Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: jb on October 14, 2010, 08:55 AM
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After a lot of persuasion(ok nagging)I've finally managed to get myself a lesson in my local take-away(this Monday 17th).The place is not much to look at;it is a small take-away tucked away in the middle of nowhere,however the food is excellent.
Not sure exactly what they will be willing to give away,I've explained that I've had some lessons before and I(hopefully)know the basics.
I know my eyes will be everywhere....I hope they're ready to be bombarded with questions!!!! I will keep you posted....
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Wow JB!
I'm very excited for you!
Can you please keep an extra eye out for any and all use of oil such as skimming from the base to start the dish or a special oil or reuse etc?
Good luck
Regards
Russell
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I agree with Russell, that would be great to know.
Also, keep an eye on the time it takes to cook a curry. It can be very deceptive in a busy kitchen. It would also be good to note how much the garlic / ginger is cooked before the base goes in. Is it raw, light brown, dark brown e.t.c.
Have loads of fun, I'm sure they will regret asking you in by the end of it :)
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No probs trying not to build my hopes up too high don't want to be dissapponted until I get there and find out exactly what they're gonna show me.High on my agenda to ask about is oil,base sauce,marinades,gas heat...oh well you all know the score!!!
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Any chance of a video? ;)
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Well done indeed. Your eyes will be everywhere as you try to take in everything. Try and stay focused on whet you really need to ask. It's hard, I know, but hopefully you may get to return.
I asked if I could take photo's to which they obliged. Good thing as I some things are best explained in pictures.
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Hey JB,
Good work again fella.
The beauty of this lesson, it will give you the chance to see how much variation there is between this and your home lessons.
Good luck.
Ray :)
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Excellent jb , at least take a pad and pen with you as you wont remember 1/2 of what you saw it's like Aladdin's cave in the kitchen and you wont know where to look first. :D
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I'll be taking a pen and pad for sure.Not sure about video though,or even a camera to be honest.I don't want to scare them off thinking I'm doing something undercover or checking up on them if that makes sense.I just want to get my foot in the door and see how it pans out.Hopefully the offer of ready cash for some lessons might temp them.
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I think that's very wise. Probably best to ignore any scurrying sounds and unusual insects as well ;)
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Guys just got in from my take away lesson...all I can say is fantastic fantastic!!! Been to curry heaven and back!
Arrived at 7.30 and got out at 10.45 all for 25 quid,Cooked a base sauce,madras and bombay aloo.Took some base sauce home with me along with everything else I did.There was a never ending stream of orders so I stood by the chef while he cooked them all....kormas,tikka masalas,sag aloo,madras etc.I watched them all.Will give you a full report tomorrow hopefully!!!!
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I'm so excited about this
I can't wait JB
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Sounds awesome, hurry up and wake up and post! I'm very interested in hearing where you think the differences were between how you cook a curry and how they do. Getting to cook your own there must have been really helpful.
What an amazing evening you must have had. We are all incredibly jealous.
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Great Stuff jb
For ?25 that sounds like a bargain deal, looking forward to your report.
Matt
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Arrived at 7.30 and got out at 10.45 all for 25 quid
They paid you only 25 quid for 3 1/4 hours work ? Cheapskates !
But more seriously, well done : like every forum member, I await your full report with considerable interest.
** Phil.
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I would be very interested to know if any of the bases on this site compare to the base you took home you.
Looking forward to your report. :)
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Right here goes I'll try not to ramble too much but I spent so long in the takeaway last night I don't know where to begin.I might split this into two or three posts-I spent ages typing today,the site went down and I lost the lot!!
Anyway I arrived about 6.45pm,met the manager and explained what I knew already after having my previous lessons.I donned my chef whites and was led into the kitchen.As it's a small open kitchen where I've seen the chef cook before,there was only two people working,the Manager(who spoke very good English)and the chef(he was a bit harder to understand).The Manager took care of naan breads,bhajis etc whilst the chef did everything else.I thought as it was a Monday it would be quiet but it was in fact very busy.This gave me the added bonus of standing next to the chef watching everything he did.I found it hard to concentrate at first as there was so much to look at,behind the cooker was the table where he had all of his fresh ingredients and at the side was his spices.I really wish I could have had another member of the forum with me,I asked a lot of questions but I've since thought of a lot more!!The place is in Essex not far from junction 31 on the M25 if anyone live near here,he's quite keen to do lessons for some reason.I left about 10.40 laden with my goody bags,the Manager said I was welcome to come back for more lessons,in fact he said when I'm cooking my base sauce at home to phone him if I get stuck!!
Base Sauce
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First question was obviously the base sauce.I had a good look inside the pot,the contents was the normal yellow/orange with a little film of oil at the sides.He said he would show me a scaled down version but using exactly the same ingredients as they use in the kitchen.He explained there is no definite base sauce recipe,every takeaway uses the same basic principles and add their own touches to make it different and unique to them.I asked about the inclusion of asofotedia(hing),margarine,ajowain seeds etc.He had never heard of hing and didn't use the other two,although others may use them.My big question was the use of spiced oil,or onion bhaji oil.He'd never used that either although again he said others might just to avoid throwing oil away.On the subject of spiced oil I saw no use of it whatsoever in the take-away,I asked him if he skimmed the top of the gravy to make dishes and he said no.On the stove was a tin full of vegetable oil(I think the make was pride).No ghee was used(except for naan breads and pillau rice).As I watched the chef cook all the dishes using plain oil(and having tasted them before) I'm confident that the elusive taste can be done without spiced oil.The gravy ingredients themselves were pretty standard apart from one thing..
5 large white onions
1 spring onion
3 chillis
small piece of lemon
1 carrot
handfull of coriander leaves and stalks
half a green pepper
small spoon of tomato puree
1/4 of coconut block(this one surprised me)
chef spoon of ginger/garlic paste
1/4 teaspoon each of Cinnamon,coriander,cumin,garam masala(he actually makes his own-I smelt it and it was wonderful)
Everything was chopped and put into a large pot. the ginger/garlic was added as well as the spices.Two mug fulls of vegetable oil was added as was water to cover it.It was then put on a high heat with the lid on for about 45 mins.He actually added some more water about half way.It was then left to cool.After fumbling about with a mini blender he decided to get out the big industrial stick one they use to blend it which was quite amusing.
(continued onto next post)
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jb,
fascinating post. i'm sure you've really struck gold.
all sits very well with me and very much looking forward to the "continued".
take a big pat on the back sir.
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Hi
Thank you for that, more surprised by the spring onion, thanks again.
Regards
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Hi jb
Thank you for the great report.
Would you say that this restaurant has the magic? does its dishes have the elusive quality about them?
If you would like a companion on your next visit (I'm miles away) but please consider the request ;)
Thanks again for your reports
Regards
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(continued)
After he blended it he invited me to taste.Given the standard ingredients I really didn't think it was going to taste any better than others I have made.However I was completely wrong.It was very moorish but not too spicy(he said it shouldn't be spicy as it's used in both kormas and madras).I was surprised that the garlic/ginger paste is not fried first but he said it was not necessary,everything is just placed into the pot.The coconut was a suprise as well,he said you have to be careful as you can overpower the flavour with it.I think it was only ever mentioned on one other base on this site( http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=923.msg8159#msg8159 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=923.msg8159#msg8159)).The base was actually boiled rapidly with the lid on for about 45 minutes.I only usually boil my base for about 15 minutes at the most so maybe that is a point to consider.After blending the base was simmered and the oil floated to the top.Half way through the evening the base sauce pot ran out so they started using a fresh pot.After this had been heated the oil started to float on their one as well.The chef then informed me of another new ingredient.On the floor was a big pot of precooked chicken,in a sort of oily red/orange mixture.After the chef had taken the chicken out with a slotted spoon I asked him what he did with the sauce or mixture that is left from this,is it thrown away??? No he said that is poured into the base gravy as well!!!! Also the chicken bones they have are boiled and the result is also put into the gravy.So there you go if you are a vegetarian be careful what you eat in an Indian Restaurant.Actually the chef on my home lessons also mentioned the practice of putting a chicken carcass into the base gravy altough he he didn't because of vegetarian issues.Anyway I took two portions of base sauce home with me...
