Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: solarsplace on August 02, 2010, 01:26 PM
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Hi
Over the weekend, I was able to acquire a portion of 'curry sauce' as they called it, from my favourite local TA.
Just posting a picture of the sauce and a description as it was quite unlike any base that I have made from this site or any book.
I got some REALLY funny looks when I asked for it too :o - they did not really have any idea what a 'base sauce' was, but after a small chat, we all established that it was the plain as it comes from the cooking pot 'curry sauce' that I was after.
It almost seems that their base could be made in two parts. There is an absolutely perfectly smooth blended body to the base, then it seems an addition of sweet small slithers of onion are added as an addition. There was also the odd fragment of coriander leaf floating about in it too.
Other than that, the base was perfectly uniform in colour and after a night in the fridge only a minute trace of oil formed around the top sides of the sauce.
In flavour the base is like sweet chicken and sweetcorn soup with a spice mix added, but incredably moorish. When sampling the dish and trying to work out what was in there it was near impossible not to just gobble up the whole lot, and that is something no other base has made me feel compelled to do.
TBH - I have no real idea what is in there, but I am sure they use most of the usual stuff like potatoes, carrot and peppers. However, between three people who have now tasted the base we all thought there was a good amount of sweetcorn in there too. It probably wasn't, but it tasted like it.
Made a tremendously lovely curry. Not sure if it actually had the taste or not, but it was tremendous. Some left in the fridge for another opinion tonight.
Cheers all
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/527b4421029a804256317b04dabe6463.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#527b4421029a804256317b04dabe6463.jpg)
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I've had several base sauces, and a few of them have been extremely tasty
They have had a brilliant balance of flavour
No known ingredient, I could exactly put my finger on
Somehow the combination creates a totally new taste
And these chefs create this base every couple of days
Genius
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Our local T/A's Curries are very Orangey in colour but have a nice light consistency and flavour , funny thing is their Bhaji's have ' that taste ' aswell , any ideas what could produce this Orangey colour in both ? I know food colouring is used in some T/A to give the Onions in Bhaji's that Orangey colour but it's exactly the same colour as their Curries .
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It almost seems that their base could be made in two parts. There is an absolutely perfectly smooth blended body to the base, then it seems an addition of sweet small slithers of onion are added as an addition. There was also the odd fragment of coriander leaf floating about in it too.
Did you see it being transferred from the large pot into the carton with no chance of anything being added in between? I'm convinced that a take away place added stuff out of eye shot, the only time I've ever asked for a portion of base gravy.
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I'm gonna take a guess and suggest it wasn't sweetcorn in your base and there's one way of finding out as no matter how well it is pureed, you digestive system can't break sweetcorn down (if you get my meaning).
I wonder could the sweet taste come from carrots perhaps?
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Hi All
Thanks for the reply and ideas.
No, I did not actually see them take the sauce from anywhere. It was brought out (very quickly) from behind semi-closed doors. However at the same time, I got a Vindaloo from them too and you could taste the exact same flavor coming through in that with the onion slithers too - absolutely delicious. So I'm convinced beyond reasonable doubt that it was the real deal.
It is also highly probable that sweetcorn was not an ingredient at all. I must confess, checking for the digestion of any sweetcorn is taking the investigation a little too far ;) - a very clever suggestion though.
Carrots, yes maybe used in a large quantity would account for the colour and sweetness. Not really a 'carroty' taste coming through, but I suppose that could be affected by all the other ingredients.
Anyway, TBH, we will probably never know. I was just very surprised to find a sauce that was so different from the ones I have tried in all the books and on this site.
cheers all.
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Another fantastic post and sharing of info (Thanks on the cooking lessons thread too).
Looking at this I can say without doubt my bases are different. Full of flavor but nothing like that consistency at all.
One thing I find common in all my Indian food is as stated. That Onion bahjis flavor in most dishes. I think I've said several times now if I could get that taste from the sauce etc...............
The other common note is the RED oil. I find it in everything.
Thoughts.
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I take it everyone else's home made base sauce looks just like that then?
Red oil outline extremely thin but loaded with Turmeric?
I'm thinking not but I'm surprised at the lack of feedback from our cultured cooks folks, come on please................
You see?
Maybe not? This is it partly. At least in what most here yearn for, BIR style. Incidentally is does look like that NEW Indian Kitchen is in fact an American Indian Kitchen. What I see are Mexican cooks, could be wrong, and nothing wrong with Mexican cooks either. All is relative, even spices are not so different.
So............ Does your base look anything like this? Please be honest and use you eyes yeah? Mine don't. They are good, very good, but like that.
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Hi
Well, I for one, can reiterate, that I have never produced a base like this one. Not even close.
I just made a generic curry with the portion I was given because I was trying to be minimal on the additional spices and to try and let the qualities of this base be easier to identify.
The curry it produced was absolutely superb. Now, I am very hesitant to say it was just like the real thing, and it had all the qualities and the taste, lets just leave it as, it was excellent for now. Although, I could not be bothered to wash up that night, and the following morning the smell in the kitchen from the pan and plates was absolutely beautiful. (Although it was actually cooked outside on a high heat).
However, there is a key difference here, this base has (and this is where we fall into difficulties trying to describe taste with words) body, mid-tones, depth.
Thickness, watery-ness, the viscosity of the base aside, the flavor has a good warm depth to it. Like a good bottle of red, of the sound of a Gibson Les Paul compared to a Fender Strat, some bases just come out 'thin' in taste, this one was very full bodied.
Admin's base is the only one I have tried that has produced a smooth deep bodied flavor that is slightly like this one (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1894.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1894.0)) although the coloring was a million miles away - going to make that one again now I have reminded myself :)
Also, interesting to read in jb's thread about his chef saying they used to add a whole Chicken into their base. Well, as I said in the first post, the base reminded me of spiced Chicken and sweetcorn soup....
Who knows.
