Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on October 03, 2010, 07:23 PM
-
i've wrestled with "chopped onion" at frying stage for some time. in the past i've tried pre cooking and for quite a while now i've used raw believing this to be what BIR's do.
in short i now think chopped onions need to be pre cooked. the question is how do BIR's pre cook them - in water "par boil" or in oil "par fry".
background:
Beaver's post put me onto a video of garlic chicken which i think i'd seen in a previous post or on utube and have cooked before http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5036.msg48310#msg48310 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5036.msg48310#msg48310)
had one almighty disaster last night sort of copy cat cooking it.
i got carried away (did not follow the recipe) adding g/g paste right at the start before the chef spoon of garlic slithers.
i am already well aware of what happens when u over cook g/g paste - becomes sticky and forms black debris very quickly. i generally as a precaution actually add the g/g paste as the oil heats up to prevent this.
anyhow the heat to cook the slithers and then the onion wrecked the pan - full of black debris around the rim. had to clean it in service for the 1st time ever.
this really knocked me off my pace. i started the dish off again but realised i had used the mix powder and needed to fetch more. i left the garlic slithers/onion in the hot oil off the heat and journeyed off to the kitchen.
on return the onion was translucent (not caramelised) and much better cooked than i normally achieve.
the end result was a notch up towards BIR. i've known for a while that more oil (say 6 tbsp c/w my norm 4 tbsp) achieves closer to BIR but had not established why. i now believe it's down to somehow cooking the onion better.
trouble is to cook within BIR times even using the extra oil i can't see the onions cooking out to the same extent. i now can't help questioning that BIR's like other ingredients use pre "part" cooked chopped onion.
the question is how. dellydel's post on his demo is very relevant. this suggests pre fry in oil. this is certainly a strong contender given the demo.
can anyone else confirm this as i'd like to put the alternative of a quick par boil out of the equation (this being a much easier process given the volumes a BIR must get through)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4329.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4329.0)
-
forgot to add pic
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/c2c086b9d318ec855ce23400787934ac.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#c2c086b9d318ec855ce23400787934ac.jpg)
-
hi jerry you have to remember that the onions in a bir will have been sitting out in a warm kitchen for quite a while, and may have been blanched for 1 min in hot water or sprinkled with salt to draw out the moisture then drain and washed to get off the salt therefore changing the texture of the onion. the undercover curry book suggests this when making the onion bhajis. the onion salad will have the same treatment with the addition of a little lemon juice/dressing. hope this is worth a try?
regards
gary :)
-
Hi JerryM ,
I am always impressed with your determination for BIR perfection ;) I ' experiment ' myself most Saturday's when cooking our Curries and last night added 1/4 tsp Cardamom powder and 1/4 tsp of Cloves powder but no gain :( I just cant help thinking back to watching my Madras being made at our favourite T/A just the usual G/G , Spice Mix, Chilli powder , bit of fresh Coriander and their Curry Base and the Madras was fantastic and unlike some of our other T/A we have never had a bad Curry !
I really believe this missing 5 % is in the Oil whether it's in the Base Gravy the final Curry or both . Before we had our first Indian Curry we used to buy Chinese and really enjoyed all the food from the one we used and we used to cook our own Chinese style foods sometimes but could never anywhere near match the flavour of the T/A . The whole family tried to fathom out what this ' special ' flavour was that we couldn't emulate , then it struck me ! ::) Everything we had from this T/A had this wonderful flavour - even the Chips ! It had to be the Oil :o Keep up the good work Jerry ;)
-
Jerry you are a giant amongst us as you search for perfection. I have a meeting in Glasgow with a very popular owner of one of the city's top BIRs and not an Ashoka. I will ask whether they pre cook and ask how they do so with the onions. It occurs to me too that I may be able to ask a small list of questions, so if you and any of the others want to help with a wee list I will see what comes about. I also still have a mobile no for the actual Ashoka Head Chef back when I visited. I will text to see whether he can take a call on the matter or even just text me back an answer. Thanks for helping us all reach for higher results though there can't be much more to climb
-
Jerry,
As you mention on my demo the onions and peppers come out of a pot where they have been pre fried in oil and turmeric. These onions and peppers were finely sliced about 1" long, similar to the way the onions are chopped for the salad to go with poppadoms. Normally a large chefs spoon is added to the pan on relevant dishes and warmed through. However, with regards to dishes with large slices of onion in eg. Korai, I'm not sure, but to me the large onion and peppers have a smokey taste, almost like they have been roasted or grilled over flames!