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/5a66c4fbcfc79e1cd7abf21ee1a2593c.JPG)
I'm going to use it the weekend to see how I get on,it may need a bit of water as it reduced a bit to much.Phew next bit coming up....
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Solarspice no problems having you(or anyone) along.It would be great to have another pair of eyes with me!!!As I said the place is your bog standard takeaway you can find up an down the country,no frills but certainly big on taste with that elusive flavour.For some reason the guys are quite keen to share their secrets it's such as shame that other places are not so willing.The wife said I was grinning like a cheshire cat when I walked in last night.
chicken madras
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Next up was madras my favourite dish.I can get the chicken spot on after my home home lessons but it's still the sauce I struggle with so that's what I concentrated on.I watched the chef cook about four portions of this and he made it look so easy.Into a pan he put some plain veg oil(everytime he made a dish he made a point of stirring it around with the back of the spoon).As soon as the pan was hot the ginger/garlic paste was added and stirred.Next up was a couple of strange ones,a curry leaf and about 3 slivers of ginger.Why add ginger when you've added ginger/garlic paste I asked....to give even more flavour the chef replied.Next was tower brand tomato puree(diluted with water and I'm sure the chef said mixed with some garlic powder).He added the tinniest bit of salt I've ever seen together with a pinch of methi,chili powder and mix powder.I asked the manager what was in the mix powder and the ingredients were virtually identical to the mix powder my own chef taught me).He then put in a ladle of base sauce and stirred.Next in were precooked onion/pepper from a tub.The chef said this was done to speed up cooking times,it looked like they were cooked in some mix powder and oil,I guess a sort of onion paste.He then produced a dollop of what the manager called chili sauce.This was just various blended chill is in mixed with oil.He then added more base sauce and finished with a squeeze of KTC lemon dressing and coriander.When I return for another lesson I will delve into the onion paste and chili sauce a bit more(maybe this was the same sort of chili sauce I spotted on the East End Takeaway cam recently).One point is the lack of flames or really intense heat.The dish was cooked under a medium heat with no big flames etc.Anyway I had a go at cooking one...
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/fd6ed03fc364d478ce5d9a7ee9ab10d3.JPG)
I used too much oil the chef said but it still had the flavour and texture.
Got a bit carried away by then...
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/1f0775d14133c12eb2ef9ccf6db22bb6.JPG)
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Fantastic stuff jb!
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Wow! great stuff JB, i would love to know whats in that pre cooked chicken mixture?, hats off to you matey for your efforts.
i also use coconut block in my base, i think it adds a slihtly creamer taste but hard to notice.
atb
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jb,
certainly some food for thought.
that 3rd from left finished dish in the row of 4 has a real stamp of authenticity for me - i can't describe it other than a grainy texture mingling with the oil.
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On the floor was a big pot of precooked chicken,in a sort of oily red/orange mixture.After the chef had taken the chicken out with a slotted spoon I asked him what he did with the sauce or mixture that is left from this,is it thrown away??? No he said that is poured into the base gravy as well!!!! Also the chicken bones they have are boiled and the result is also put into the gravy.
So now we have direct evidence that what they teach you is not exactly what they do themselves!
This has always been suspected when others have had similar demonstrations but has never been proved.
This alone has made your report worth its weight in gold jb. Well done.
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He had never heard of hing
I find that truly unbelievable! :o ???
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Just for info jb but the Ashoka base has coconut block in it.
This is a great post jb, keep them coming!!
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well done JB,
excellent feedback from your experiance yesterday.
I was also told a couple of years ago that the reason we dont replicate the absolute BIR curry at home, is purely because of the chicken bones being boiled and blended in there currys. when he was telling me he thought it would put me off currys for some strange reason.
I didnt think too much of what he said then up until now. thanks for that JB.
now who is going to be the first to try it in there base ;D
JB 1/1
Razor 2/1
SS 3/1
CA 7/2
JM 4/1
Moonster 25/1 ;D (rely far too much on you guys for me to try first)
regards
moonster
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Great posts jb, I wish I could get into a kitchen. It would be interesting to hear about the chilli sauce and the onion paste
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He had never heard of hing
I find that truly unbelievable! :o ???
Funny you should say that SS. I went to a local Asian supermarket last Friday (not my usual one) and they had had never heard of Hing either.
How bizarre is that?
now who is going to be the first to try it in there base ;D
JB 1/1
Razor 2/1
SS 3/1
CA 7/2
JM 4/1
Moonster 25/1 ;D (rely far too much on you guys for me to try first)
If I wouldn't had just knocked up 14 litres of my own base on friday, i would have defo give it a go.
However, I did simmer 1kg chicken in it for about 10 minutes, near the end of the cooking, not really to add anything to the base, just to give me a load of lazy pre-cooked chicken, really.
Great work JB, Bit suprised at some of the ingredients like onions and peppers in the Madras, unless they were blended, which I don't think they were, was they? Is that usual in and around Essex?
The base seems fairly standard doesn't it, with the exception of the coconut block?
Im so envious, you're a lucky lad.
Great job.
Ray :)
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Right here goes I'll try not to ramble too much but I spent so long in the takeaway last night I don't know where to begin.
JB - your posts really are first class - the forum at its best again. It's so good of you.
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JB - awesome posts! Fantastic stuff.
Just a couple of questions:
- How would you rate the curries from this restaurant? Did they have the taste we all associate with the best ones?
- Did the mini-base recipe look / taste exactly like the full base they were using in the restaurant?
Really looking forward to more on the chilli sauce, and the other recipes!!!
Great stuff!
-- Josh
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Hi JB
Really great work. We are all so pleased to have you on the site!
I had a quick question:
The precooked onion/pepper - was it discernible as onion and pepper chunks or was it cooked right down to a paste? If this was a paste, did they have slightly less precooked onion / pepper for adding to dishes that required them or would they go in raw?
On the base subject, I'm so glad they mentioned the chicken. This is coming up more and more. I bet a couple of Knorr stock pots added to a base would have the same effect without having to boil chicken bones.
I guess a good comparison would be it is the difference between cooking normal gravy for a roast dinner with or without adding the meat juices to the gravy. The one with the juices is 100 times nicer.
I think these guys could really crack the secret for us. As they are so liberal with the info, why not ask if you can take a camera and film the lot? The worst they can say is no, but I reckon they will be okay about it.
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On the base subject, I'm so glad they mentioned the chicken. This is coming up more and more. I bet a couple of Knorr stock pots added to a base would have the same effect without having to boil chicken bones.