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solarsplace,
had not seen this post. well pleased you have taken this step.
i firmly believe carrot is an essential ingredient. i rate it more than pepper.
the "large" pieces is something i did not find in the base from my local TA. their's looked very similar to yours with this exception.
for me you get this colour from a longer cooking than is typically stated on the site ie 45 mins won't do it.
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hi solar sorry for not replying sooner, the debris in the base could come from a spice/garlic/tom puree tarka, this is the method told to me by the chef at mouchak, it could also be debris from curry dish making, non-cleaned spoon. having tasted bases in 3 kitchens i know what you mean by the moorishness. if i ever have any vindaloo sauce left from a takeaway from mouchak i add it to my finished dish and then it smells the kitchen out just like being in the mouchak kitchen or my car on the 5 mile journey home yum!
hope this helps
regards
gary :)
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hi solar sorry for not replying sooner, the debris in the base could come from a spice/garlic/tom puree tarka, this is the method told to me by the chef at mouchak, it could also be debris from curry dish making, non-cleaned spoon. having tasted bases in 3 kitchens i know what you mean by the moorishness. if i ever have any vindaloo sauce left from a takeaway from mouchak i add it to my finished dish and then it smells the kitchen out just like being in the mouchak kitchen or my car on the 5 mile journey home yum!
hope this helps
regards
gary :)
Hi Gary
Reply very much appreciated, and very interesting!
Having obtained this curry sauce twice now, I get the feeling the particles / slithers for want of a better word are deliberate. I look into what you said though!
Regards ;D
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the real bir base i once purchased and cooked with, did nothing to lead me closer to the taste. My curries tasted much the same as normal. i can only conclude all real bir bases are very different beasts. this supports my theory that all bir chefs arrive at a different style of cooking by there own trials and errors and skill. I remember the chef at my local described 2 process when making base. 1) was adding the chicken stock from the pre cooking of chicken. 2) was making a tom puree and oil and garlic fried paste (with other spices i expect) then adding this to the boiled onion at a later stage. He said it was very important. Its a bit like the method when making a kd1 base, where you add the tomato towards the middle of base cooking. I always adopt this approach of making the base in 2 parts , before a final slow simmer. it is important and helps improve the final curry massively.
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Its a bit like the method when making a kd1 base, where you add the tomato towards the middle of base cooking. I always adopt this approach of making the base in 2 parts , before a final slow simmer. it is important and helps improve the final curry massively.
I found it quite interesting to learn from KD2 (New Curry Secret) that Kris now says that the tomato, turmeric, paprika, etc. can be added pre-blending if one does not mind one's blender getting spice-stained ("If you want to speed things up ..., simply add the spices, tomato paste and canned tomatoes to the onions ... just before adding the water").
I haven't tried this, of course, not wanting to end up with a spice-stained blender and an irate wife !
** Phil.
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i wouldnt listen to much to kds opinions. cr0 members know alot more. for a start adding tomato or tomato puree to early can lead to sour taste in base. I always add tomato puree or tomato late in base making process. as advised by a real bir chef. 2ndly adding spices early is not my favoured apprach, i prefer to let the onions cook in the oil for 40 minutes with garlic etc, then add spices. this avoids spices losing flavour from too much boiling in water. it often weakens the spice flavour in a bad way. I aim for a rich orange base, by adding tumeric and paprika quite late. they need about 30 mins on slow simmer to release the flavour. I dont add these at the start ever. Just my opinions from 4 years of experimenting. kd also over does the ginger and onion amounts. too much onion leads to a sickly taste in a base. this took me a year to realise. reduce the onion and add some green pepper. this creates a dark flavour in a the base , and makes for an interesting final curry.
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i wouldnt listen to much to kds opinions. cr0 members know alot more.
I don't dispute that, collectively or individually, we may well know as much as Kris Dhillon, but I would be very surprised if we knew more, since we lack her heritage.
for a start adding tomato or tomato puree to early can lead to sour taste in base. I always add tomato puree or tomato late in base making process. as advised by a real bir chef. 2ndly adding spices early is not my favoured apprach, i prefer to let the onions cook in the oil for 40 minutes with garlic etc, then add spices. this avoids spices losing flavour from too much boiling in water. it often weakens the spice flavour in a bad way. I aim for a rich orange base, by adding tumeric and paprika quite late. they need about 30 mins on slow simmer to release the flavour. I dont add these at the start ever. Just my opinions from 4 years of experimenting. kd also over does the ginger and onion amounts. too much onion leads to a sickly taste in a base. this took me a year to realise. reduce the onion and add some green pepper. this creates a dark flavour in a the base , and makes for an interesting final curry.
These are all interesting observations, and I thank you for publishing them; I shall certainly bear them in mind when making my next batch of base.
** Phil.
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glad to be of help phil . if you dont yet feel cr0 offers more info than a kd book, i think you have not dug deep enough into cr0 huge library of info. I must admit its overwhelming , but collectively there is enough info here to produce curries 3 times as good as any found in the pages of a kd book. or any bir cookery book i know of. The members on this forum go into a much finer detail of the art of bir cookery. KD books are not aimed at this type of audience. they are really for novices. for that purpose they are good books well worth buying.
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if you dont yet feel cr0 offers more info than a kd book, i think you have not dug deep enough into cr0 huge library of info.
Ah, clearly a misunderstanding here : I was not suggesting that there is not far more to be found here on CR0 than in any KD book; I am certain that there is. What I was suggesting is that we, both as individuals and collectively, are unlikely to know more than Kris herself, simply because we do not have the benefit of her Punjabi heritage.