-
interesting stuff as always from you all.
easy one 1st. spiced oil is a key piece of the jigsaw for me. yes u can use clean veg oil. if u want that extra mile it's got to be oil from the base. the base needs whole spice in it to work the magic though. the chef at my local TA starts every dish with oil scooped off the top of the base pot - that's enough evidence for me.
i have tried in the past pre part cooking the chopped onion (~3mm sq). i've tried both oil (spiced) and water.
the oil method was simply 1 or 2 tbsp in the wok on high heat and a very quick stir fry - 2 to 3 mins - all u are aiming at is to get it up to temperature and then let it continue to cook as it cools - u're certainly only looking to part cook it.
this produced very good results.
the water method was to drop the onion into boiling water containing 1 tsp turmeric and 1/4 tsp salt then simmer 5 mins and drain immediately. recollection was that this produced comparable results but was far easier on the effort. with hindsight i would now look to simmer for 3 mins topps.
i somehow got off doing this pre cook (probably when i switched to the bigger heat). i am now certain BIR's pre cook and it makes a difference. i'd just like to adopt the method closest to what BIR's use.
i am pretty sure the large slices dellydel refers to are fried from raw to produce the smokey taste they have - it seems easier when cooking them to get the edges "burnt" and to know that when they start to break up they are cooked.
-
i had 2 portions of base in the fridge and could not resist trying the pre cook out.
i made 2 portions of onion (ea x1.5 medium onion) and cooked using the 2 different methods.
there was no discernible difference in the finished dish between the 2 methods. i feel the par boil is easier to do and have adopted as std going fwd. i used 3 mins simmer after it came back to the boil which i feel was too short and will use the original 5 mins simmer going fwd.
the other thing to mention if u intend to use the pre cook is the timing for ending the onion cooking during the dish frying ie when u cook the pre cooked in the curry. when u add the onion to the oil it initially seems to dry up the oil. u then need to keep cooking the onion on full wack until the oil starts to re appear - u are looking for the onions to become translucent but it ain't easy to decide when but the appearance of the oil is much easier to spot. it takes quite a long time - far more than the 45 secs in the video - something like x2. this extra cooking is crucial to getting the moorish taste in the finished dish.
LH fried, RH boiled
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/4b2d6b616d40b11653d11cbc1608c90a.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#4b2d6b616d40b11653d11cbc1608c90a.jpg)
finished dishes (further sort of copy cat's of the garlic chicken)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/4ab049a667849bf21a92da729e908e4b.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#4ab049a667849bf21a92da729e908e4b.jpg)
-
Jerry, outstanding work, go straight to the top of the class, thanks for this.PP
-
go straight to the top of the class
it demonstrates to me how far we "CRO members " have collectively come - i made this dish a good while ago and it's startling now how different it tastes.
this could not of been achieved without everyone's views and help etc.
-
2 out of 3 mains i cooked last night called for chopped onion (976bar Kashmiri & Admins Jalfrezi).
i pre cooked as stated above using the "par boil" method ie simmer 5 mins after the pan had returned to the boil.
last time i cooked i used 4tbsp (1 chef) of oil and the 5 min par boil worked a treat (as we all know the amount of oil being critical to the BIR output). last night i reduced the oil to 3 tbsp to gauge the envelop of the 5 min par boil onion. it was clear that that the onion took far too long to cook out during the frying stage (the g/g paste was starting to become far too sticky).
consequently i have increased the par boil time from 5 to 10 mins for the next go.