As you may have seen from some earlier messages of mine, I use chicken or rabbit stock whenever possible, but rather than stock cubes you might like to consider trying Knorr Stock Pots : they are really good :)
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Hi all,
14l razor ;D you dont do things by half mate ;D
Razor your base recipe on this site makes 3l. I will be making a new batch on monday but i am very interested in using these knorr pots in your base and then doing the chicken bones to see if it makes a difference.
considering its your base i replicate, when would you add the knorr pots and how many? I am assuming you would add one pot at the stage where you add the 1.5 litres of water.
also to add the boiled chicken bones, would you just boil a full carcass seperatley in boiling water and make up the 1.5 litres that way?
another question, would one carcass be too much or not enough for 3 litres of base and the same goes for the knorr pots.
thanks in advance
Alan ;D
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JB,
Are you going to post the base rsauce ecipe in the 'Curry Base' Section or do you want me to do it?
Just a thought as it will get lost in this thread otherwise.
Fantsatic post, these are always the best.
Keep up the good work mate
Stew
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A quick post before I have to return to work.I opened the fridge about 10.30 this morning and the smell of the bombay potato was just too much!!! A quick blast in the microwave and it was quickly devoured!!! A relative called in and said blimey your house smells like a curry house!!! As it had been in the fridge a couple of days there was a settling of spicy orange oil in the bottom...the stuff that stains everything in sight and makes your fingers smell and stain as well.
On the subject of smell when I first entered the takeaway the smell immediately hit me as I walked in,that familiar takeaway/restaurant smell.I could really smell the dishes been cooked but the funny thing is after a while I couldn't smell it anymore,my senses must have got accustomed to it as I'm pretty sure it does when I cook at home.
I too was surprised that the manager had never heard heard of hing,or asofoetia as I explained to him.He was pretty certain on that,funny thing my chef who taught me at home had also never heard of it either.On Saturday kitchen the other week Madhur Jaffrey used it and I actually found it in my local Indian grocers,so whether it is normally used for home cooking I really don't know.
The onion /pepper mix he had was really well cooked down and soft in texture.When it was added to the madras it just seemed to melt away if that makes sense with no big chunks.When the chef cooked a jalfrezi he had a separate tub of chunky peppers/chillis etc.
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Great posts JB, the whole chicken bones thing reminds me slightly of Petes chicken jelly posts!
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well done JB - so when r you going to try and replicate the stuff you learned at home - will b interesting to see how it turns out
Garry
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Great posts JB, the whole chicken bones thing reminds me slightly of Petes chicken jelly posts!
I was trying to find the link to those earlier but I couldn't find them,I remember reading them a few years ago.Gonna try and do some cooking this weekend if I get the chance.
Admin I will post all the recipes in the relevant sections as well no problem,I have a few more posts to go here so hopefully by this weekend they should be done.Meanwhile I forgot here is a link to the curryhouse in question...
http://www.preemtilbury.co.uk/index.php (http://www.preemtilbury.co.uk/index.php)
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not wanting to be party pooper - as i, like us all are wide open for leaning and am sure we will learn much from jb's top notch post.
the only caution from direct experience is in the use of chicken carcase or bones - it's very strong tasting and perhaps i used too much - it put me off using it for base for good (posted sometime ago in i think currytester post). in the real BIR base i've tasted there was no indication of any chicken stock in it either. i'm not disputting it's use only that it may not be an essential factor.
odds on me for making the base are not good - i made base today. i have toyed with adding lemon but that's as far as it's got.
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JM,
i appreciate what you are saying with regards to the chicken bones. That is why i am quering how much to use in Razors base recipe of 3L. the restraunts might use a full carcass for 50L for example
I got talking to this guy by accident and i mentioned my favourate curry house from the early nighties and that i was gutted that it had moved from the area.
It only happened to be his sisters restraunt and that he used to work in the kitchen, as we got talking i expressed my frustration of not even becoming close to replicating what i have had from that or any other restraunt.
he put a real emphasis on the chicken bones being the difference between homemade and restraunt currys. now that JB picked up on it yesterday , this has prompted myself to give this a try.
JB, could you ask how much carcass they use in there base and attempt to scale it down please?
thanks
alan ;D
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Bombay potato
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Next up I asked the chef I could have a go at making some bombay potatoes,another dish I've been trying to replicate since my earlier home lessons.He asked me to prep two large potatoes into chunks and dice 4 large onions into small pieces.I thought blimey that's a lot of onions but they I soon found out they cooked down to nothing.He actually complimented me on my knife skills and said that I must have done this before which was quite nice.
The next step was to precook the potatoes,the method he showed me was entirely different to that shown on my other lessons and I believe is the method done by another takeaway near me as it produced exactly the same flavour.On my other lessons all I did was to gently boil some potatoes in salted water with a little turmeric until they were nearly cooked and then they were left to cool.
First the pot was heated up and a couple of spoonfuls of oil from the pot on the stove was added and heated.The usual ginger/garlic paste was added together with the 4 diced onions,they were then browned.He then added a spoonful of thinned tomato puree,the potatoes,pinch of salt a little mix powder and then some whole spices.These were a couple of black peppercorns,2 green cardamoms,1 star anise,1 bay leaf and a small piece of cinammon stick.He then put another ladle full of oil in.Why this wasn't put in at the beginning I don't know,I guess he was doing it by eye.He then topped the pan up with a two large mugs of water to cover the potatoes..The lid was then put and it was boiled rapidly until the potatoes were cooked and the liquid had disaperead leaving a thick onion like sauce.There was also plenty of orange spicy oil as well in the bottom of the pan.The potatoes were cooked exactly like the ones from my takeaway-texture was spot on without being mashed on the surface(unlike the technique I'm used to doing).The star anise and cinammon stick was removed and the potatoes were left to cool.
To actually make the bombay potato the usual ginger/garlic was put into a pan with a spoonful of oil,small amount of mix powder and then a small spoonful of base sauce.The potatoes were added and simmered and then a little more base sauce was added.To finish some coriander/spring onion garnish and half a tomato as well.I asked the chef about panch poren spice,he showed me a jar he had and said you can add a small pinch when frying the mix powder on the second stage.
This was very different to my usual efforts,and much tastier with a great flavour.I caught a glimpse once of a tray of precooked potatoes like this in another takeaway so I'm certain now that's how some places do it.Here are my efforts,I took the photos today so the oil has settled somewhat in the bottom of the carton....
.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/85ba2c2e6cf41ea761efbe23d275943a.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/746660c562523d0361ed56896c59787a.JPG)
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Hi Moony,
Sorry, I didn't pick up on your query, as it's further up the thread.
when would you add the knorr pots and how many? I am assuming you would add one pot at the stage where you add the 1.5 litres of water.
also to add the boiled chicken bones, would you just boil a full carcass separately in boiling water and make up the 1.5 litres that way?
Errm, I really wouldn't know mate lol. I only added the chicken to give me a "lazy" precooked chicken. looking at it logically, I would guess that if the BIR uses 1 chicken carcass for a 30ltr pot, to replicate it in a 3ltr base, you would probably only need 1 chicken wing, lol ;D
As for the Knorr stock pot's, again, I'm not sure. Is it a chicken flavour that you're looking for in a base?
I have heard of people using chicken stock for their base but the way I view a base is, it should be a spicy Vegetable stock!
But hey, give it a go, see where it takes you. I'm all for improving on what we have.
Sorry I wasn't of much help mukka ???
Ray :)
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no worrys Razor, you have helped me massivley so far.