** Phil.
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Phil i really have to disagree. i purchased her original book and made many curries, none came close to bir. in fact they tasted rather odd. When i compared them to some of the wonderful traditional indian recipes i was making at the time (from other books) i concluded kris dillon had no real mastery of the art of bir cooking. If someone writes a book on a subject and it does not deliver the goods, it is a strong indication that their underlying knowledge is lacking. Surely someone with a long heritage behind them would have no problem writing a book which at least manages to replicate a few key bir dishes eg madras, or rogan josh or tikka masalla. all of these recipes from the original book were nothing like a real bir dish. So i am unclear why you feel she has some long heritage of bir cookery knowledge. I am of the opinion kris is more of a business women/author/casual cook, with links in the cookery business. The kd books are a clever money spinner, but i see little evidence of a wealth of heritage and cooking knowledge passed through generations. Even the kd base needs modifying to become acceptable. I would be more forgiving if just one recipe in that book stood the test of time. but alas on closer inspection none of those recipes are special , and part of my favourite repetoire. Explain what you mean by punjabi heritage? do you mean cooking knowlege ? where is the evidence of this cookery knowledge kris has from this heritage?
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A big problem with the KD1 book is the use of her garam masala as the main spice mix for most of the curries.
I don't think you would ever get close to BIR if you followed her recipes to the letter.
Paul
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Phil i really have to disagree. i purchased her original book and made many curries, none came close to bir. in fact they tasted rather odd.
OK, here our experiences differ, Derek : I made her base, I made her Chicken Curry (at Madras strength), and I found the results so infinitely superior to anything I had achieved previously that I was hooked. But of course I didn't just re-do that same recipe time after time; almost immediately I doubled the volume of base per unit of chicken, and doubled the quantity of spices per unit of base, and later eliminated the garam masala and introduced chopped coriander stalks : the result is what I call Chicken Madras KD1/PT (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5223.0). I really would appreciate it if you would try this recipe when you feel so inclined and then let me know what you think.
Even the kd base needs modifying to become acceptable.
There I definitely disagree, although recent experiments are beginning to suggest that the quantity of tomato can be reduced
Explain what you mean by punjabi heritage? do you mean cooking knowlege ?
Yes, she learned to cook at her mother's knee, as do many of us, and by the age of 12 she was frequently cooking for her entire family. [1] (http://www.thecurrysecret.co.uk/About kris Dhillon/)
where is the evidence of this cookery knowledge kris has from this heritage?
I don't have evidence : I simply have a belief that if one is raised in (say) a Punjabi culture, and learns to cook Punjabi food from an early age, one will automatically have a head start on anyone from (say) a European culture who tries to learn Punjabi cooking later in life.
** Phil.
[1] http://www.thecurrysecret.co.uk/About kris Dhillon/ (http://www.thecurrysecret.co.uk/About kris Dhillon/)
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A big problem with the KD1 book is the use of her garam masala as the main spice mix for most of the curries.
Yes, but she also provides her own recipe for garam masala : how many of us can, in all honesty, say that we made her garam masala for use with her recipes ? I cannot : I had generic garam masala in my spice cupboard, and I used that (and later rejected it as not adding anything beneficial).
I don't think you would ever get close to BIR if you followed her recipes to the letter.
As I said in my preceding reply, I got closer to BIR by reading and following The Curry Secret than I had previously managed in over thirty years of trying. If this forum had existed at that time, I might have achieved comparable (or even better) results using the combined wisdom to be found here : who knows ?
** Phil.
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Hi Phil,
I bought the KD1 book just before I discovered this forum. In all honesty I have never made a KD1 recipe but one look at the garam masala recipe was enough to make me think it was a bad idea.
My first foray into BIR cooking was when I made the SnS June 2008 base and had a brief eureka moment. Like others I had tried on and off over 20 years to cook something like you get in a BIR.
Cheers,
Paul
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In all honesty I have never made a KD1 recipe but one look at the garam masala recipe was enough to make me think it was a bad idea.
Well, I have it in front of me as I write (from the 1989 edition) :
- 1 tablespoon coriander seeds
- 1 tablespoon cumin
- 1 teaspoon green cardamoms
- 1 teaspoon cloves
- 1 teaspoon black peppercorns
- 2 sticks cinnamon
- 2 bay leaves
- 1/2 small nutmeg
- 4 black cardamom
Now I don't claim to be an expert on garam marala recipes, but I can see nothing in this that would seem exceptionable, nor does it appear to differ significantly from the garam masala recipes that have been posted here : what is it about Kris's recipe that puts you off, Paul ?
** Phil.
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Hi Phil,
I think a lot of the BIR taste is from spice mixes containing predominantly: Turmeric, corriander powder, cumin powder, some commercial curry powder, maybe some paprika, maybe ginger powder and maybe garlic powder.
I can't see this being replaced with a powder that contains significant amounts of clove, cardamom (both green and black) and nutmeg.
I've got all the ingredients to make the KD1 garam masala so maybe one day I'll make some up but as the primary spice mix in a curry I can't see this working for me.
Cheers,
Paul
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I think a lot of the BIR taste is from spice mixes containing predominantly: Turmeric, corriander powder, cumin powder, some commercial curry powder, maybe some paprika, maybe ginger powder and maybe garlic powder.
I can't see this being replaced with a powder that contains significant amounts of clove, cardamom (both green and black) and nutmeg.
I've got all the ingredients to make the KD1 garam masala so maybe one day I'll make some up but as the primary spice mix in a curry I can't see this working for me.
Hallo Paul : there is definitely some confusion going on here ! Garam masala, whether Kris Dhillion's or anyone else's, is not intended to be "the primary spice mix in a curry"; it is a trace ingredient, added when all cooking has finished, to add a certain "something" to the finished dish. The primary spice mix would, in my experience, contain chilli, cumin and fenugreek, with perhaps turmeric and paprika creeping in via the base. For a richer, fuller, flavour, I would replace the chilli with Bassar curry masala, which is totally unlike any garam masala I have ever seen. Does this help to explain things ?
** Phil.
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Hi Phil, I'm at work so I can't pick up the book right now. From memory I recall that a lot of the KD1 curry recipes seemed to use the GM above any other spice ingredients.