-
JerryM , cant help thinking the sauce in your Curries look a bit ' Lumpy ' :-\ I think larger pieces of Onion are part of the ingredients in say a Dopiaza ( thin slices ) and they look quite decorative in their larger size , perhaps you could try slicing your Onion some hours before you need to cook them , I've been doing this lately for making my Bhaji's and the Onion goes really soft and releases a fair bit of liquid and I think they then would fry quicker and easier , alternatively , I have been trying more ' Curries from scratch ' lately and following the Onion frying stage I have been putting the fried Onions through the blender this creates a lovely smooth sauce which just needs simmering with the other Curry ingredients to make a lovely Curry.
-
emin-j,
the "lumpy" may be down to pepper or banana - these are the only lumpy ingredients i add at frying. the sauce is very smooth - i make sure i grind all the spices going into the base sufficiently and the cheapo handblender does work a treat on blending the base. i also cook base for 4 hrs now as std (was 3hrs).
ps as an example the Heswall Tandoori kashmiri was almost identical to my take on it (thanks to 976bars inspiration)
it's the 3mm sq size chopped onion that you get in quite a few dishes that i'm very much interested in. what i've noticed in side by side comparison was that the BIR although still having texture were much more moorish than mine (it's quite a critical factor that i had previously overlooked).
when i had the breakthrough earlier in this post i realised this difference was down to the BIR onion being cooked more. i also realised that this "extra" cooking could not be achieved at the frying stage as easily as the BIR does. this for me this was conclusive proof that BIR's pre cook the "chopped" onion in some way. i've settled on par boiling. i am now fine tuning how long to pre cook (to make sure i get consistency).
an alternative as you say would be to salt them as i think Panpot 1st alerted us to in Bhajis making. i know the general concensus "IG" has moved away from this. i am however still a convert and soften the onion for bhajis in exactly the way Panpot described. i am well pleased that you are also having success in the approach.
i must admit i haven't tried the bhaji softening method for "making" chopped onion for dish frying. it's a definite possibility and will keep it as back up in case the par boil method does not deliver (although from experience so far i believe it does).
in general terms i am now very happy with my mains - i see only a need for recipe refinement going forward.
best wishes.
-
Still as keen as ever eh JerryM :) Could you increase the amount of Onion in your Base Sauce to give the same result ? Referring to the ' Undercover Curry ' Base which has a high percentage of Onions compared to other Base's.
Keep up the good work JerryM ;)
-
emin-j,
the amount of onion in the base is very important - far more needed than is initially perceived. i work on 100g raw onion per 300ml portion of finished base (same as Dipuraja). in getting a real BIR base and dragging the back of a spoon across a small amount it was very clear that whilst a base needs to be "thin" it's not actually watery.
the chopped onion at dish frying is very different to the onion in the base in terms of the effect on the dish. for example i'd expect to find chopped onion in say a chicken madras but not in a CTM.
-
i'd expect to find chopped onion in say a chicken madras but not in a CTM.
I wouldn't even expect to see chopped onion in a madras. Obviously down to regional variation again.
-
I wouldn't even expect to see chopped onion in a madras.
I'm used to having "plain curry" and "Madras" mains listed on the menu. the plain curry would be just plain sauce. the madras similar but more delux version including chopped onion and probably a little green pepper. just shows how difficult our objective is. even more when you add in that you can have the plain curry madras hot. circles or what.
-
consequently i have increased the par boil time from 5 to 10 mins for the next go.
tried out the 10 mins and confirmed spot on. i continue to add a little turmeric as this seems to cut down on that cooking onion smell reminiscent of KD1 base.