I love your base and your recipes as it is mate, but that conversation i had years ago and the posts from JB, has really give me the urge to give the chicken bones a try.
once i have an idea of the ratio to use for the bones in your base, i am going to replicate your jalfrezi dish and do a side by side comparison with independent people testing.
hey mate it might lead to no improvement but if it does you will be the first to know ;D
BTW
how good does that bombay potato look?
thanks
alan ;D
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When I arrived in the takeaway I literally scrutinized everything they had on their shelves.One thing that caught my eye was a pinkish/red ingredient in a tub behind the chef.I asked the manager about it and he replied that it was their tikka masala paste.He said it had about 9 or 10 ingredients and he was quite happy to show me how to make it when I come back for another lesson when it's not so busy.I had a good look at it.It wasn't really a paste as such but quite thick as though you could cut it with a knife or scoop it out as the chef did when the first order came.I couldn't wait to see him cook it and was gobsmacked on just how easy and quick it was.He actually made about 5 tikka masalas that night.
All he did was get a cold pan,added a small amount of oil and then a chef spoon of this paste.He started to gently reheat it and added a ladle of base sauce.The paste kind of melted in the pan and then he added a small squirt of uht cream from a carton and then some precooked chicken tikka.Another lot of base sauce went in and it was then left to simmer.That was it.He put it into the takeaway carton,added some flaked almonds,sultanas and a swirl of cream again.
I had a good sniff of this on the side(remembering it was someones order!!!)and it was lovely,quite different from my own efforts,very moreish.I showed him the list of ingredients I use in my tikka masala(I had all of my own notes with me) and he said it was pretty close to their version(but obviously prepared in a different way).I will post my recipe over the weekend.
He then made a chicken korma.Again he used the same method of cooking but used a whitish/yellow paste this time.I can't wait to find out how they make these pastes.
Incidentally at the end of the night he prepared the chicken tikka marinade ready for the next day's service.This is one thing which I'm quite happy to replicate at home and I must say his recipe contained far fewer ingredients than I use.He took some Patak's tikka paste,coleman's mint sauce,fresh coriander,lemon juice,salt,home-made yogurt and some coleman's mustard.Added some orange colour and mixed it.I've tasted the tikka from here and it's very nice,maybe the use of a tandoori oven gives it more flavour.
I know even mentioning Pataks is controversial but as the Manager told me,they could stand and mix their own spices and pastes but they don't bother They end up with more or less the same result and it's a lot cheaper and quicker.They do make their own garam masla.I had a sniff of some of this in a tub and it was so different to shop brought stuff.
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I can't wait to find out how they make these pastes.
Thanks again for these very interesting posts. Here's my guess as to the ingredients in those pastes: Compared to some other recipes and sources, his CTM strikes me as glaring in its apparent omission of sugar, coconut and possibly ground almonds. When I watched the East End web cam last night they seemed to start with three pale powders for what I assumed to be CTM. East End then added a red-ish paste or masala. We know how to make Tandoori Masala from various sources.
My guess is that your take-away probably add the dry powders into the more liquid tandoori masala. This would thicken it up, so it could be 'cut with a knife'. It would be faster for them to produce a dish if the pre-mix is done in advance. On the other hand, perhaps 1 chef spoon doesn't seem enough overall quantity so I might be wrong.
Korma might be similar, with a different mix.
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and the posts from JB, has really give me the urge to give the chicken bones a try.
moonster,
everyone gets to this kind of junction now and then - they simple have to put there mind at rest. i think BIR's obviously used different techniques to achieve the same objective - the ashoka uses margarine which i've adopted as standard but in significantly reduced qty (1 tbsp per 800g onion). what i'm getting at is the same as Razor - vegetable stock suitable to make top notch curry.
when you do try out the bones "chicken stock" from my experience i would pro rata it on the low side along the lines you have said (make stock from 1 carcase and pro rata volume based on say 30L). i would then suggest using 1/2 initially and then gradually adding more to the base whilst it's cooking.
obviously further jb info would save much effort and deliberation.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2614.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2614.0)
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I can't wait to find out how they make these pastes.
i see this as our No 1 priority. i am convinced that the remaining gap between our main's and those of BIR are down to the use of pastes. even to know how many pastes are used would be a real step forward (for me anyhow).
so far we know for sure: tikka/tandoori masala, CTM masala, Red Chilli Sauce. i now even think tikka & tandoori can be different
i think there must be a paste used for vindaloo but that's purely guessing.
a big thanks to jb - as i said earlier fascinating stuff.
ps on the pataks - i feel this discussion is done - each to their own but there is ample proof that they are used by BIR's and the real challenge is working out how to use them correctly to achieve that overall balance of taste that BIR's achieve. i still get too much "vinegar" for example.
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I can't wait to find out how they make these pastes.
Thanks again for these very interesting posts. Here's my guess as to the ingredients in those pastes: Compared to some other recipes and sources, his CTM strikes me as glaring in its apparent omission of sugar, coconut and possibly ground almonds. When I watched the East End web cam last night they seemed to start with three pale powders for what I assumed to be CTM. East End then added a red-ish paste or masala. We know how to make Tandoori Masala from various sources.
My guess is that your take-away probably add the dry powders into the more liquid tandoori masala. This would thicken it up, so it could be 'cut with a knife'. It would be faster for them to produce a dish if the pre-mix is done in advance. On the other hand, perhaps 1 chef spoon doesn't seem enough overall quantity so I might be wrong.
Korma might be similar, with a different mix.
Although I didn't see him take a spoonful of coconut(or almonds,sugar etc) I'm sure I could smell coconut in the finished dish.When I asked the Manager about the paste I said oh I suppose coconut,sugar and he nodded.I may be wrong but I guess they've found a way of incorporating all the necessary ingredients into 1 paste.On a Friday or Saturday night the place is manic,and I suppose anything to quicken cooking times is welcome.
He showed me the pan they cook the gravy in at the weekend...it was huge!!! When I went into the storeroom there were sacks of onions everywhere.I really can't give any more info on the chicken stock,he didn't elaborate on quantities or exactly what goes in-I'll try to find out more when I revisit.On the subject of pastes,along with the chili sauce he used for the madras he had a tub of what he called balti sauce.Again can't be sure at the moment what was in it although he did say they used Patak's balti paste but tweak it and add their own spices.
I didn't bother cooking rice as I feel I can cook pillau rice as good(or better)than some takeaways.He did precook all his pillau rice(it was in a big plastic bowl).Whenever an order came in he just put a portion into a tray and microwaved it!!! Thought this was a bit of a cheat to be honest but he did give me a portion to takeaway and it was very nice.Keema rice was cooked in a wok with the same rice and a dollop of keema mince from another dish.I asked him how he spiced his pillau rice and it was the usual stuff..cloves,cinnamon stick,cardamom,bay,salt and fennel seeds.He used very little colour and cooked the spices in ghee.He also used a little ginger/garlic paste which I don't normally do but I'll give that a go next time.
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JM,
you are right mate, it would be prudent of me to wait and see, if and what JB comes back with regards to the chicken bones before trying them in Razors base. I would be purely guessing if i was to try it now.
heres hoping JB can add anything further regarding this in weeks to come.
thanks
Alan ;D
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He did precook all his pillau rice(it was in a big plastic bowl).Whenever an order came in he just put a portion into a tray and microwaved it!!! Thought this was a bit of a cheat to be honest but he did give me a portion to takeaway and it was very nice.
This fits with what I heard from the most recent BIR I went to. We didn't order any pilau rice because the naan and other stuff was sufficient to soak up the sauce. At the time of ordering, I asked if we could order pilau rice later if we found we needed it. The waiter said it was no problem and could always be delivered quickly because it's simply re-heated, or words to that effect. Thinking about it, nothing else would make as much sense, if you're running a busy BIR.
