" curries, which I have made as good
But when I buy a good one, there is no way I could match that
Maybe the fumes of cooking, and the tandoor, get absorbed into the curry base
I have seen them salvage oil from a curry and put it back in the base, too.
That oil would be highly flavoured
Maybe if you attempted to cook 50 varied curries in one evening (doing the flambe bit) and saved the oil for the curry base,(while also cooking 30 skewers of tandoori chicken), you'd get what you want
Actually I would quite like to try!
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Pete, I disagree. I believe any BIR could and should be exactly replicated at home - it defies logic that this is not possible. The fact that many people are trying 10/20/30 onion base derivatives should remove the dependency on quantities not being accurate either.
Keep the faith, someone will get it spot on sooner or later.
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To me the big thing that cant be replicated at home is the fact that you have cooked the dish yourself, you havent walked a mile, had a couple of pints before hand and then had the dish brought steaming to your table.
Having said that there is definately something different about BIR curries, in the oil maybe, a tarka of onions and garlic added maybe?
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I will never stop trying, but last Saturday's curry was a real smack in the face
I reheated frozen curries
They were all good and tasty curries
But one of them was a bought curry
The aroma was nothing like any of my cooked curries
It had that wonderful smokey onion smell
It's not a spice smell
It's flavour also had that extra something
If you tried a bit, it was very difficult to resist another "taste"
The closest home made curry was one that had Black Cardomons and Chicken Jelly in it
I have watched them prepare curries at the place where I got the bought curry
It's a very simple recipe
It has to be the base where the flavour is
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Pete, I disagree. I believe any BIR could and should be exactly replicated at home - it defies logic that this is not possible.
Blade
I'm with you, and Yellow Fingers, I think, on this one. I see no scientific, logical or common sense reason why we shouldn't be able to produce exactly the same taste and aroma at home, without massive investment (e.g. a ?3000++ commercial tandoor), time or trouble - just the apparently still missing know-how.
Regards
George
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It has to be the base where the flavour is
Yes I totally agree. What's common to all the curries?, the elusive taste and smell. What else is common to all the curries?, the base sauce. It can't be the making of the finished curry because that's something that, apart perhaps from the size of the gas burner, is something we can exactly produce at home.
We're never likely to get anyone to see the full making of the base as done in a restaurant just because it takes so long. The problem then is that whatever it is that's giving the taste and possibly the smell is apparently something unwittingly done by the chef. I say unwittingly because if all the bases that have been divulged by the chefs to people on this forum are accurate, but still don't give the taste, then the chef is clearly not aware that some part of the base making process is crucial to it. This would seem to be confirmed by those members who have not only been told by the chefs that it can't be reproduced at home, but have had those same chefs around to cook it, and guess what, it didn't have the taste or smell.
It has to be because of the quantities that that the base sauce is made in. Now I don't mean that because they cook say 50 onions for a base sauce and we cook only 4, say, that there is some magic that stops it coming out the same flavour, that's just nonsense. What I mean is that some mechanical process, or some technique that is used purely because they have to deal with such large quantities is somehow totally transforming the final product.
So in my opinion it is something that is involved with bulk cooking of the base sauce and it's not because of the smaller quantities made at home. It also has to be common to nearly all Indian restaurants because they virtually all have that taste and smell.
I have to say too that I still don't have the faith that most of the people here do that the chefs are telling the whole story. Omission after all is not the same as telling porkies. As proof just look back at the chicken stock debate. At the start of this forum it was never considered. When finally it was suggested, most people said 'no way, they can't use stock in the base'. A few weeks on from that people had managed to find out that infact some do use stock in the curry base. And what about the re-use of the oil from the base when making the finished curry. Not the greatest crime, but they might not want you to know they do this. Just how many more little tricks might they be using and in what combination? This speaks volumes to me.
It's totally frustrating and I dare say this topic will come up again and again as it has before, just because it is so frustrating.
So, the question is what techniques/operations/methods could be being used by the curry houses when preparing bulk quantities for the base, that might have an effect on the final taste?
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We're never likely to get anyone to see the full making of the base as done in a restaurant just because it takes so long.
I'm beginning to doubt the time taken, now, other than continual simmering after the sauce is made and being used. I see a figure of 45 minutes being mentioned quite a lot and I reckon that sounds about right for any kitchen where time is money. Moving from a 45 mins base sauce to a 6 hour base sauce simply won't produce the strong smell I've referred to. It's more likely to REDUCE the aroma coming off the finished dish, IMHO.