I'll have a look when I get home later.
I know other Cr0 members have commented on replacing the GM with a "normal" BIR spice mix to achieve something more akin to BIR flavours with reference to KD1.
Yes I know how GM is normally meant to be used and like a lot of other Cr0 members I've become wary of it through past cooking experience.
Paul
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Paul i totally agree with your comments on the predominent spices for bir cookery. garam masalla is just not that key to bir cooking. In fact i think i could happliy produce most of my favourite bir dishes with virtually none of the garam spices if i was forced to.
thats not to say i dont use cardoman, clove, cinemon, dried mint, and other garam masalla spices, but i use up far less of these than i do tumeric, cumin, coriender, paprika, etc.
I watched a bir chef produce around 50 dishes over a few weeks of obsrvations. Basically i noticed tumeric is used more than we realise in many dishes. they use huge amounts of spice mix as well (tumeric, coriander, cumin paprika ). but gm was only used in veg dishes.
The kris dillon gm isnt even that great. i prefer the pat chapman gm anyday. that works so well in ashoka pre cooked lamb. you guys should try it
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Guys try my jalfrezzi post for kd1 base. I would advise any member who uses kd1 base to try this, its very tasty and i make it often. I posted it in main dishes section under jalfrezi (obviously !!) cheers DD
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just for additional info have attached link to real BIR base sample that i was given by my local TA. they took it out of the pot in front of my eyes - it is 100% what they use to cook with.
for anyone who is still uncertain about base and serious about what they want to achieve then they really must try and get a sample themselves. it was a key learning point for myself. most bases on the site don't produce this result.
the colour looks very similar to solarplace's sample.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3607.msg32420#msg32420 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3607.msg32420#msg32420)
copy of pic:
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/3965fee14d96e0aac19105ce2df9844d.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#3965fee14d96e0aac19105ce2df9844d.jpg)
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just for additional info have attached link to real BIR base sample that i was given by my local TA.... most bases on the site don't produce this result. the colour looks very similar to solarplace's sample.
But what about flavour, Jerry ? Although I have never tasted my own base, I imagine that you tried this one, and wonder which base, if any, on this site, is closest in flavour to the TA base ?
** Phil.
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Phil,
the flavour is very different. i'd perhaps call it "characteristics" which are down to the longer cooking and not the ingredients or recipe. i feel that most base recipes stop after blending or say 1 hr or less of cooking. the difference happens by cooking on after blending for at least 1 hr. i think the addition of water at or after blending also makes this difference.
i cook all bases by the same method: all ingredients in, simmer 2 hrs, blend, add more water, simmer 2hrs.
the important thing is that it works for any base. i cook the saffron and rajver by exactly the same method.
this is a sort of standard end point ie after blending
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/8a9643cdeadb9d3e71b8707b85ddca8a.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#8a9643cdeadb9d3e71b8707b85ddca8a.jpg)
this is what to aim for from the after blending simmer
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/2983fe63d4b7be478a848e320708d6b8.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#2983fe63d4b7be478a848e320708d6b8.jpg)
this post gives more detail.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3462.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3462.0)
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this is a sort of standard end point ie after blending
...
this is what to aim for from the after blending simmer
Very interesting : it is quite clear from your photographs that one of the changes that occurs after prolonged post-blending simmering is a far smoother consistency. Yet when I think of your photographs of the Madras & Vindaloo (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5224.msg51715#msg51715) posted recently, their texture looks closer to that achieved immediately post-blending rather than after further prolonged simmering. Do you think that this is the result of adding the other ingredients that are needed to convert a base sauce into a fully fledged curry ?
** Phil.
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Yes, she learned to cook at her mother's knee, as do many of us, and by the age of 12 she was frequently cooking for her entire family.
How do you know? It might be true or it might be total fiction, just like I suspect the story behind 'Undercover Curry' is - a good tale designed to get people interested in the book. Even her photo and gender might be made up, for all we know.
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How do you know? It might be true or it might be total fiction, just like I suspect the story behind 'Undercover Curry' is - a good tale designed to get people interested in the book. Even her photo and gender might be made up, for all we know.
Yes, and you might be Mrs Thatcher, posting under a pseudonym. But we give you the benefit of the doubt, and I for one do the same for Kris Dhillon ;D
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Phil,
you're right. i work on 300ml of base reducing to 200ml during the frying process. the water that is given off during this frying returns the base to a consistency that will stand up "soft peak".
i am 100% sure the other ingredients do have an effect in conversion to the fully fledged curry. i feel the water and the oil during this frying also plays it's part. i 1st came across it from Admins Jalfrezi post.
in terms of trying to sum up base in just a few words - it must not be like soup, it's nice to taste but it's still a long way from the finished article.
the KD1 base is a very good example of the characteristics in many respects (proportion of onion). i made it for years before coming across a Balti Book which added in whole spice and a more diverse base spicing. then after joining this site i became aware of how other veg and ingredients along with technique can lift the base further.
i felt it was important to try out a selection of bases from the site to get a good overall understanding of what the various additions omissions do. the use of fresh coriander in base for example was a real inspiration and a post on coriander root to sort of top it off.
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it's feels difficult discussing KD for me. she being a member and me being a big fan.
my gut feeling is that she's knows a lot more than is published. i might just be that life has made me a real sceptic.
i have the KD2 book along with the Gurkha's book and i've still not made a tap from each - new year resolution eh.
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How do you know? It might be true or it might be total fiction, just like I suspect the story behind 'Undercover Curry' is - a good tale designed to get people interested in the book. Even her photo and gender might be made up, for all we know.
Yes, and you might be Mrs Thatcher, posting under a pseudonym. But we give you the benefit of the doubt, and I for one do the same for Kris Dhillon ;D
The big difference is that I'm not trying to make money by taking anyone for a ride, like the authors of most books claiming to reveal BIR secrets.