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you are right mate, it would be prudent of me to wait and see, if and what JB comes back with regards to the chicken bones before trying them in Razors base. I would be purely guessing if i was to try it now.
On the subject of bones, last night's curry here was made using a combined rabbit/chicken stock (with an excellent flavour all by itself). I sauteed 1 1/2 large onions, half a carrot, half a dozen cloves of garlic, added the stock and cooked in a pressure cooker whilst I went out to buy some ginger. When I got back the stage-1 sauce was ready, so I added some very thinly sliced ginger and pureed everything. That then went back on the stove with one teaspoon turmeric, one teaspoon paprika, a decent squeeze of tomato puree (about 40g, looking at how much is left in the tube), all the oil left over from the previous curry plus some new grapeseed oil, and the whole then simmered for about 20 minutes. Diluted it a little with boiling water, added the pre-cooked chicken, Bassar curry masala and salt (2 teaspoons and 1 teaspoon respectively), cooked for about eight minutes, added one teaspoon cumin, 1/2 teaspoon fenugreek and 1/4 teaspoon coriander, cooked for a few more minutes and served. Very very pleasant but a tad under-spiced (I had held back on the Bassar curry masala because the recycled oil was very hot, but that meant that I also had to hold back on the cumin, etc., so in the end it was slightly less spicy than I would have preferred). My wife commented that it would benefit from a little garam masala, which I tried, but I wasn't convinced it added anything other than body and a sense of "warmness" on the palate. What remains of the sauce will be re-used to cook a second curry with fresh chicken and extra spices.
** Phil.
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When I asked the Manager about the paste I said oh I suppose coconut,sugar and he nodded.I may be wrong but I guess they've found a way of incorporating all the necessary ingredients into 1 paste.
I wouldn't get overly excited about this paste method, it's been covered on this forum a few times.
It is, just as George suggested, the usual ingredients for a korma or tandoori masala with the extra sugar, coconut and nuts combined with it.
I think it was the post about the three-pot method where these pastes were first mentioned? I can't find it now.
Then there were the recent posts from the Aussie guy (sorry forgot your nick) and he posted similar pastes.
It's just a different technique towards achieving the same ends and doesn't really add anything to the final result.
That's not to say jb that I am not interested in this take away's own pastes. Please do post if you find out. Not withstanding my previous comments, I'm as interested as the next person.
Oh and I'd be really grateful if you could get the recipe for that keema mince. It's one of the things that I feel has not been covered enough on this forum.
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The potatoes were cooked exactly like the ones from my takeaway-texture was spot on without being mashed on the surface(unlike the technique I'm used to doing).
Actually the "mashed surface" variety is the type that I prefer. What is it in your technique that achieves this?
And those bomby potatoes in the pic look bloody delicious!
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Thanks jb great read!
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I have tried chicken stock many times, and its not straight forward. Basically you get a lot of red oil, and a rich chicken stock taste if you simply boil the chicken and add the stock. The taste is nice but far to strong to compare to bir cooking. The chef at my local said he uses chicken stock . however he dried up quickly when i asked him how. he said they add some to the base from pre cooking chicken. he did not explain how. I suspect its a key secret. Its not as simple as just adding a carcus, i have tried and its just not bir taste. its a lot more subtle than this. Part of the by product of pre cooking chicken is a stock that is added to the base. However i am confident this is made with considerable skill. If possible quiz this chef on the whole process. starting with pre cooking the chicken, and then the way they arrive at the stock. Basically we need a real bir method to make decent chicken stock. I have tried the obvious ideas of adding a carcus, or adding a ladel of stock from boiling a chicken, and its just not bir taste. If the chef can help us with this one thing (making a good chicken stock) i believe we will all benifit hugely.
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Part of the by product of pre cooking chicken is a stock that is added to the base. However i am confident this is made with considerable skill.
I agree it makes sense they could add a by-product of pre-cooked chicken (the liquid. or resultant stock) to the base sauce, even if it would shock most vegetarians. Are vegetarians protected under the law? I guess not unless a BIR declares that a vegetable dish is produced under strict vegetarian conditions.
I disagree that any of this requires more than a pinch of skill, provided you have the recipe, of course. The optimal flavour will no doubt depend on the balance between the relative additions of chicken stock and plain water to the base sauce. A good chef would monitor it via tasting and we'll need to figure out how to do the same, i.e. to determine how much chicken stock to add, which will also depend on how concentrated it is.
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On another site ( i shall not mention the name) many moons ago when it was free they had many base sauces which included stock cubes knorr springs to mind as part of the ingredients. If i remember it was 2 cubes per 2 litres worth of base. And JB your a star. I was very close to getting into a kitchen like yourself but they backed off very quickly and withdrew the offer. So perhaps you will get all the info we are all after.
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DD,
thanks for already making the effort with the carcass.
i am definatley going to put it on hold now, until JB comes up with some clarification on how the chicken bones are used(no pressure then JB ;D).
i think there maybe something in this, like an earlier poster said that gravy always tastes better made out of the juices from the meat.
I do wonder if the same rule of thumb applies to the curry base.
thanks
Alan ;D
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On another site ( i shall not mention the name) many moons ago when it was free they had many base sauces which included stock cubes knorr springs to mind as part of the ingredients.
It was first mentioned here pete. Now if only I could remember the nick of the poster!
Anyway he said they used Knorr stock granules I think, catering style.
I'm getting really bored with all the ooohs and ahhhs for chicken stock and pastes and god knows what. It's old hat. Been there done that.
Ok if you are new to the forum it's new stuff and exciting but ffs...ain't nothing new in this old world!
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DD,
thanks for already making the effort with the carcass.
Already been done to death mate. When I started to watch Malik's webcam I saw them removing, from a medium size pot, what I could only take to be a chicken carcass. The post's on the forum somewhere. Old hat. Boring!
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SS,
been done to death and boring to you mate.
ok like a sheep i will follow your quote and leave well alone. ::)
just because its been debated before does not mean that we should not explore that particular avenue further. like every debate anywhere, sometimes someone picks up on something and it can be constructive or not ,but surely there is no harm in discussing old issues again.
fair enough if it doesnt suit your needs and it may not mine in the end.
but why be patronising in the fact i am a new member?
i do believe it is because your so singular in your thoughts and that you see your knolwedge of the subject to be far superior to everyone under 1000 posts and also i have noticed in my short term on this forum if the topic does not fit into your criteria, therefore you seem to deem it unimportant.
well news to you SS, there are more members than just you regardless of the quantity of posts :o
regards
Alan
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Although this is getting a long way from the real subject of this thread, I am starting to think that perhaps our collective obsession with re-creating the perfect BIR is a little bit anally-retentive. Surely the major breakthrough came with the revelation (by Kris Dhillon and others) that the one thing that differentiates a BIR curry from an authentic Indian curry is that the former derives its texture, and a significant part of its taste, from a base sauce in which finely pureed onion forms a major part, and from the use of an excess of oil when cooking the finished dish. Once we have accepted that, all else is just the icing on the cake : recycled oil, chicken stock, asafoetida (hing), "secret" spices mixes and so on -- all will make a difference, but as (almost) each and every one of us has developed his/her taste for BIR curries by exposure to different restaurants and take-aways, there can be no one recipe that will seem perfect to all. My first exposure to curries came about 45 years ago, and it did not take me long to realise that every Indian restaurant would produce a different flavour for the same name. Similar, yes, but not the same.