I suggest again, that the smell coming out of the take-away containers is not coming off the tandoor or any other source at the restaurant. It's coming only from the bag when I smell it. The inside of your car is another aroma trap as you carry a take-away home. Perhaps this smell could be onion tarka, or fenugreek or something else which is very pungent, and goes into most curries. I'm amazed we haven't cracked the smell yet, if not the taste. Or perhaps some of you have - perhaps some of your curries do smell like that.
Pete and others mentioned, I think, in previous threads, that the taste was not present in various restaurant demos they'd had. I reckon that's simply because they left out one or more steps.
Can't any supporters of this site (ideally Indian-looking, to stand more chance of being accepted) get a temp job as a kitchen hand in some BIR, for a few days, and report back?
Regards
George
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I know about the smell of dried fenugreek leaves, it can overwhelm a curry
and doesnt seem to work if you add it too early to a dish
but what about fresh fenugreek, ive heard its available in the u.k.
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Isn't anyone friendly enough with their local curry house to get a sample of the base they use on a daily basis? If you were then to cook a curry with that and it had the smell and taste, whereas before your curries didn't, that would finally tell us whether the base is the critical ingredient.
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Im sure Pete managed to get hold of some curry house base?
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Hi all,
I might be getting my own hopes up as well as some of yours possibly, but I've dropped hints with the missus for a while now that for me next birthday (which is a bit of a milestone) I would like to spend the day being a kichen boy in a curry house somwhere.
Her wry responses lead me to think that she might have been able to sort it somewhere. its the middle of next month.
There's no gurantees of course but my thinking is that if somewhere is willing to let me in for the day then there's a good chance they won't be trying to hide anything. All being well, I'll see a base sauce going from onion sack to plate.
Now...does anyone have one of those covert cameras that they can lend me?!
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make sure the curry house has a large bag of secret ingredient
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Im sure Pete managed to get hold of some curry house base??
Yes I did
The infuriating thing is that it doesn't have the taste
It was very like "muttley's" curry gravy
I have had meals, from this take away, with and without the taste
Work that one out!
At that place I saw them with another large pot of curry gravy on their stove (15 inches tall)
It had been boiled the evening before
I saw them use a large hand blender (about 18 inches long) and puree it
Then they heated it up and added a couple of very large spoons of spice mix
I was told that it needed cooking for longer and would be used when the old pot ran out.
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I know about the smell of dried fenugreek leaves, it can overwhelm a curry and doesnt seem to work if you add it too early to a dish
but what about fresh fenugreek, ive heard its available in the u.k.
Hi A.S.
Yes, fresh Fenugreek is available over here although not everywhere, mainly areas with a high ethnic population. I agree dried fenugreek is a bit overpowering. I have had quite a few meals almost spoilt by adding the amount the recipe said. I now tend to add about half this amount, maybe a little more which seems about right. It is certainly a main component in many curries, if not bases. I wonder what substituting dried for fresh might do?
It is strange that the book "100 Best Balti Curries" talks about fresh "Methi" and also how easy it is to grow yet none of the recipes in the book seem to use it fresh only dried.
Ray
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I have tried fresh fenugreek leaves
It tastes nothing like dried
It seems almost like a mild tasting spinach
More texture than anything else
I didn't think it added anything, that I would want to repeat
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I had the same experience Pete. My dad grows fresh fenugreek and once I substituted it in a rice recipe that asked for dried and there was no taste!! I was sure that putting the fresh one would add more taste but in the case of methi, dried is where the taste is! My dad dries his own and thats what I use. Fresh methi is only used in a handful of indian dishes - mostly dry dishes like with potato.
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...the book "100 Best Balti Curries" talks about fresh "Methi" and also how easy it is to grow...
I must try growing it again inside (soon) or outside (in the Spring). Fenugreek is quite well known as a 'green manure' i.e, grow it, then dig in the plant for a nitrogen fix before growing other crops. So I expected I'd have an area with a strong smell and a useful resource for making curries, as well as some nitrogen, after scattering loads of seeds about 6 months ago. Something went wrong! I'm not sure how to identify a fenugreek plant but nothing came up which smelled of fenugreek, when I rubbed various leaves between my fingers. I assume they weren't fenugreek plants. If I try again, indoors, in a heated seed tray, it will be a more tightly controlled experiment.
Regards
George
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The little plants dont have a "fenugreek" smell at all!! they dont have much of a smell if i remember correctly - even when crushed.
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The little plants dont have a "fenugreek" smell at all!! they dont have much of a smell if i remember correctly - even when crushed.
Then perhaps my fenugreek plants did come up, but I didn't realise it! But how can an inert fresh leaf turn into something with so strong a smell when dried? Or are there different varieties of plant - some which smell and some which don't?