-
Jerry. I tend to follow much if not all of your input here and genuinely value all I am learning from you just as I do with others too. I wondered whether it makes sense for you to post elsewhere your now definitive recipe or approach to pre cooked onion as this type of conclusion coming out over what can be a lengthy thread can get lost on all of us unless we are reading and remembering everything on the site. Just a thought. PP
-
Panpot,
always pleased to see you posting and obviously enjoying our mutual curry passion.
post done as requested.
best wishes,
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5129.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5129.0)
-
Cheers Jerry. PP
-
2 out of 3 mains i cooked last night called for chopped onion (976bar Kashmiri & Admins Jalfrezi).
i pre cooked as stated above using the "par boil" method ie simmer 5 mins after the pan had returned to the boil.
last time i cooked i used 4tbsp (1 chef) of oil and the 5 min par boil worked a treat (as we all know the amount of oil being critical to the BIR output). last night i reduced the oil to 3 tbsp to gauge the envelop of the 5 min par boil onion. it was clear that that the onion took far too long to cook out during the frying stage (the g/g paste was starting to become far too sticky).
consequently i have increased the par boil time from 5 to 10 mins for the next go.
Hi JerryM , Just re-read this and now realise the ' little bits' are chopped Onion as intended , doh !
Adding chopped Onion at final frying stage would take too long to cook down as you have said and I wondered if you could pre-fry the Onion and keep a container of it in the fridge sort of Bunjarra style.
-
I wondered if you could pre-fry the Onion and keep a container of it in the fridge
emin-j,
the pre fry in oil does work. particularly well if using reclaimed oil. i just use the par boil in water down to ease & health. if cooking for others i do pre fry though and not par boil.
i tend to make and use same day but feel would keep in fridge for upto 3 days - especially given it's going to be cooked in anger so to speak even though it is pre cooked.
-
Jerry
Completely agree on need to get onions right. Its Ok for finely chopped onions, as they will fry quickly. Look at Dipu's vid where after G/G, its almost throw everything in the pan. However, my favourite is a Dopiaza, and round my way, this is served with really chunky onion quarters (that would have been golf ball size before quartered). Now if these were fried in the standard TA cooking time, I reckon only the outer 3 layers will be cooked and the centre raw. I often wondered how such large on chunks could be so sweet and cooked through.
The answer really is the precooking. A mate of mine showed me how he "poaches" the onions in a gravy/water mix, for about 20 mins. They are allowed to cool in the liquor for another 15 mins. After that, they can be drained and set aside. This seems to have the benefit of softening and removing the bitterness. When introduced to the pan at cooking stage, it is for re-heating purposes, so in just before chicken/meat. Also, as well soaked, less likely to burn. So may be worth experimenting with poaching times and gravy/onion ratios(depending on onion size). This should have the benefit of avoiding burnings, reduce cooking time and have a more predictable result.
-
telecaster445,
i use the pre cook only for the fine chopped - as i've never been able to cook them good enough during the frying from raw. if i want what i call slices of onion i don't pre cook and fry them from raw - to give a different texture - more crunchy.
i've not tried onion quarters - i guess i would treat them like sliced onion.
your idea of the dopiaza is a good example to explain it. i would use both pre cooked and sliced in this dish to give a moorish (pre cooked) but crunchy texture (raw slices).
the pre cook is exactly what you are calling poaching. i've heard it called blanching also.
best wishes,
-
Jerry Hi
Blanching is really quickly immersing in boiling water, for a very short time. poaching is slowly cooking in less than boiling liquid. I guess different results.
cheers
-
Jerry,just a thought... the large chunks of onion actually may be soft for a different reason. As the curry house I referred to is a takeaway, there has been time for the onions to sit in the hot sauce. So by the time I have collected, got the meal back, unpacked, cracked open a beer, 20 mins may have elapsed since the onions hit the pan. So they may not needed to have been pre-cooked. Perhaps we should let a curry "rest"
-
telecaster445,
no problems on your definitions - i'm no chef for sure.
the "sitting" time is important. in this time the dish taste does change for the better. i've timed it at 5 mins max.
the pre cook may not be for everyone. it really was a piece of the jigsaw for me. i originally thought i was not cutting the onion small enough and then thought i was not getting the same size consistently both in a batch and across batches.
the pre cook has simplified it all for me. of course you don't need chopped onion in all dishes either.
for those who remember the earlier discussion - i still use Bobby Bhuna's technique for chopping the onion (cut onion in half, pull dead skins off, leave the stalk on till the end of cutting).