So whilst I am as enthusiastic as any member of this forum in wanting to achieve the perfect curry, I no longer believe that "perfect" necessarily means "identical to those served at the Taj of Kent" (today) or "identical to those served in the Maharaja of Chislehurst" (45 years ago). Maybe yesterday's curry, made primarily with rabbit and chicken stock, wasn't identical to a curry from the Taj of Kent. but it was as good, and as tasty, and met all of my criteria for success, the main one being that I wanted to carry on eating the sauce with the chapati long after all the chicken had gone !
** Phil.
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Although this is getting a long way from the real subject of this thread, I am starting to think that perhaps our collective obsession with re-creating the perfect BIR is a little bit anally-retentive. Surely the major breakthrough came with the revelation (by Kris Dhillon and others) that the one thing that differentiates a BIR curry from an authentic Indian curry is that the former derives its texture, and a significant part of its taste, from a base sauce in which finely pureed onion forms a major part, and from the use of an excess of oil when cooking the finished dish. Once we have accepted that, all else is just the icing on the cake : recycled oil, chicken stock, asafoetida (hing), "secret" spices mixes and so on -- all will make a difference, but as (almost) each and every one of us has developed his/her taste for BIR curries by exposure to different restaurants and take-aways, there can be no one recipe that will seem perfect to all. My first exposure to curries came about 45 years ago, and it did not take me long to realise that every Indian restaurant would produce a different flavour for the same name. Similar, yes, but not the same.
So whilst I am as enthusiastic as any member of this forum in wanting to achieve the perfect curry, I no longer believe that "perfect" necessarily means "identical to those served at the Taj of Kent" (today) or "identical to those served in the Maharaja of Chislehurst" (45 years ago). Maybe yesterday's curry, made primarily with rabbit and chicken stock, wasn't identical to a curry from the Taj of Kent. but it was as good, and as tasty, and met all of my criteria for success, the main one being that I wanted to carry on eating the sauce with the chapati long after all the chicken had gone !
** Phil.
Quite true Phil, I think there are too many variations between each BIR to create a 'Universally' perfect curry at home. Rather concentrate on replicating your favourite dish from the local t/a, thats what I'm trying to do.. I cook for 4/6 people on average, often with very good results but I do mess up from time to time and am happy enough to have friends that will try and point out whats missing. Thankfully rare times though :) I was offered to help in the kitchen of our local last Sunday, wish I did but I'd been driving all day and really just wanted to eat then sleep. Next time though maybe, I'll get my little camera on too..
It's all about having fun though aint it.. well for me it is anyway :)
Jb, excellent thread. I'll be trying it out in the next week or so. Good on you for getting into places and being brave enough to do the asking!
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Maybe yesterday's curry, made primarily with rabbit and chicken stock
Rabbit? Where did you get that idea from?
I doubt very much that rabbit has ever seen the inside of any BIR, at any time, past or present.
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Rabbit? Where did you get that idea from? I doubt very much that rabbit has ever seen the inside of any BIR, at any time, past or present.
I fully agree, rabbit is probably completely alien to BIR cuisine. None the less, as I explained when I first mentioned rabbit some weeks ago, the idea came to me when I wanted to make a curry and had no pre-made base sauce; what I did have was the remains of a rabbit pie (rabbit bones, stock, leeks and lemon). I therefore improvised, pureed the leeks in lieu of onions, added sufficient rabbit stock to achieve the desired consistency and then basically followed KD's methodology thereafter. The results were superb -- easily as good as any I have achieved using a purist BIR approach -- and so I now include leeks and rabbit stock in my BIR chef's armoury, to be used whenever appropriate.
** Phil.
P.S. In some parts of the country, wild rabbit probably represents better value (i.e., costs less per pound) than chicken, so I would not entirely rule out the possibility that some of the more rural yet enterprising BIRs have already incorporated rabbit into their recipes.
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jb,
many thanks for comment on the pastes. the balti paste comment is particularly interesting. i've not got balti as close as i'd like. Razor's Kushi Basic Balti and Dipuraja's Balti are the closest i've found. Dipuraja's uses pataks balti paste which i have to say works very well. the idea of adapting the pataks sounds very promising.
the other type of dish i've not got close on is rogan josh. i can't even state a recipe.
ps i'm plucking up courage to taste the pre cooked chicken marinade (ashoka recipe) - something i've not done but feel given your report feel a need if only to put my mind a rest. to be honest i can't see the chicken stock/carcase producing the curry i love. the chicken marinade is a very different kettle of fish - i see it producing a very subtle taste which would not overpower yet has the potential to deliver significant depth of flavour.
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The chicken stock i make is pretty simple really just a chicken carcass, about 2 carrots chopped, one medium onion cut in half and water just covering the whole lot and simmer for about 3 to 4 hours, half way through i smash the carcass up (still in pot) and keep bashing the carcass until the whole thing is in bits. Let the whole thing go cold, you will have roughly 8 chefs ladles of jelly stock and i use 1 chef ladles in my curries and it adds a lot of depth and flavour to the finished curry.
Not a world shattering thing but it works for me.
Jb thanks again for posting all of your recipes.Cheers.
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Not sure about all the excitement with these Pastes :-\ I can understand why a busy BIR would benefit from using them to save time but surely we would get the same results from using the individual ingredients that would go into a paste which is probably what we are using already ???
My mind constantly goes back to watching my and the Wife's Curry being made in our favourite takeaway , I just asked the guy at the counter if there was any chance I could watch my Curry being made ( :o shocked look from the Wife ;D ) and he said yes !
There was nothing ' special ' or any pastes used just the ' normal ' ingredients most of us have been using , their base was simple and the Chef made his own ' Spice Mix ' which had a coarse consistency a bit like Garam Masala to look at ( probably made from ground whole Spices ) but this Curry beats all our other local T/A for flavour but their Bhaji's are crap ! :-\
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I just thought it was clever how they had managed to combine all the necessary ingredients into 1 paste I had never seen that before.The smell from the tikka massala was lovely sitting in the tray.It must have taken him all of two minutes to cook!!!
On the subject of onion bhajis I could have kicked myself for not asking him what he puts in his.Unlike most of the flat,dryish(and tasteless I might add) offerings in some takeaways near me he manages to get his really crispy with a wonderful flavour.I've noted some sort of strange seeds in his before....Another question for my return I think.
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Not sure about all the excitement with these Pastes :-\ I can understand why a busy BIR would benefit from using them to save time but surely we would get the same results from using the individual ingredients that would go into a paste which is probably what we are using already ???
emin-j,
real fundamental question this for me. how long have you got as i could talk this one all day.
for me these are pastes that BIR's make themselves. pataks are pataks for me not pastes.
all we need to know (well for me) is what pastes do they make themselves.
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Base Sauce
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5 large white onions
1 spring onion
3 chillis
small piece of lemon
1 carrot
handfull of coriander leaves and stalks
half a green pepper
small spoon of tomato puree
1/4 of coconut block(this one surprised me)
chef spoon of ginger/garlic paste
1/4 teaspoon each of Cinnamon,coriander,cumin,garam masala(he actually makes his own-I smelt it and it was wonderful)
I've just made this recipe, and it's cooling, before blending
I followed it exactly, but there is no salt
Is that right?
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[Also the chicken bones they have are boiled and the result is also put into the gravy.