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The big difference is that I'm not trying to make money by taking anyone for a ride, like the authors of most books claiming to reveal BIR secrets.
Have you any reason to believe that Kris falls into that category, George ? I have said before, and I will say it again here, that had it not been for Kris Dhillon's 1989 The Curry Secret, my "curries" would still be the rubbishy inedible things they were for over thirty years. I just had to make one curry from Kris's book to realise that BIR was finally within my grasp. I don't follow her recipes to the letter (although I did initially, until I had the confidence to start to experiment) but I learned more from her than I had learned in over thirty years of experimentation based on traditional Indian recipe books (E P Veerasawmy, Madhur Jaffrey, and all the other "authorities" that I consulted). So as far as I am concerned, Kris is the real thing : you are entitled to your doubts, but I for one do not share them.
** Phil.
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The big difference is that I'm not trying to make money by taking anyone for a ride, like the authors of most books claiming to reveal BIR secrets.
Have you any reason to believe that Kris falls into that category, George ? .... So as far as I am concerned, Kris is the real thing : you are entitled to your doubts, but I for one do not share them.
Here's another reason to hope that, some day, we might get to taste each other's attempts at producing BIR type dishes (my 'Come Dine' proposal). It's difficult to know whether our tastes differ, whether one of us is more easily pleased, whether the quality of the restaurants we've dined at are miles apart, or any number of other differences on perspective.
I agree that in the 1980s, Kris took us a leap forward by describing the concept of a base sauce. I thank her for that, but not for much else. I never managed to produce anything close to BIR quality dishes from her final recipes, not that I tried many recipes after a few disappointments.
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My first post on CRO although i have "lurked on the site for well over a year now. But having read this thread i felt the need to comment. Like many on here I have been in search of the way to create the BIR taste that we all are looking for; that mystic ingredient or method that still seems to elude us all. Some 25 or more years now I too have been looking for the holy grail.
This site is a mine of information, methods, experiences, recipes and tips. Above all, it is a place where like minded people with one common interest gather, pool and share their information with others in the belief that one day, somebody will make that crucial breakthrough.
But for the likes of KD and Pat Chapman, i too would be probably still be fumbling around in the wilderness, as i believe would many of us. Had our desire to push on in search of our common goal not been spurred on by the likes of these individuals, would this site even exist?? Yes, both are shrewd business people. They spotted the niche that any successful business person must if they are to succeed. But by doing so they gave many of us what we needed - vital information which has stood the test of time and which many of us still use today, albeit adding our own interpretation through experience and the learnings of others. Long may this continue. This is a terrific site with many many seriously committed members, all of whom are here for the same reason. It does however, sadden me, when I see unnecessary personal attacks on any individual who has made a contribution to our understanding of the mysteries of the BIR kitchen.
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I couldn't agree with you more Curryhell.
That's the reason I stopped frequenting this site after being a member for over 4 years. A few simpletons who think if it's not done their way then it shouldn't be done at all, spoil it for the rest of the members.......
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My first post on CRO although i have "lurked on the site for well over a year now.
I couldn't agree less with your comment that they provided 'vital information which stood the test of time'. Perhaps you don't like critical film reviews or anything.
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But for the likes of KD and Pat Chapman, i too would be probably still be fumbling around in the wilderness, as i believe would many of us. Had our desire to push on in search of our common goal not been spurred on by the likes of these individuals, would this site even exist?? Yes, both are shrewd business people. They spotted the niche that any successful business person must if they are to succeed. But by doing so they gave many of us what we needed - vital information which has stood the test of time and which many of us still use today, albeit adding our own interpretation through experience and the learnings of others. Long may this continue. This is a terrific site with many many seriously committed members, all of whom are here for the same reason. It does however, sadden me, when I see unnecessary personal attacks on any individual who has made a contribution to our understanding of the mysteries of the BIR kitchen.
Hear hear.
** Phil.
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Perhaps you don't like critical film reviews or anything.
You just can't help yourself can you George.
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Thankfully we are not all alike. And everybody is still entitled to their own opinion, currently. As for criticism, whenever it is constructive, it is always positive. Without it, we will never improve. But i am a firm believer in giving credit where credit is due and acknowledging when somebody has a made a contribution.
Having embarked on this journey some 25 year ago or more, virtually nothing existed to show interested curry eaters and "would be" curry chefs the way, until that is, these two individuals put pen to paper. For that, i, and i am sure many others, are and always will be eternally grateful. That is not to say, that we have stood still. This site's content and its members endless contributions are living proof of that.
Unfortunately, it is human nature that some individuals always feel the need to berate others. All are entitled to their own opinion. It is for the individual to decided whose opinions are those worth listening to and those which are of no consequence.
During the last year I have spent countless hours reading articles, threads etc submitted by members and i must say have had end less hours fun doing so. Fortunately, there are only a handful of self appointed experts who seem to have a high opinion of themselves. This number is far outweighed by the many polite,welcoming, enthusiastic and knowledgeable amateur BIR chefs that frequent the site. I have no intention of depriving myselfself of the huge knowledge base that CRO is, because of such individuals. There is no other alternative site which offers so much for free and is so simple to use.
Enough time spent on this subject I think :-X. It is now time to do what this site is all about - BIR cooking and getting in the kitchen and making those spoons clunk against the frying pan. Chicken Vindaloo, saag bhaji and pilau rice for me tonight, I think :-*. Good luck and good cooking to you all.
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Here Here!!!!!! Curryhell :)
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Perhaps you don't like critical film reviews or anything.
You just can't help yourself can you George.
So are you a KD and PC supporter, as well? Anyone is entitled to their views. Let's debate them. What's wrong, in my opinion is when someone signs up and in their first post, states or implies that it's out of order to hold such views (i.e. that KD and PC recipes aren't very good, with a few exceptions).