Regards
George
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I read somewhere that in Pakistan they eat fresh fenugreek like
a vegetable
Did you know that fenugreek is actually european,
think i read it means "greek hay" cause the
Romans used to feed their horses that.
Coriander is orginally from europe too
as improbable as it maybe sound. :)
Learn something new everyday, apart from the secret ingedient tho :0
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About five years ago my wife grew a few interesting "sprouts"
She did mung bean, alfalfa and fenugreek
You only let them grow about an inch long
Approximately 4 days growth
Get some boiling water, drop in the sprouts and as soon as it comes to the boil again, it's ready.
We did the fenugreek sprouts and the next day we stunk of a festy curry smell
Not from our breath, but our arm pits and bodies
I have never known anything like it
You weren't quite sure, if it was you giving off the smell (but it was)
I vowed never again
I've been looking at the extract, for the new book's curry base
I must admit when you squint enough to read it, it seems like it might be very good
It's got the "browning garlic ginger" at the start
but the spices follow that, and it mentions the wonderful spice aroma
Most of the recipes, I have been told, put the spices in at the boiling stage
Maybe this will make the difference
And maybe this aroma is the one we all can't figure out!
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I went to Tesco today and they have started to stock fresh methi, palak, and other veg. The methi leaves are about the size of a new penny. I tried some and it tasted like grass. I'm amazed that it can become such a useful herb/spice when dried. I can't imagine it being very nice when used fresh though, even in a curry!
There was an asian lady next to me casting her eye over the methi, she gave it a brief look, squashed a bit in her fingers and sniffed it, then walked away. I don't know if that's just because it wasn't fresh or what?
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Browsing my curry books last night I came across this pre-treatment for dried methi in Cyrus Todiwala's Cafe Spice Namaste book:
Heat oven to 200C, spread a packet of dried methi on a baking tray, then put in the oven, turn off the heat and leave for 4-5 hours(!). Pick out the bits of stem, crush between your fingers and store in an airtight jar.
This is supposed to intensify/improve the flavour. It seems an interesting alternative to the often quoted advice to soak the leaves in water and drain before adding. If it does change the flavour it might be worth a try but if it just strengthens it then I'm not so sure - I think it's been mentioned here before, and I've certainly found that it's all too easy to ruin a dish by overdoing the methi.
Was the dried methi used in restaurant demo's straight from the packet?
Robert
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spread a packet of dried methi on a baking tray, then put in the oven
So they take methi which has been dried to within an inch of its life, and then dry it a bit more! Makes no sense to me, but I haven't tried it, so who knows? I would think that leaving it for 5 hours is because they use catering ovens and they would stay warm for much longer than a domestic oven. Either way, I have my doubts.
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I went to Tesco today and they have started to stock fresh methi, palak, and other veg. The methi leaves are about the size of a new penny. I tried some and it tasted like grass. I'm amazed that it can become such a useful herb/spice when dried. I can't imagine it being very nice when used fresh though, even in a curry!
There was an asian lady next to me casting her eye over the methi, she gave it a brief look, squashed a bit in her fingers and sniffed it, then walked away. I don't know if that's just because it wasn't fresh or what?
This fits with my own non-observation. As mentioned, I scattered fenugreek seeds across open ground last summer and waited until something appeared which smelled like fenugreek. But nothing did smell like fenugreek, or anything much, and I didn't know which leaf shape I was looking for. I'm amazed that fresh fenugreek could smell of nothing, whilst dried fenugreek is so pungent.
Also, where has the Kushi Balti book got to?
Regards
George
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I bought fresh methi last week to use with a vegetable dish - we cook it with potatoes and it gives an amazing flavor when cooked. it is used kind of like spinach is used. The leaves were kind of oval or round shaped i think. Fresh, it didnt give much flavor when crushed.
Payal
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Payal
Please clarify!
In your first sentence you say: "I bought fresh methi..it gives an amazing flavor when cooked."
In your last sentence you say: "Fresh, it didnt give much flavor..."
Do you mean that straight from the shops or ground:
- fresh methi has no flavour or aroma, but
- the same fresh methi gives an amazing flavour after it is cooked, whereas
- dried methi smells straight away and after it is cooked.
Regards
George
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Sorry for the misunderstanding! What I meant was when you break the fresh methi leaves, it doesnt give off much smell. But when cooked, it gets a very deep, different smell and that flavor is very different than the flavor that comes from the dried methi leaves!! There must be some chemical reactions that cause it to be so differently flavored in different forms.