At last !! Coroboration that 'home-made' (not commercial) chicken stock is used in BIR. I've banged-on about his many times (My local BIR chef told me he did this), and I do it myself ALL the time. I've mentioned it a few times in posts on this site, and people have questioned it without trying it for themselves. THIS GETS ME CLOSED TO THE BIR TASTE THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE THING!
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Excellent stuff JB! I'll give this base a go tomorrow but I was wondering exactly how much lemon you used in the base. You say a small piece but is that a slice or 1/4 of a whole lemon... can you please clarify?
Cheers,
Del
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Haldi I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure there was no salt,to be honest there was so much going on in the kitchen that I may have missed it.Not much lemon at all,he cut the end of it I'd say about 1 centimetre thick.
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My base went belly up
Something isn't quite right
The onions remained bitter
I think it may be a salt issue (salt turns onions sweet)
The finished base colour was sort of a green as well
It took on the only real colour from the ingredients i.e. the half green pepper
There was a little tomato puree (I used a teaspoon)
This isn't enough to colour it
The spicing I used was the same as the JB home demo
I hope JB tests this at home, and works out where it's different, because I really have high hopes for his recipes
I precooked the potatoes and they really did seem very good
But it got mucked up in the final curry, because of the gravy
The precook method is very similar to Bruce Edwards Curry House Cookery recipe.
It's well worth doing
I'm going to hold on this, until someone else reports in
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The onions remained bitter
The finished base colour was sort of a green as well
It's not the onions, it's too much ginger that causes both of these effects.
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ginger would not cause the bitter taste im afraid
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ps i'm plucking up courage to taste the pre cooked chicken marinade (ashoka recipe) - something i've not done but feel given your report feel a need if only to put my mind a rest. to be honest i can't see the chicken stock/carcase producing the curry i love. the chicken marinade is a very different kettle of fish - i see it producing a very subtle taste which would not overpower yet has the potential to deliver significant depth of flavour.
had a go at this.
i have ~100ml from cooking 2 off breast using the ashoka recipe marinated pre cooked chicken. i baked the residue in the microwave for 5 mins before tasting.
the ashoka recipe produces very good tasting chicken. i also use ifindforu's suggestion of additional spice. i know these ingredients taste exceptionally good before adding the raw chicken.
the question was does the cooking of the chicken in it add anything special and would it be useful in base.
the taste was exceptionally good and far closer for me to anything i call the real deal when compared to stock or using bones. the closest i can describe is a very subtle chicken broth with a spicy slant.
OK so in short it's very good. will it sit well in base. i really don't know. gut feeling is no. i did not get any of this particular taste in the real BIR base i've tasted. that's not to say that BIR's aren't different and i can believe than many BIR do add it. trouble is i'm not sure i'm comparing what jb is describing as i have no red oil in it and feel this is potentially a significant detriment.
i'm going to freeze it and use it in the next base. i personally don't feel i need anything more out of base - my improvement lies in the recipe at frying stage.
should others try it - YES it is so boarderline for me that it's too close to call. the subtleness really does sit well with me.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/34a8422976d3493825c33675b3da605f.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#34a8422976d3493825c33675b3da605f.jpg)
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ginger would not cause the bitter taste im afraid
It does mate! I've done many experiments on this, see my post ages ago 'bitterness in base sauces', after A lot a experiments Ifound the bitterness was caused by too much boiled ginger in the base, NOT THE ONIONS AT ALL!! It is also responsible for the strange greenish colour.
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im afraid your experiments are FLAWED then as ginger is not bitter at ALL
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Hi Gazman,
I'd have to agree with adriandavidb mate, ginger can be bitter if too much is used. I also find this with turmeric. Both ginger and turmeric are both rhizome's, so maybe it's something to do with that fact.
Incidentally, they both help digestion.
Ray :)
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Tumeric has no affect on the flavour when used - ginger is only bitter if NOT cooked properly - thats why i said his method was FLAWED - probably not peeled thinly enough or cooked properly
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Tumeric has no affect on the flavour when used - ginger is only bitter if NOT cooked properly - thats why i said his method was FLAWED - probably not peeled thinly enough or cooked properly
I can assure it was cooked properly: arrogant shit arn't you!
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Believe it or not MATE, you're not the only one who can cook.
I am FULLY aware that the skin on ginger can casue bitterness, in spite of the fact that some think the best flavour is immedialtely under the skin.
I am also FULLY aware how difrerent cooking methods (eg frying rather than boiling) can be used to ameliorate this
ONE OF FIRST THINGS I TRIED WAS REMOVING FAR MORE FLESH UNDER THE SKIN THAN WAS NEEDED.
I really DO NOT appreciate being told my methods are flawed, by some TWAT who just ASSUMES that I don't know what I doing! I tried EVERY possible variable in my bases and THE ONLY one that made a difference was REDUCING the ginger
Get off your high horse!
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I went back to the bombay potato I made with the demo curry base
I know I wasn't happy with the flavour, but aroma of it is incredibly good
Has anyone else given any of these recipes a go yet?
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Tumeric has no affect on the flavour when used (sic)
I'd be surprised if turmeric has no affect on flavour. I find it's most noticeable in dhal. The lentils would never taste the same, if turmeric was not added.
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im not arrogant and dont think i am the only one who can cook - your comments show what kind of person you are with the language you use - most unwelcome but who really cares? certainly not me - if the stuff you cooked WAS bitter then you have obviously went wrong somewhere MR MASTER CHEF ( NOT ) !
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Looking back on my last two posts, you are right, that language was not justified, and for that I'm sorry.
What absolutely galled me however, was that you ASSUMED I didn't know what I was doing without even taking the trouble to ask!!
I could expand at length on what happened, and you could glean something of what I did by reading the thread I started some time ago: 'bitterness in base sauces', if it is still extant.
In a nutshell however, in trials where all other variables were kept constant, I found that bitterness had NOTHING to do with:-
A) Not enough salt in the base making process.
B) Inconsistancy in quality of ingredients (repeatable results with different batches of veg)
C) Ginger used with skin; without skin, & without skin and without a 5mm layer of flesh immediatley under the skin.
I ultimately found that an excess of ginger gives a flavour that many would discribe as bitter, but is probably an artifact caused by the preponderance of ginger interacting with the other flavours present (certainly 'bitter' to me). these flavours were never evident in the final dishes cooked with these bases, either corrected (proabably by the excess ginger elements being 'fried-off'), or perhaps disguised by the overall flavour of the finished dish. However it was markely detrimental to the flavour of the base itself.
Perhaps becasue I am so self-critical of my efforts, I try to produce a base that stands the test of being served on its own a a spicy soup! If it does that, it's good.
Reducing ginger in a 'boiled' base; or reducing its impact by frying it first completely cured the problem.
I could go on for several more paragraphs about EXACTLY what I tried, but you are likely I think, to still remain with the impression that you know best!
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I can assure it was cooked properly: arrogant shit arn't you!
Pot calling the kettle black there adriadavidb. I seem to recall you telling me I couldn't cook...not so nice when it's fired back at you is it? ;D
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I try to produce a base that stands the test of being served on its own a a spicy soup! If it does that, it's good.
Another good point and I genuinely don't know the answer to this one - I can't make my mind up. Is base a simple ingredient which can only be assessed in conjunction with the final curry or, if the base tastes good, like nice soup, will that always bode well for the final curry?
Has anyone tried tasting dried or fresh yeast? I doubt if it's pleasant at all, but freshly baked bread is normally very nice. Does this sort of argument apply to base sauce, or not?