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Chicken Vindaloo, saag bhaji and pilau rice for me tonight, I think :-*. Good luck and good cooking to you all.
[/quote]
I made Garlic Chilli Chicken and Chicken Kashmiri Masala last night, and there's plenty left for tonight too!! :)
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So are you a KD and PC supporter, as well? Anyone is entitled to their views. Let's debate them. What's wrong, in my opinion is when someone signs up and in their first post, states or implies that it's out of order to hold such views (i.e. that KD and PC recipes aren't very good, with a few exceptions).
But nobody has done any such thing, George. What Curryhell actually wrote was "It does however, sadden me, when I see unnecessary personal attacks on any individual who has made a contribution to our understanding of the mysteries of the BIR kitchen.". Thus Curryhell is clearly not challenging your right to hold the views that you do; he (or she) is simply stating that it saddens him (her) when you openly state them on the forum.
It is (in my opinion) no different to holding even more radical views, such as those shared by (say) the National Front; no-one would suggest for one second that you are not entitled to hold those views, but if you were to post them on a forum that was regularly used by Pakistanis. your actions could clearly create ill-feeling. And it is the same here : many of us hold Kris Dhillon in great respect, for her ground-breaking work in publishing The Curry Secret. And therefore it saddens us when we see her attacked, with neither proof nor justification, on the basis that "she is solely in it for the money".
** Phil.
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It is (in my opinion) no different to holding even more radical views, such as those shared by (say) the National Front; no-one would suggest for one second that you are not entitled to hold those views, but if you were to post them on a forum that was regularly used by Pakistanis. your actions could clearly create ill-feeling. And it is the same here : many of us hold Kris Dhillon in great respect, for her ground-breaking work in publishing The Curry Secret. And therefore it saddens us when we see her attacked, with neither proof nor justification, on the basis that "she is solely in it for the money"
This is REALLY worrying. You are comparing my poor opinion of most of the KD and PC recipes as somehow comparable to support for extreme political groups? I'm sure there have been many people at this forum before who've shared my low regard for most KD and PC recipes. If they were so good, there would not have been such a need for this forum? The proof and justification were the results in my own kitchen.
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This is REALLY worrying. You are comparing my poor opinion of most of the KD and PC recipes as somehow comparable to support for extreme political groups?
No, George, I'm not : I'm simply saying that no-one is challenging your right to hold whatever views (on curries, immigration, the rights of women, or any other topic) you see fit -- all we are saying is that the repetition of such views, in a forum where these views are not universally shared, is something that begins to niggle after a while ...
** Phil.
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This is REALLY worrying. You are comparing my poor opinion of most of the KD and PC recipes as somehow comparable to support for extreme political groups?
No, George, I'm not : I'm simply saying that no-one is challenging your right to hold whatever views (on curries, immigration, the rights of women, or any other topic) you see fit -- all we are saying is that the repetition of such views, in a forum where these views are not universally shared, is something that begins to niggle after a while ...
I'm fairly sure they were widely held views a few years ago but, as most of those members have moved on, perhaps the 'new' batch of members hold a different view. Or perhaps they don't. If 1000 members responded to a poll, it would give a better idea. I'm not going to be hushed up by you or anyone else, if I want to say how disappointed I was with KD1 (apart from the base sauce) and almost everything ever published by PC, which I view as no more than a shrewd money making venture.
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This is REALLY worrying. You are comparing my poor opinion of most of the KD and PC recipes as somehow comparable to support for extreme political groups?
You have taken this comment too literally, I took it to mean that it was a metaphor for saying it is one thing to hold opinions and another thing to express them undiplomatically and therefore offend people at the same time.
I'm sure there have been many people at this forum before who've shared my low regard for most KD and PC recipes.
That may (or may not) be the case but they are able to express them appropriately.
If they were so good, there would not have been such a need for this forum?
This is not even logical, the forum reflects the views of lots of sources and recipes not just KD and PC.
The proof and justification were the results in my own kitchen.
Proof of what - that you don't like KD's recipes? Other will disagree so all you are proving is your own opinions to yourself.
Does all of this have to be so black and white George? You express opinions as if they are fact and do so far too aggressively. By the way that's not a fact, it's just my opinion. You are doing quite a good job of alienating yourself from some members at the moment but I expect your response to this is that you don't really give a damn. Again just my opinion.
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I expect your response to this is that you don't really give a damn. Again just my opinion.
You're right there. I realise that I disagree with the mindset and whole way of thinking of certain members here, probably including you. The present mix of members is not as good as it was a few years ago. When did you join?
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I realise that I disagree with the mindset and whole way of thinking of certain members here, probably including you.
Again that's a very all or nothing, black or white response George. I really don't know if you disagree with my mindset about Indian cookery, but I do take issue about the way you dismiss people's opnions.
The present mix of members is not as good as it was a few years ago. When did you join?
A perfect example of dismissing the rest of the forum by implication. Boy George it must be a depressing place having to put up with us sub-standard members.
George you have a member of this forum long enough to know where to find out when I joined.
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If I may, I'd like to give my opinion on KD1.
Ok, like others, I agree, KD1 gave us a base sauce recipe that seemed to eluded many amateur curry cooks for so long. As far as a base sauce goes, I think it comparable to many in terms of quality. I have always been convinced that the base sauce is less important to the end dish than say the spice mix or the technique, the kd base confirms this theory to me.
As for the rest of the book (of which I have both the curry secret and the new curry secret) I'm not a fan. Now I have not cooked everything from each, so maybe I'm being a tad unfair but, I just don't like the format of either of them. Take for instance;
Most recipes are for 3-4 people. This for me is not typical BIR way of cooking. Individual portions seem to be the BIR way. so if I break down one of her recipes to cook as an individual portion, this is what I end up with;
Chicken Jal Frezi:
175g chicken breast
0.25 tsp turmeric
0.25 tsp grated ginger
0.5 tsp garam masala
0.25 tsp salt
0.125 tsp of chili powder
1 tbsp of veg oil
0.5 medium onion, cut into 2.5cm pieces
0.5 medium green pepper, cut into 2.5cm pieces
1 medium ripe tomato cut into quarters
0.25 of a green chili, chopped
1 tsp of tomato paste
37.5ml of curry base
Fresh coriander to garnish.
Ok, This is a recipe scaled down for 1 person based on the original being for 3-4 people. Yes I've used the smallest scale of 1 quarter, as it better demonstrates my problem with the recipe.
I know for an absolute certainty, that this would not give me the kind of Jal Frezi that I'm used to. 37.5ml of base sauce is almost 1 9th of what I usually use, for a start. I'm ok with the onion and pepper but I wouldn't use a whole tomato, perhaps half at the most. Fresh chili's, I need at least 5 in a Jal Frezi split length ways as a minimum. 0.125 tsp of chili powder? sorry, 1 level tsp at the very least for me. 1 tbsp of oil? a good Jal Frezi needs at least 3 tbsp of oil, surely?
Most of the recipes from the book are typical of these quantities. Yes I could increase but if I was a novice cook, and bought this book to take me as close to BIR as possible, I'd feel a little let down with the end result.
The chicken tikka recipe is shocking;
3 large chicken fillets
4 tbsp plain yogurt
0.5 tsp chilli powder
0.5 tsp salt
2 tsp cooking oil
Pinch of yellow food colouring.
Where is the flavour coming from? The ashoka precooked chicken will no doubt give the same flavour but it isn't masquerading as a tikka.
Luckily for me, I didn't buy any of the KD books to get me started, I bought them purely to build up my library, so to speak, on all things curry related. I know it may not sound like it, but I'm very glad I did.
Please don't take this as an attack on Kris, it isn't, it's just my view on what I think her books bring to the party, in my opinion.
Hope my views cause no offence to either Kris or her fans.
Ray :)
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Hope my views cause no offence to either Kris or her fans.
I doubt it Ray because this is a very analytical post and you express, in a balanced way, both the positives and negatives of the KD approach. I am entirely in agreement with your comments about the amount of base required, it is well short of what I would use in a single recipe and would produce a dry, almost sauceless curry, as a result.
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I doubt it Ray because this is a very analytical post and you express, in a balanced way, both the positives and negatives of the KD approach.
Exactly. It is informed criticism rather than blanket dismissal. As I have written elsewhere, I too find it necessary to modify Kris's recipes in order to achieve results that I regard as acceptable. But that in no way makes me think less of her : she inspired me, and shewed me (as no-one had done before) that it was possible to re-create BIR in the domestic kitchen without needing Indic blood in one's veins. And I also think that she erred on the right side (almost certainly deliberately); it is very easy to make one of her recipes, try it, and then think "If I were to add a little more ..., this could be quite good.". But if she'd overspiced things from the outset, she could so easily have alienated anyone who followed her to the letter, to the point where they would simply not try one of her recipes again.
My two penn'orth, and a view which I hope won't annoy any other forum members, even those who joined before Kris was born :)
** Phil.
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Hi Stephen,
That's exactly my point. I have no problems with the ingredients as such, well, maybe the use of garam masala, over spice masala but apart from that, it's just the quantities that I struggle with.
I would have like to have seen this addressed in the New Curry Secret, but unfortunately, the book edges a little further away from BIR as appose to it being closer IMO.
I know Phil has much success with KD but by his own admission, he has altered things to suit, which is great, and what we all could do. Trying the recipes as spec though, won't, IMO, give a good BIR result first time round.
Ray :)
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Yeah the New Curry Secret moves a bit away from mainstream BIR although I've made a couple of recipes and found them very tasty, but not, as you say, really BIR.
That's not a criticism though because BIR is not the be all and end all of Indian cookery, it's only a way of doing things and one off dishes have their place in my kitchen anyway.
I have Harvey Day's compendium of curry books which would have been written in the 1950s and 1960s. Though I don't cook from them I love reading them from from time to time as they are part of this country's heritage and reflect people's need to introduce curries into their households. We've moved a long way since then.
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If I may, I'd like to give my opinion on KD1. Ok, like others, I agree, KD1 gave us a base sauce recipe that seemed to eluded many amateur curry cooks for so long. As far as a base sauce goes, I think it comparable to many in terms of quality. I have always been convinced that the base sauce is less important to the end dish than say the spice mix or the technique, the kd base confirms this theory to me. As for the rest of the book (of which I have both the curry secret and the new curry secret) I'm not a fan. Now I have not cooked everything from each, so maybe I'm being a tad unfair but, I just don't like the format of either of them. ....Please don't take this as an attack on Kris, it isn't, it's just my view on what I think her books bring to the party, in my opinion....Hope my views cause no offence to either Kris or her fans.
Ray's comments above, pretty much sum up my own feelings, as I stated them but, instead of other members politely stating that they disagree and rather like KD's recipes, they launched personal attacks on me, with Phil comparing my views to views of extreme right wing political parties. It's deeply offensive. This was hours after Ray, very sensibly, had suggested we be nice to each other. Then we have a new member attacking me in his very first post, which is also out of order. Attacking me, just because I share Ray's views, and lots of other members' views, that KD and PC books leave a lot to be desired.
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I love reading them from from time to time as they are part of this country's heritage and reflect people's need to introduce curries into their households. We've moved a long way since then.
Thank goodness we have : do you remember just how awful an English curry was ? Bright yellow, tasting of pure raw spices, and with sultanas and raisins (presumably intended to disguise just how disgusting it would have been without !).
** Phil.
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they launched personal attacks on me, with Phil comparing my views to views of extreme right wing political parties. It's deeply offensive.