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I try to produce a base that stands the test of being served on its own a a spicy soup! If it does that, it's good.
Another good point and I genuinely don't know the answer to this one - I can't make my mind up. Is base a simple ingredient which can only be assessed in conjunction with the final curry or, if the base tastes good, like nice soup, will that always bode well for the final curry?
Has anyone tried tasting dried or fresh yeast? I doubt if it's pleasant at all, but freshly baked bread is normally very nice. Does this sort of argument apply to base sauce, or not?
Being able to serve a base as a stand alone dish is, I suppose, no bad thing but I absolutely disagree that a tasty base is a neccessity for a tasty curry.
In adrandavidb's previous post he even admits to making a 'bitter' base which then was used to make adequate curries because the bitterness was balanced by the final cooking in the curry.
I've said it before and I'll say it again (and again), a delicious base is NOT a prerequisite of a tasty curry and to judge a base by its flavour on its own is terribly misguided.
That's not to say that if you make a real pigs ear of the base that you will always be able to make a good curry...it's all matter of balance between the base and the curry!
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I try to produce a base that stands the test of being served on its own a a spicy soup! If it does that, it's good.
Another good point and I genuinely don't know the answer to this one - I can't make my mind up. Is base a simple ingredient which can only be assessed in conjunction with the final curry or, if the base tastes good, like nice soup, will that always bode well for the final curry?
Has anyone tried tasting dried or fresh yeast? I doubt if it's pleasant at all, but freshly baked bread is normally very nice. Does this sort of argument apply to base sauce, or not?
Being able to serve a base as a stand alone dish is, I suppose, no bad thing but I absolutely disagree that a tasty base is a neccessity for a tasty curry.
In adrandavidb's previous post he even admits to making a 'bitter' base which then was used to make adequate curries because the bitterness was balanced by the final cooking in the curry.
I've said it before and I'll say it again (and again), a delicious base is NOT a prerequisite of a tasty curry and to judge a base by its flavour on its own is terribly misguided.
That's not to say that if you make a real pigs ear of the base that you will always be able to make a good curry...it's all matter of balance between the base and the curry!
I quite agree with you SS, a tasty base is not necessarily a prerequesite for a good curry, I say so above; it's just a benchmark I use to assess the quality of my bases, besides it does actually make a great soup!!
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I can assure it was cooked properly: arrogant shit arn't you!
Pot calling the kettle black there adriadavidb. I seem to recall you telling me I couldn't cook...not so nice when it's fired back at you is it? ;D
Ouch, are you sure SS? My recollection of those posts was different, but I'm quite willing to eat humble pie if I'm wrong! :)
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Where is this takeaway that you went to JB?
How many miles from Nottingham?
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Where is this takeaway that you went to JB?
How many miles from Nottingham?
Quite a way I'm afraid,junction 31 off the M25 into deepest Essex,not far from the big Lakeside shopping centre.
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Quite a way I'm afraid,junction 31 off the M25 into deepest Essex,not far from the big Lakeside shopping centre.
That's a shame
I'd have gone with you
Have you had a bash, with the recipes at home yet?
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Not yet I have a lot going on at the moment.Hesitant to give it a go to be honest I don't want to be disappointed but I'll have a bash soon.I've just noticed that the method of precooking vegetables in the curry crunch book(page 16) is quite similar ingredients wise to the bombay potato recipe I was shown in the takeaway.
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Another good point and I genuinely don't know the answer to this one - I can't make my mind up. Is base a simple ingredient which can only be assessed in conjunction with the final curry or, if the base tastes good, like nice soup, will that always bode well for the final curry?
George,
a threshold "characteristics" exist and after that the base itself has little impact on the final dish. i don't think we've ever debated what the threshold characteristics are (and why they matter so much).
i am sure i'm in agreement with Secret Santa although i find it hard to describe base in terms of "tasty". a base has to taste good but it's a long way off being a finished curry.
these were my thoughts on the real BIR base i tasted.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3607.msg32420#msg32420 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3607.msg32420#msg32420)
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made this base tonight (JB'S), smells and taste very good but for me the coconut over powers it a bit ,very creamy as JB's pics look like, i find it strange that i use the same amount of coconut block in my melt base gravy and the coconut has no dominant flavour in my base (simalar quantiities of oil, water and ingreidiants used).
I'm yet to cook a dish with this and think the base will be exellent for a korma (not my fav dish) but i will experiment.
i did add additonal salt, tsp termeric, 3 cardomon pods + 1 naga chilli ( i get a bit carried away sometimes), i also scooped of some reddish oil from the base for my tikka marinade, i will let you know how i get on.
fishy
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I also tried this base as well as the Madras to spec.
The base was moorish and creamy. A little pale in colour to the usual bases I have made. While it was definitely tasty, I found the base more bland than my usuals. I put this down to the very minimal spicing.
The Madras was good (some measurements were missing from the recipe JB gave, so I used typical measurements from previous Madras recipes). However it was noticeably less hot than usual (used 1.5tsp of extra hot chilli powder) and spicing was not as robust as usual. Tasty meal nonetheless.
My conclusion is that this base and Madras recipe is authentic BIR. I do wonder about the ingredient ratios in the base (esp the spices) and if the chef scaled down slightly off. The finished Madras also could have suffered from lack of specific measurements.
Good stuff JB, please keep it coming.
Cheers,
Josh
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So now we have direct evidence that what they teach you is not exactly what they do themselves!
This has always been suspected when others have had similar demonstrations but has never been proved.
This alone has made your report worth its weight in gold jb. Well done.
I fear you might be right. Here's my guess to the approach which is likely to be used by some of the BIRs: They realise there might be a bit of goodwill and extra revenue to be gained by giving lessons in the kitchen. It's still good of them. If a restaurant serves food which is way above average in terms of its fine taste, are they really going to give away those secrets (to us and other restaurants)? I don't think so but it's not necessary in order to give a lesson. Unless you watch them prepare the day's main base (gallons) for the actual restaurant, they can dumb-down the demo base to remove any special touches. They don't even need to be too careful getting the base down to just 5 onions, rather than a sack load. Spicing may be guessed, also. They know that no measure is too critical is you just want to produce an average base.
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i made a naga chicken recently with this base and have to say it was superb, close to my fav bir's and as good as some others, the recipe is simular to madras but using naga's instead, finely chopped onion, pepper and one naga (naga added later stage).
This is the first base i have tried from cr0 so i can't compare it with other's on the site, previously i have used kris dillon and the melt base(from another site) all good but JB's is the best ive tried so far, concidering saffron base next, anybody using JB's base at present? and what are your results.
atb
fishy
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i made a naga chicken recently with this base and have to say it was superb, close to my fav bir's
fishy
Hi Fishy
What spice mix are you using?
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i use:
8 tsp turmeric
6 curry pwdr
5 coriander pwdr
4 cumin
2 garlic
2 garam masala
1 ginger
Fishy
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i rate parker21's mouchak mix powder - it's put an end to my journey on spice - i can't see a need to use anything else. really well taken to it.
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Solarspice no problems having you(or anyone) along.It would be great to have another pair of eyes with me!!!As I said the place is your bog standard takeaway you can find up an down the country,no frills but certainly big on taste with that elusive flavour.For some reason the guys are quite keen to share their secrets it's such as shame that other places are not so willing.The wife said I was grinning like a cheshire cat when I walked in last night.
JB if you are planning on visting the Preema anytime soon and would like some company, let me know. I'm only about 15 mins drive from East Tilbury and would love to come along.