George, you really need to read what others write. Please re-read my message, and you will see that there was no comparison whatsoever between your views on KD or PC and the views of a National Front member on the very people whose curries we are so desperate to emulate. The comparison was between holding views (which we all agree is fine, no matter what those views might be) and expressing them repeatedly in a forum where it clear that those views are offensive to others. That was the comparison I made, as I am sure you will agree when you have re-read my message and those of others who commented subsequently.
** Phil.
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Ray's comments above, pretty much sum up my own feelings, as I stated them
Really George? I must have been reading the wrong posts then.
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[quote author=Phil (Chaa006) link=topic=4851.msg52230#msg52230
Thank goodness we have : do you remember just how awful an English curry was ? Bright yellow, tasting of pure raw spices, and with sultanas and raisins (presumably intended to disguise just how disgusting it would have been without !).
[/quote]
My early memories of curries were the Vesta packets and a spice paste by Lea & Perrins that you added chicken and water to. After that it would have been a Chinese takeway curry, then curry nirvana with my first ever Indian - a Chicken Madras.
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Stephen/Phil
I also have a book entitled 'Indian Cooking by Savitri Chowdhary' It was first published in 1954 but my copy is from 1967.
I don't cook from it but I love reading it. Just some of the phrases are amazing and give you a flavour of how people needed to improvise back when alot of what we now take for granted, just wasn't available back then.
This particular quote from the book always raises a smile;
In London, there are three or four well known Indian grocery shops which supply most of the ingredients. But apart from this, I have been surprised to find that I can obtain most of the things I need from my local grocer, chemist or corn merchant[/b]
So the next time you guy's are picking up your prescriptions, don't forget to get your "deggi mirch & panch poran" whilst you are there ;D
Ray ;D
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Can just imagine the guys (and gals) from the forum all turning up at Boots and saying, excuse me do you have any red or yellow food colouring please?
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All very entertaining Guys ::) but solarsplace is still waiting for a discussion on his Curry Base !
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Hi emin-j,
All very entertaining Guys ::) but solarsplace is still waiting for a discussion on his Curry Base !
Yes, you are correct, the thread, once again has digressed. I think it did get discussed but unfortunately the thread deteriorated into this.
For what it's worth, I have no problem with using broccoli, caulies or what ever, as long as it works for you, then go for it, I say.
Ray :)
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Whilst it's not for me, you could add cauli, broccolli or brussel sprouts to a base as far as I'm concerned, and I would be interested to hear the results.
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Whilst it's not for me, you could add cauli, broccolli or brussel sprouts to a base as far as I'm concerned, and I would be interested to hear the results.
Broccoli ??? Cauli ??? I think Razor and Mr Lindsay have been on the Sauce ! ;D
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Whilst it's not for me, you could add cauli, broccolli or brussel sprouts to a base as far as I'm concerned, and I would be interested to hear the results.
Broccoli ??? Cauli ??? I think Razor and Mr Lindsay have been on the Sauce ! ;D
Oops, I think I'm talking about another base here ;D ;D
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maybe the chateauneuf du pape had something to do with it lol
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As I live very close to North Aldershot I decided to try out India Raj, I ordered a vindaloo, jalfrezi, biriyani and tandoori chicken.
The biriyani vegetable curry just tasted like any one of the good bases from this website+vegetables, no additional flavour really.
I thought the jalfrezi and vindaloo were a bit similar to CA's recipes with Razor base+spice mix.
And I know this sounds strange but the really funny thing was that their vindaloo smells exactly like Thai Massaman curry!
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As I live very close to North Aldershot I decided to try out India Raj, I ordered a vindaloo, jalfrezi, biriyani and tandoori chicken.
The biriyani vegetable curry just tasted like any one of the good bases from this website+vegetables, no additional flavour really.
I thought the jalfrezi and vindaloo were a bit similar to CA's recipes with Razor base+spice mix.
And I know this sounds strange but the really funny thing was that their vindaloo smells exactly like Thai Massaman curry!
Hi formulate
Thank you for taking the time to try the TA and report back! - did you enjoy your meal from the TA. Must admits I only usually ever have their Jalfrezi and Vindaloo and when the chef is on form I personally really enjoy them.
Sounds like you have been cooking curry's for quite a while then? how do you feel your efforts fair so far?
I would love to be able to replicate the India Raj's Vindaloo, but something still eludes me :( - do you feel you have some knowledge that could replicate it or get close then?
Regards
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Razor,
it was very interesting to read your opinions on the first Kris Dhillon book. I made Kris' base for the first time a couple of months ago, and was really really positively surprised with the dish I made (the CTM, just for the record). It was really good. With this particular recipe, I think it is hard to improve.
I tried the Jalfrezi, too, and the amount of veggies is enormous and well, it doesn't really work. The chicken curry recipe was good in my opinion.
The marinade: I was thinking exactly the same thing as you when I was making the marinade, that it had way too little ingredients, just salt, yoghurt, chili and oil. But the end result was really great. Wow. You should give it a try.
It would be really interesting to try a bare-bones approach to making curries; ie. make curries (and base sauces) with just the bare essentials of ingredients, and then build from there to see what each ingredient adds. All recipes on this site are very complicated and when you make it you think okay, this is good but probably have a lot of ingredients in there that don't really do a lot for the curry.
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It would be really interesting to try a bare-bones approach to making curries; ie. make curries (and base sauces) with just the bare essentials of ingredients, and then build from there to see what each ingredient adds. All recipes on this site are very complicated and when you make it you think okay, this is good but probably have a lot of ingredients in there that don't really do a lot for the curry.
Agreed !
** Phil.
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It may be worth mentioning about the slivers of onion. a while back there were some videos of currys being cooked live on a webcam, I think we all had a look and crashed the server! sorry I can't remember the thread, however at one point in the video I noticed that one of the chefs seemed to have a wok with something that looked like onions deep frying, they were not brown but pale in colour, he then added them and the oil to the large pan of boiling base.
Just thought I would mention it.
Martin :)